Will you wear white tomorrow?

So because baby you wasn't killed, you don't are about the 115,000 babies who are killed every day? Or the 50,000,000 babies who have been killed since 1973? So what, do you also not care about millions of people in the world who starve to death every day? Soldiers in Iraq? As long as their problems don't affect your life, they're just random lives who will never matter. Am I right? You disgust me.

@Peyton: I do feel sorry for them. But as P said, if they get born into a crappy life, then they still get the opportunity to decide for themselves if they want out. And if no human lives are lost, then what is this? A fetus born prematurely at 12 weeks? And the limit for abortion is 24! How can you say that this isn't human? What? It's too small? I was too small when I was born. Prove that this isn't human and then I will give what you said about no lives being lost into consideration.




@Jayn: Your reasoning is somewhat flawed. I, being heterosexual, support Gay Rights. And besides, Gay Rights Day doesn't make heteros feel like bad people. And even so, if you don't make pro-choicers feel like murderers, how are you going to change them?

 

I think that if you have the baby in your tummy for nine months, you should make the choice whether or not you actually want to have it in there.
I know there are many couples out there that aren't capable of having children themselves and would love to adopt, but that is purely on the Mother's shoulders whether or not they want to do that. I just know that if I do get pregnant now or in the upcoming years, I would certainly be aborting that baby. That baby does not need to be put in this situation of life, and at my young age; I'm not ready to be a Mother. Not at all. I find I am Pro-Choice in the matter.

 

For the record guys, I am pro-choice. I just dislike argument of aborting to save the child from a potentially horrible life. I've got nothing against killing babies/foetuses, but if you do, I'd much rather it wasn't justified as being in the child's best interests. We don't euthanise people, even in the case of them begging for death. I don't see why the rules should be so different for foetuses, that what's considered abhorrent, even for the sick and ailing, is thought of as the best option for them. Even if we agree that they have less rights than fully-formed humans, there's no sense to that idea of morality.

 

P has hit most of the points I wanted to.

A note on the rape situation. Isn't that an exception that can be covered in court? The problem with flaunting all these worst case scenearios around is that they form the rules around them. Let me point out another extreme. A girl, 26, from a wealthy Christian home is engaged and she gets pregnant before they are married. The girl is embarassed about this since her parrents would not want her having sex yet. She then aborts the baby to hide it. In this case neither the mother or child were in any danger from the pregnancy and the child would really have an unfair advantage at having a good life.Isn't this just as fair an example to bring up as the lower class rape victim? It simply favors the other side.

I'm not entirely anti-abortion. But I have to say there at least needs to be strict rules about what cases they can be allowed in. As Jayn pointed out, there are other options. Destroying this fetus should be a last resort.

 

Change them? if im taking this in the correct context (you wanting to change people merely for them having a different opinion) then you disgust me.

 

You've never heard of people trying to change other people's minds? What about political campaigns that try to change people to their side? Or propaganda, the greatest weapon ever invented. Television commercials too. Are you disgusted by those as well? What I'm doing is no different from any advertisement. I'm aggressively stating my views in such a way that people with different views will come to my side. So, if I'm right about the context you're thinking of, you are taking it in the correct context. But it's not nearly as disgusting as killing a baby.

@Rissy: So to you, pregnancy is nothing more than an STD? Okay then. Just remember who you're killing.

Also, have you heard the saying: You should only kill if you are prepared to be killed? I think this applies quite nicely.


@P: I agree with you there. If you're afraid the kid is going to have a bad life, then you can always go for adoption. If you're not ready for kids, you can put them up for adoption. It may be more difficult than killing it, but it is FAR easier for the original parents than what the media shows.

Lastly, I am Pro-Choice. But only one choice. The choice for life.

 

People kill people every day in nearly horrible and inhuman ways. Killing a baby is just killing a human without giving it a chance to live. In a sense, killing a child is the same is killing any other human. Killing a full grown adult is basically the same thing but not giving them a chance to live out the rest of their lives. For example people are raped and killed all the time. So you're saying that fighting for a babies life to live instead of fighting for the justice of what's happening to children and adults today? You're just as disgusting as the rest.

 

A fully grown human can defend himself. A baby cannot. A fully grown human can do everything in his power to deter her attacker. A baby has no power. A fully grown man has lived and experienced significantly more than a baby. A womb-bound baby has yet to live or experience anything short of a dark space with less than a squared meter to move around in. And besides, abortion completely goes against natural selection. Murder of fully grown humans does not. A fully grown man has a fully developed phenotype and thus can be killed because his traits are not favorable under today's conditions. A baby, especially one still in the womb, has not yet developed any traits that are favorable or unfavorable. Abortion is a clear violation of evolutionary law!

And before you say anything, Pro-Life means Pro-Life, not just Anti-Abortion. I'm against all forms of murder, including but not limited to: Euthenasia, suicide, abortion, genocide, and serial killing.

For you prochoicers who are into religion, go to Jeremiah 1:5. Interesting stuff, no?

 

@9001-
What about the Jewish babies and Jewish pregnant women who got killed in the Holocaust? The Jewish babies who were killed were born and never got the chance of having a decent childhood. The babies to the Jewish pregnant women who got killed never even had the chance to be born. So, are you saying that the Jewish pregnant women who got killed because they were pregnant did it by choice? Are you saying that they got an abortion? You should think about the past where women were killed because they were pregnant before you bash out against those who are pro-choice. I can say that I am partly pro-choice. I do agree that abortion is wrong, but if a woman got raped, she should be allowed to get an abortion. That is mainly for women who are too young to buy "morning after" pills that would prevent them from getting pregnant if they were raped.

About both of the colored sections-
Genocide is in the Bible, if you didn't know. I forgot where it was said, but the Jews were killed by the Romans and so was Jesus. It says that it happened so it is near impossible to not believe in genocide if you have read and believe in the Bible. Genocide is still apart if the world today because as we speak, people are getting killed by genocide. I understand if you do not like genocide, but you can't be completely against it because no matter how hard man tries, genocide will still be apart of the world and the traces of it will never go away. And yes, you can be not for it but being against it is hard for someone who has not been in any situation involving genocide. Holocaust survivors who were tortured by the Nazis, for example, and be completely against it because they were in an act of genocide and they are lucky to have survived it. Now if you are related to someone who is a Holocaust death/labor/concentration camp survivor, different subject. That implies what I said in the seventh sentence.

 

In the case of the Shoah, those murders are completely on the shoulders of the scum who killed the women and their babies. The women did not make the choice to be killed or to have their babies killed. Ergo, it's just one more thing on the list of what made Old Nazis (minus a SMALL minority of them) scum that deserved to be wiped from the earth and replaced with the Neo-Nazis we have now.

In the case of "Morning after" pills, I'm against that too. Condoms and other birth control too. The only case where I see abortion (or other birth control methods for that matter) as a necessary evil is when the mother is highly likely to die in childbirth.

I am completely against genocide. It is in the Bible, yes, but that doesn't mean I think it's okay. Here are the facts about genocide. People die at the hand of a single person or faction. HUGE numbers of people die. Considering the fact that I am against all forms of murder, I am against genocide. The Shoah and genocides like it aren't the only way to commit genocide. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were genocide. Granted, they were to prevent even more deaths, but they were still mass murder.

On being related to a Holocaust survivor, I am not. My grandfather, however, survived a Japanese concentration camp in Indonesia. His father is assumed to have been killed. As for myself, as ridiculous as it seems, I think I might be a Holocaust survivor reincarnated. Whenever I listen to someone who's gone through that, I connect. Not because of their vivid stories or even what happened to my grandpa. It actually feels like I had been there. Maybe I was even one of the scum who did the killing. All I know is that whenever I walk away from that assembly that I go to every so often, people are staring at me like they're worried about me. And I'm silent the whole rest of the day. First time I got this I was silent for a week. So don't tell me not to hate genocide. I have at least two, and possibly three, reasons to hate genocide in any form.

And you didn't even read Jeremiah 1:5, did you?

 

@9001
Why can't you face that most human life is full of scum and low-lives. This will never change, neither will war, genocide, or abortion. Human nature will never change ever. No matter how hard you try we will never change. There will always be one who disturbs the peace or causes some huge disaster. I can see why you want to speak your opinion but you need to learn that we are only human. We may be smart, but we are still animals. Abortion has been here forever and it won't go away until humans stop existing. Basically, humans have the power of thought which gives them the power of choice, which in turn gives them the power to kill, kill themselves, kill their child, or do whatever it is they please. As wrong as it may seem that is just how we are and you are not going to change that.

 

I try because there is less than a 100% chance of failure. That's all I need to try to achieve something that seems beyond the impossible. As long as I have saved one life, I've done something. Is it so wrong to want something and then go for it knowing that the odds of failure are 50,000,000+150,000d to 1 where d=days since I begin trying? Go on. Is it a bad thing to try to make the world better? Even if I am highly likely to fail? Let's take the one life saved example. If I've saved one life, I've done something. If I can save one life, I can save another, right? If I do that, I've done twice as much. Now think about what happens if, as a result of my actions, those women become prolife and have several other kids too. What do you think those kids will be brought up believing? And if I do this even more and end up preventing several thousand abortions, that's a thousand or more children who will be brought up like that. And then those children eventually have children. I WILL have changed the world, even if I'm not around to see it. Martin Luther King Junior did it. Why can't I?

 

@9001

What you are too stubborn to get through your thick skull is that this world is an endless cycle of grief and chaos. Martin Luther King may have changed the world but there are still rascists and hypocrites out there. As soon as you realize it's a pointless endeavor the better off you are. And who are you to say what others believe is wrong? Do you believe that you have the authority to day that abortion is wrong and should be completely wiped from the history books. Because you, sir, have no right to say such things.

 

I will try. I am stubborn because I want change. I believe in a world that can be changed because otherwise there would be no reason for me to go on. If I manage to do anything at all that changes anything in the world for the better, I've given myself a reason to continue living. If I help a homeless man to find a job, even at my own expense, I've done something in the world that has made it better.

I have just as much right call other people wrong as they do to call themselves right. The reverse is also true. If you think I'm wrong, fine. You have the right to say so and try to change my mind. I have the right to be stubborn, call you wrong, and try to change your mind.

I do not think abortion is totally wrong. It is a necessary evil if the mother is highly likely to die in childbirth. And it should not be wiped from the history books either. Bad things happen so people can learn from them. It's that simple.

 

I used to care about this issue more, but I now see it as win-lose situation. For my part, I do not see much of a problem with neglecting a child, and aborting one is just an easier way to take care of the problem before the child can develop emotions. While I do believe in a soul, or consciousness apart from the body, a child is saved from all pain in such a death. They have no concept of fear at that point, and so killing them is not so unjust as when they are adults, at the very least. The same could be said of child molestation. A child may not and most likely will not realize how wrong the thing is until the conviction is driven into them by those who would punish the perpetrator. The conviction is not their own in this way. Making the child feel that they have had something terrible done to them does not help at all. The same applies here, but that is a bit of another argument anyway. My question is, is it wrong to kill someone who does not care about whether they live or die? It could easily be argued that such children fall into this category, so the answer to that will clear some of it up before I bother with the subject any more.

 

I don't want to share my views on the thread topic right now, but I just have to say that I see these comments as quite out-of-line. And I'm really sorry if this gets the thread further off topic, but I really just have to say it. Realize that it is perhaps for the reasons that you mentioned that "9001" is trying to make a change. Even if I don't completely agree with his views, that doesn't change the fact that he has the right to do so. If he's in the wrong for trying, you're just as wrong for saying there's no point for him to try in the first place. The fact that you, perhaps unknowingly, dismissed Martin Luther King Jr's impact on today's society was just ignorant and vaguely relevant. If "9001" wants to change something that he finds is wrong, then there's no commendable reason whatsoever to say that he can't try and accomplish it, or at least make some sort of change. Society isn't fixed into a specific, unchangeable state. The basis of a successful society is change.

 

I'll leave at this, I'm done with this argument because this is literally where ever abortion argument goes. It starts with one person pushing their ideals then another arguing against it. It then ends with no one being truly right or truly wrong. So I'll leave it at this:

People have a choice. Let them choose for themselves.

 

Well, yes, but it is not really that simple. It has been and will be argued that there are two minds involved here. It is an interaction the mother and the child. Not knowing much about memory in regards to the brain, it is hard to argue that they are not yet alive. But, that is just me playing the Devil's Advocate here. Carry on...

 

Actually, it has been proven that babies do retain at least subconscious memory from while they were in the womb, and that this begins at around 12 weeks when the hippocampus in brain is fully formed. There is often very little to remember, but they are learning from a very young age.

 

How about the death penalty? I'm not trying to antagonize the situation, I just want to know your point of view, since I find it ironic of some pro-lifers supporting the death penalty, and vice versa...

How about using condoms to prevent STD's? Or those women who are not having sex, but use birth control pills to help with their menstrual cycle?

I actually did read it, but it doesn't change my opinion at all. I prefer following the overall idea of Jesus' teachings, "treat others how you would wish to be treated by others", etc., rather than following the Bible word to word. Society has changed too much for all of the rules to apply anymore.