Kingdom Hearts II What did Organization XIII do wrong?

Okay, first off, when I say the word 'evil', I'm not going from my perspective; simply the games' perspective. Our own perspective of good and evil doesn't apply, just our logic of what the games percieve it as. So, every time I say 'evil' in this post, don't think of the way I percieve it, think of the way KH percieves it.

Actually, a soul in Kingdom Hearts cosmology represents life, nothing else. Hearts are emotions, as we all know, and the only logical explanation I can think of for these "personalities" are the Nobody's own intellectual methods.

I agree with you about Xemnas wanting a heart for the darker emotions that Xehanort had (as Xemnas seems to be pro-Darkness and anti-Light when speaking of them during the final boss battle), but it's a fact that he couldn't feel any emotions himself, and I really don't think that he had any other motives other than getting a heart and becoming whole again. Yes, he used and manipulated everyone, but in the end it was only to regain his heart. Xemnas has a very different personality than that of "Ansem", Xehanort's Heartless. And this may very well be because he simply lacks the dark emotions (such as hatred, anger, etc.) that Xehanort's Heartless had.

You're making it out as if Darkness is a power and those who use it become corrupted by the power, which isn't true. Last time I checked, Darkness was the negative emotions in the KH universe, as Xehanort's Heartless believed that Darkness is the heart's true essence and the fact that Darkness can actually corrupt worlds as well. The very reason that people are corrupted by Darkness is because of its corruptive nature and the emotions it causes a person to have, which is evil from KH's perspective. Furthermore, the emotional traits of Darkness would be perceived as evil by the games. Yes, everyone has these traits, but the traits in their sole entirety (in other words, not having any Light to balance them off) represent evil in many perspectives. And I wasn't trying to say that Nobodies can't use Darkness, just that they can't control it like an "elemental affinity" of sorts, such as Riku could. And even though Heartless only relied on a mindless instinct function, technically they are evil, for the reasons I stated above. In fact, they're the embodiment of dark emotions, which would essentially make them evil. The reason Sora and Xehanort's Heartless were exceptions was because they actually managed to retain themselves and their minds even after becoming a Heartless, as Axel stated in Re:CoM.

1. As I stated earlier, that's the very reason why no one is pure good or pure evil. The balance between Darkness and Light.
2. Riku was referring to his Dark powers from the Darkness within his own heart. Since Riku seemed to use the Light within his heart to suppress the Darkness as Mickey told him, he can use the power of Darkness without being corrupted by it.
3. Again, that's the powers of Darkness, and that was also a reference to the Dark Realm.

As far as I'm concerned, Dark and Light- in the KH universe- are evil and good, respectively. Darkness is the negative emotions that corrupts hearts. Light was also referred to by Sora as if it was 'good', in essence. Mickey telling Riku that he's 'not in the Darkness anymore' was a clear reference to Riku's redemption. Every other time the two are referred to, it's as if they're good and evil, and they are in fact.

No, I'm simply applying my own logic to the facts of the KH universe. Darkness is the emotions anyone would consider evil, such as rage, hatred, etc. Light is all of the kind emotions. Since Xemnas had none of those emotions, he was neither good nor evil. Even if he was 'evil waiting to happen', he still wasn't evil by the standards of the Kingdom Hearts universe as long as he remained as a Nobody.

Those are technically emotions. Any kind of greed or thirst for power is clearly an emotion. Even being a sadist and 'enjoying' others being in pain, as you define it, is an emotion. Marluxia was out to get a heart; and obviously he didn't prefer Xemnas' method, and wanted to use the Organization members for his own method to gain a heart for himself, it's the entire reason why he chose to take over the Organization. Larxene and Saix just used their own logical methods to 'side' whoever they wanted to side with and did whatever they felt was necessary. Demyx prefered not to fight, and his "fear" was obviously an act, as that's an emotion. I'm not saying that this claim of yours is impossible, but if I actually was to accept that it is possible, I'd also have to accept that it's possible that the official cosmology of the games is flawed.

That's true, but according to the games, a person's alignment matters solely on their thoughts, emotions, intents; overall simply their mentality.

I've already stated numerous times that their actions are, or can be, considered evil, but they themselves- according to mentality- aren't. It's that simple.

Again, I'm not trying to justify them in any way, and of course I wouldn't stand by, and neither would anyone else. The point I'm trying to make is the simple fact that they were neither good nor evil. Or rather, neither Light or Dark (I know that every whole being has both within them, I'm referring to the majority). And I know that their methods were clearly wrong, as I've already stated that several times. Their desire for hearts could have been for whatever emotions they desired, and thus the goals are considered neutral. Furthermore, their very "existence" caused imbalance to the worlds, as Riku stated. I agree with you on this. The only point I'm trying to make is that since they had no emotion, the "emotions" we saw them display were either derived from their own intellectual methods and/or simply acts. Which leads me to believe that they only relied on their instinct to become whole again. Still, I would define Nobodies more as antagonists rather than villains.

Furthermore, since Darkness and Light are also synonyms (and also the very definitions) for evil and good, and from the way they're expressed in the games, I think good and evil is exactly what Nomura intended for Light and Darkness to be, arguably. Many define evil as perception, but that's not the case in the games, as we have to go by the games' perception of good and evil. We simply have to go by KH's definition in this one, which correlates directly with Light and Darkness. And don't forget the fact that they're synonyms and direct definitions of one another in the mental sense. Most likely Light and Darkness are good and evil, not by our perception, but the games' perception. If you think I'm defining 'evil' here as something purely evil without any good, then you would be correct, and Darkness wouldn't be evil.

 

HALLO!!!! Soz I have said anything for a while. I've been up to my neck in essays. Sure, blame the school work.
Jinnex, Shut up.
*BlowsRasberry*
Real Mature

This is how I see the "emotions" the men in black are supossedly lacking. Maybe that help.

Heart-basic emotions
Love, hatered, happiness, sad, anger

Body- insticts
Fear, Attraction (ie crushes), need

State of mind- pretty self explaining
Frustration, bordom, irratation, hope

Don't ask why I put in attraction.
It's cause you're looking for a loophole for you and Sai---
What?
Nothing Sai. I'll kill you Jinnex!
*snicker*

 

i made a thread like this >: (

 

Well, this is the whole problem. We both are at odds on the game's message of what 'good and evil' are. I would disagree with you that Darkness automatically equates in the terms of KH to evil, but this here is opinion. The message we need 'evil' to experience 'good' seems kind of silly to me. It's more of an issue of we experience suffering and strife and it makes us enjoy the positive things we can have when we get those. It makes much more sense to just see it as the destructive part of the universe that can lure and corrupt those of weak heart but stubborn wills that just want power, or those who are negative due to anxiety and coerced. Really I think the message of KH is that we all have -dark thoughts, feelings- and -light thoughts and feelings- and just what would happen if people could be tied into the power of that which was all around them? Obviously to me, Darkness can't be meaning simply 'evil' in KH because Riku used it for good, and obviously once he let it out to turn into 'Ansem', he didn't become corrupted again. He had mastered his connection of emotions and his own Heart to not be encouraged by Darkness to want to do more than he should in having to destroy things. However, I think here we are going to disagree, but I see what you mean when discussing this to Nobodies, I think. We'll see as we go on here.

The reason is they carried along their memories and 'memes'. Even if they could not remember, such as with Roxas and Namine, their memes were on an instinct level to draw from their lives formerly as Kairi and Sora (or Ven or whatever). Memes are behavioral patterns and learned habits. So, yes, they had their intellect but even without memories they still had these reactions based on memes in their former lives, which were trained by their initial 'emotional' responses to stimulus in that life; not as a Nobody. This is why I say I agree that it is instinctive but at the same time, more than you give them credit for and why I say they do have 'personalities'. They are individuals. You can definitely tell Axel from Demyx from Xigbar from Xemnas.

You are right. He could not 'feel' emotions, but with the memes of his former life, he knew he did at one time feel them incredibly strong and by his own words, they seemed to be consuming him so that he did not remember any of the more 'positive' emotions that Sora rambled off. I agree to get their Hearts back, of course, is an instinctive motivation for the Nobodies. The reason is because they can feel and know that they are incomplete and wouldn't it be weird to know that ordinarily you would 'feel' a certain way but there's nothing? Saix sums it up with one line out of a few. "If I had a Heart, this is where I would die of laughter." Axel's reaction to Sora saying he made him feel like he had a heart is another example. They remember and know what is missing and it is a void in them so of course they want to feel it. However, we fight 'habits' we obtain all the time. Someone said they were not operating off instincts, and I disagree with that. This does not make them 'neutral' to me. They did not 'feel' Darkness but had memories of it, and they also used this to make 'others' suffer and were killing off them. So that is why I say whether emotionally or not, their drive in itself was making others have no choice to react and because they 'do' have Hearts, these people are going to not be 'happy' about it. They also have instincts for survival, so coupled with hearts, their reactions to the actions of Nobodies causing these in the first place means the Nobodies in the greater scheme cannot be 'neutral'.

The reason why people are corrupted by Darkness is because they have a Heart and it can be prone to 'darker', negative feelings as well as positive 'benevolent' etc feelings. It can be a giver and a taker. The Heart is complex and DiZ/Ansem with all his brains fell victim to it as well, letting the darker emotions take over, and he had to admit he didn't get all the aspects of a heart. However, it doesn't make him 'evil'. The very reason I say KH doesn't declare the 'darker' emotions or the nature of Darkness in that universe's existence is destructive rather than 'evil' is because most of the people in the game that had common sense declared it as such. Only the people with limited minds and seeking power, or those who were paranoid saw Darkness and dark emotions as being 'evil' and Light being 'good'. Yen Sid's analysis of the Nobodies made them beyond a 'good and evil' scenario. It was a matter of saying they shouldn't exist in the first place, which placed them as an 'ultimate evil'. However, Riku all through this story questions (whether mostly hidden or not) that 'truth' because DiZ was also saying it. It was a nobophobe movement on 'their' part. Sora also as time went on opened himself up to things, but he really could not find it capable to do so for some time because he had to be in the way of the Organization's plans. They were doing 'acts' of destruction and I propose to you that people looking at the actions might say they are 'evil' based on that, rather than the state of their being. Riku questioned this a lot and looked for the 'reasons' and spoke to Namine and Axel more. He also grabbed Kairi before Axel could because he had talked to him in TT and knew what he would do. He could have gone and beat the tar out of Axel but instead just took her because he must have saw something in Axel to merit not doing this. The reason is in my mind, because Axel was trying to do this deed to get his friend back. It was a 'wrong' act, but not one that was 'evil' to -Riku-. So the point I raise is that whether 'some' people called the Nobodies evil or not, it was their own perception, not the game's perception, and we are led as players of the game to make our own choice too. We could easily say Ansem the Wise with all of his hatred and writing the Nobodies off as plagues was as 'villainous' too, but the reason you would be doing so would be because he has a 'Heart' to feel that way. At one point he even told Riku to get rid of Namine. Obviously the 'good guys' weren't agreeing here as Riku did no such thing and later abandoned DiZ to do what he felt was right.

I agree with you that no one is 'pure good' or 'pure evil' in even the game's terms, except for possibly Xehanort's Heartless who extracted all good emotions and went with only the darker ones, and Darkness itself. The power of Darkness and he became pretty much one, which made him not really 'emotional', but feeling that zeal of raw destruction. The reason Riku hides the Darkness is because it was the black spot on his soul in a way that was his own, but more so, Xehanort's Heartless's. However, because Riku had more control over his own emotions after all of his trials at CoM, he knew how to use Darkness outside and around him that he's connected to without letting it do more damage to his Heart. So yes, it's the difference between Darkness of the Dark realm and of existence around versus what is inside a person. That's why again, I say Darkness is not an 'evil' thing. It is just easy to be consumed by it because people go 'ooh power!' and it's like an addiction for that rush of feelings etc. Even in game terms, I am not seeing where the nature of Light or Darkness are declared by Nomura as 'good and evil'. I think it's perception of some characters.

I understand why you feel that way. I disagree but eh, I think I've expressed above why I do. Yes, though, Riku essentially having the Darkness purged from his Heart and not belonging to the Dark Realm anymore meant symbolically that he had been redeemed. However, it doesn't mean Riku isn't going to have hurt feelings, negative reactions etc. It simply means now that he is not plagued by using Darkness which was corrupting him all through KH after Maleficent and Xehanort's Heartless messed with him. He can now feel things freely without the weight of the Universal element trying to askew it and drive him to being more destructive and taking action on emotions. Riku probably now after all he went through, could have the most control of his emotions than anyone in the game. He had great intentions but fell hard and rose out of it.

Darkness emotions are not evil. Who does not feel rage, hatred, etc. The 'evil' part seemed more the issue of not being able to change the emotions and instead doing -acts- on them or letting them consume the person. Everyone becomes full of rage, fury, hatred etc, but most people can get rid of those with minimal or no harm involved. Just because someone cannot feel what they are doing is wrong does not mean they are still not responsible for those acts. The study on psychopaths and how we deal with them in life shows that they really don't often feel what they are doing is wrong. So the way they try to reach through to them instead is by showing the people that it is not 'productive' to them to do acts where they make others suffer, and they could bring horrible repercussions on themselves if they don't change their behavior. The same can be said of the Nobodies. They had rational minds, whether they had hearts or not. They simply found no reasons to see what they were doing was wrong. It doesn't however make them innocent of the acts they did. Obviously Axel saw that when he 'apologized' to Sora about Kairi etc. The fact of that apology in itself states that with a Heart, Axel would have felt bad. Sora made him feel like he had a heart, so of course, it encouraged him to have a pseudo-conscience. It's an example again of memes in play and memory of a Heart.

As I said, the Nobodies, though emotionless, were not 'always' emotionless, so they had things of their natures that carried over. Even if they could not feel the emotions, they knew they -would- were they whole. It prompted them to do things. Perhaps it made them feel connected to who they once were. They were instinctive but also, do not discount the memes of habits they carried over. Without these memes of their former lives and the memories, they would not have been driven to go after their Hearts at all. Demyx's reactions were set instinctively to "react" out of fear, whether he 'felt' it or not. It is something he would have felt if the situation were put in front of him and he had a Heart, so his reactions without a Heart were the same, minus the emotion. That is the instinct I speak of. He rose above that instinct to fight Sora, because when Sora called him on it, he had to agree, there was nothing other than a behavior trained act that made him do it. It wasn't emotion at all. All of the Nobodies had habits and things they used to do that they continued to try to do whether they needed to or not. It was what made them believe they still did exist. If they did not have these, they would have faded from existences. It was their wills to exist that kept them around. The Nobodies would have been easier to judge had they never 'had' former lives with Hearts. The line of 'good and evil' would be a cut and dry case, so I think Nomura really did this on purpose, even if I can't ask. It makes us think.

Well on that argument though, you are saying it takes a Heart to be evil in KH terms. Whether someone can 'feel' a conscience over making others suffer, die, etc is what you are basing evil and good on. I would still say the perception of others designates someone as evil or good, not that person. People can 'say' they are evil, and we can laugh at them because their perceptions are flawed. Once they start murdering or doing something else wretched against others, we will start believing them. If someone declares themselves neutral and unfeeling or even that they are good guys, if they are doing acts of destruction, others are going to believe they are probably evil. Others won't. This is why I say the game is not so simple in defining 'good and evil' as some think. Even in the game, though they had to be stopped, characters viewed the Nobodies in different ways. I don't think even the Nobodies viewed themselves all the same. Otherwise, they would have worked better together.

I agree they were neither Light or Dark. However, most people weigh good and evil as based on deeds and how it affects 'them', and not the person just doing the acts. Because you can say the 'methods' were wrong, that is the point I raise on why some would feel they are evil. The deeds made them not neutral. Their mental state has little to do with it even if some would call a 'heartless' person evil too. This is why people here can debate amongst ourselves as to whether they were mistreated or not. Some members clearly did less than others. I would say though that because the conflict became an 'us versus them' issue for survival, they easily are as you say, antagonists. Placing them as villains is a perception by others. I have no doubt they did not feel they were 'villains'. However, the vast majority of KH characters did. I would personally agree that they were 'antagonists', since you use the word 'villains' to exemplify 'evil people', as even in wars around us that we have to see an 'us versus them' scenario, I don't see the 'other side' as evil.

I think this is where we ultimately disagree. I do not equate evil and good with Darkness and Light as the message of KH. I don't think that was Nomura's thoughts but then again, you and I are not going to know that unless we somehow get to ask him. It's the acts to me that put people against others and were seen more as evil and good. I believe the 'acts' of using Darkness to take advantage of others or off them for personal gain is what the game coins as evil. We have yet to see someone of 'Light' be 'evil', though they were sometimes very short-sighted, bordering on prejudice. However, that to me in itself could be the 'evil' of Light. It makes people in the game assume something doesn't have a right to exist, or because it is 'Dark' it is evil. Clearly in the game, if Yen Sid and DiZ are to be considered 'right', then whether the Nobodies were using Hearts or not didn't matter to define them as evil. They simply were not meant to be and were ghosts clinging onto the will to live and should have let go, by what they thought. To them, this was probably 'evil'. Even Maleficent's -evil- tendencies were overshadowed entirely by the Org's mentality and power of will.

It is almost an irony that the Heart is such a powerful thing in KH and yet the Nobodies were really neither Dark nor Light as you said. Their power came from will to exist and that drive to do so. It became more powerful than Darkness or Light and actually threatened them. So the will to 'have' a Heart was even more powerful in a way than having a Heart and using it for 'good or evil'. It wasn't more powerful than Light or Darkness but it seemed to be more powerful than many of the people who had Hearts and tried to write the Nobodies off as nothings. No one really denies that the villains of KH were evil probably. However, the Nobodies may always be an issue that is not so easily resolvable, because as you said, they were driven to live by instinct and not by evil or good really. They were in a stagnation situation and were going to either exist or not. So, to me, it was Nomura's way perhaps to get people to think about the concepts of 'good and evil' versus a scenario of 'us versus them'. He tossed some 'villains' in that we could look at and see they weren't motivated by a Heart but more by the loss of a Heart and wanting it back. So, as I said, evil and good in the way of the Nobodies really is a perception.

This has been a good debate and I appreciate the fact we've managed to talk it out as we have. I await your reply.

 

First of all, allow me to apologize for misunderstanding your intents at the beginning of this post. Your point was very different from what I thought you was getting that, and for that I'm most deeply sorry. Now, continuing on...

I understand where you're getting with the Nobodies' "memes", and I must say I never thought of it that way, and that very could be the likely reason for their personalities; however I still believe that the Nobodies' need for a heart derived from their instinct, as even the un-human Nobodies seem to instinctively go for the same goal.

Now, for the 'good and evil' part. As you said, evil is perception in the minds of the characters in KH. Though the basic definition of evil is probably perspective, allow me to delve into a few deeper aspects of the term. From society's general perspective, every 'evil trait' is usually traced back to (or caused by) the emotion known as hatred, meaning essentially that evil itself is usually simply hatred; from society's view of course. If you think about it, you may be surprised to find that that statement actually holds true to a certain extent. Hatred really causes everything and anything society considers as 'evil', with the exception of maybe theft, although that's a subject of debate and isn't always considered evil even from society's general views. But, moving on. Although Sora himself may even seem evil for being angry and destroying Heartless and Nobodies and whatnot, he really didn't have true hatred against anyon- from the cosmology of the KH universe. We all know of the hatred Xehanort's Heartless and even Riku had, but by that logic, I would have to consider Riku evil as well, and he obviously isn't from the game's storyline. So, you're right that Darkness can also be used for 'good' as Riku explained, but from his conversations with Mickey in Re:CoM and KHII, it can actually be argued that Riku had the majority of Light within his heart, even though he was still a 'Dark user' physically. I personally think that it may just simply be his own innate abilities, or perhaps his mastery of it from when he first started using it in KHI. Now, I'm not saying that when someone has hatred it means that they're automatically evil, it would mean that they simply have an amount of evil within them, if only the slightest, such as Ansem the Wise. But by that logic, everyone would have a certain amount of good and evil within them, which seems to correspond with Light and Darkness. And as an added note, I think that the KH games seem to view evil the same way any other game and typical society views as evil, and because of that, it isn't merely a matter of perspective. But if we hold that to be true, evil and good in the KH universe are based on the mentality of someone, not their deeds. But this really isn't such a distortion from society, as society views evil as hatred, which is solely mentality, not the deeds. I think that the message KH is trying to get across is that we should look at the way person feels or their mentality on the matter instead of what they actually do. Basically, what I'm saying is, there are three main reasons why I think Darkness and Light should correspond to good and evil:

1.) One of the definitions of 'darkness' is evil, so you shouldn't be too surprised at the obvious comparison between the two; as they're synonyms of one another in real-life, and...
2.) Because society's views on evil all trace back to hatred, which is a trait of Darkness in the KH cosmology. And finally...
3.) The statement Mickey made about both Dark and Light existing within a person corresponds directly to the duality theory of good and evil in real-life, and this duality theory in turn is under the assumption that hatred is evil, and good is just the opposite of that, such as kindness or love.

This is why I think the two correspond, and it isn't so wrong for anyone to think that they actually do; such as myself. I'm not asking you to agree with me, just to understand where I'm coming from in this situation. But then again, there are many opinions on what evil really is; and because of that we don't call it 'perspective' for no reason. :P

And so, Light and Darkness in the KH universe seems to be derived from the emotions and mentality of a person, not of one's deeds. Although Sora probably and more than likely viewed the Nobodies as 'evil' (or he may not have, considering that he knows of the Nobodies' alignment of 'nothingness'), Sora isn't the brightest guy in the world, and in the KH universe Nobodies still wouldn't be evil IF we assume that evil is Darkness (this assumption is currently being debated) and that true alignment is one's mentality, not actions (and this assumption is probably quite likely to be true). Basically, I'm not saying that Darkness is evil, but more of a vice-versa; that evil is Darkness. Riku and Ansem the Wise had it, but they weren't consumed by it because they also had an upstanding amount of Light within them as well.

Now, just so you know, this post isn't aiming to contradict your post, it's simply aiming for you to at least understand where I'm coming from. Because of the way society typically views evil, you and I were probably raised the same way to know evil as such (I know I was), and all of that 'evil stuff' really traces back to the emotion known as hatred. And because hatred is quite obviously a trait of Darkness, it isn't so wrong to assume that both of such are the same. I'm not going about this from any character's point-of-view, but simply from the perspective of the game itself. I don't think Nomura intended to complicate things, I think he intended to show us that we should know a person's mentality and what they feel, rather than judging them by what they do.

By the way, I agree with you that this is a good debate. I don't think I've ever had a Kingdom Hearts debate quite like this one.

 

Hmm, my post appears to have not taken when I wrote it a couple days ago. This seems to happen now and then and I start to wonder if they aren't deleted or somehow it just did not take.

Anyway, apology accepted. I think we agree on much except for the stance of really if Darkness equates to evil and if Light equates to good.

I do see what you were saying about hatred being a component to Darkness and I agree there but I don't think it's the only thing. Another component to darkness and what I often feel can also be the true opposite word of love is 'apathy', or simply not caring at all. This is why I say the Nobodies fit into the scheme of it too. To not care and cause misery can be just as bad as caring and hating so you can cause misery. I tend to still see Darkness more as a 'Destructive' component as an element rather than just an 'evil' one. Of course, when people use it for evil, bad purposes, and the lure is stronger to with a person who has a Heart, often there will be rage in that person. I do think though that just because the Nobodies were not supposed to exist, it doesn't mean they did not cause Darkness in others and motivate things to their way, so I can't find though they are 'neutral' element beings, that their rational thoughts and deeds made them not neutral.

It's like to me saying that because someone wields the element of fire and the person is cold-hearted and methodical, though this fire should be passionate and moving, the person is still of a fire element so that's how they should be considered. 'What' a person is does not make the person neutral. If you take a stand against an opposing thing, you are clearly against something so the state of being is not the same as the predicament that being has chosen for itself.

I do think otherwise though, we pretty well agree and I do see more where you are coming from. Thank you for explaining it and bearing with me.

 

wow your post were long thanks guys that was lot of info i had forgotten lol

 

Speak to the Choir! It was the method about which they did things that was wrong, not them.

 

Hmm interesting I didn't really know most of them