Kingdom Hearts II What did Organization XIII do wrong?

Marluxia believed Xemnas was in it for himself and was using others (Xehanort's heartless was the same if you ask me). That or Marluxia just wanted to have the power for himself (still representing a Coup D'etat in the org anyways).

Xemnas LIED A LOT he didn't care about others as they were his puppets. If he did care he would've revived the loyal members with Kingdom Hewarts and restore all of them which I'm 100% positively sure was possible.

Oh and twilight night I just read your comment and you didn't read mine....

I said they were a motley bunch (they resort to violence nearly all the time) and I'd also like to point out that when you fight armoured Xemnas he said words to make Sora and riku against each other (he said to Sora 'Sora. Can you trust Riku?' and to Riku he said 'Riku aren't you jealous of Sora's power?')

My point is their actions were evil in total (and you can blame it all on their leader but if you aske me they seemed fine with idnapping 15 year olds and killing a 15 year old boy even though they failed).

My main point is that in most fanfics they make everyhting fluffy while trying to make it canon (like al the mmebers hang about and just talk??? bah!!! they would be at each others throats if they weren't on missions all the time).

Did I say Xaldin threw a lance at Axel in a meeting because Axel didn't want to do a mission???

oh yeah after Marluxia was dead Zexion and Lexaeus decided to dispose of Riku as he was no longer needed. (Axel killed Zexion for o reason that's pretty cold as seeing he didn't need to)

would you be in shock that your other half is not with you and is one of your enemies (that'd shock me if it happened).

IMO they were persuaded into the group not knowing everything that would happen or what they had to do but some seemed completely loyal to me (Saix wanted to stop his facade of a calm face and ifnally get violent with Sora).

twilight night we don't have enough collaborational evidence to suggest what the organization are REALLY like (we do know that the five apprentcies that went with Xehanort do dislike the ones under the number VI)

 

The Organization could have been a whole better group with a purpose had it not been for the direction they took in manipulating others, attempting to seize domination over the life cycle pretty much, kidnapping, changing living people to Heartless which is pretty well murder in my book, manipulating Sora and others and well some of them were just crummy people that you'd never trust if you knew them in real life.

I liked the Organization but seriously, they were -not good- even if some were possibly, if not with the Org, able to be decent people on their own. They were dastardly and even backstabbing each other. How is this missed?

Let's face it here...
Larxene - really did not care about anything other than herself and she was a Sadist enjoying other people's pain. Though Namine never bothered to apologize to the Riku Replica, Larxene enjoyed tormenting that being repeatedly to include tossing him about like a rag doll and also she totally hit Namine to get Sora to do something. Larxene may have been different had she not been in the Org but she was never going to be a good little girl. Not by a long shot.

Marluxia - he was a bad apple to begin with and seemed pretty psychopathic as well as a coward. He hid behind a girl, used her powers to wreak havoc to the minds of Riku and Sora and was also out to destroy Sora once he figured out he was not able to be used. He also forced Axel to have to fight Sora because Axel was not going for the 'use the girl as cover' ploy..though Axel never even went to attack Marluxia. He just -said- he was going to. Really, Marluxia was scum and someone I would have beaten the snot out of irl for his arrogance and ability to just stomp over others to get power he wants.

Saix - was a manipulator and enjoyed tormenting people emotionally and watching them beg and plead. He fed Sora lies about Riku being gone to the Darkness and broke him when he begged for Kairi. Sure, Axel kidnapped her initially in order to bring Roxas back, but in the end, Saix knew that Kairi was a tool and distracting Sora with Axel's dealings was just a side thing. He had every intention of taking Kairi and Axel just made his work easier. He was in control and pretty much a pet to Xemnas who in the end just pined for his own Heart while massacring other people's.

Xaldin - was trying to turn Beast into a Heartless. He was arrogant, dominating and totally feeling all right with all he did wrong. One track minded. Again, turning someone into a Heartless is pretty well murder. The only one who has come back from that really is Sora by the power of his bond with Kairi and she used her innate abilities to do so.

Vexen - was cold, manipulative...and yeah, he was a whiner and wanted his authority recognized. He was a mad scientist and who knows what else he made besides the Riku Replica who was so tormented. He planned to betray Xemnas who if he was 'so great' and they all believed they'd get their hearts back...why? Vexen was also one of the former staff of Ansem and obviously had not changed.

Now, Demyx and Axel are the two solid candidates really that if situations were otherwise, they may have been fine and tried to 'get their Hearts' through other methods and tried to exist alongside those who had Hearts. They had done things wrong but in the end Demyx really did little wrong and Axel's crimes were against two traitors of the Org and their cohorts, as well as his attempt to bring his best friend back. Their methods were off, but in a different scenario, the two may have been okay. Zexion is another who wanted nothing to do with Vexen's secret investigations either and perhaps he might have also been someone who may have been alright. Perhaps Lexaeus would too, even though he did try to force Riku's Darkness out of him to take him over in order to make him a tool.

So Xemnas...was a fanatical zealot who wanted to get revenge, exist on the rage of the Heart and there is enough evidence (considering ALL of the other Org members were slain by Sora) that he really did not intend to share the power. If he did, he was going to be the Superior and definitely have more for himself. Also, at the expense of getting his power, all of the Hearts gathered would be taken in by him and they would never go back to the life cycle. All of those people were 'murdered' to make him exist. Thousands or maybe even millions of people became Heartless for Xemnas's goals. Yes, he wanted to be whole, and perhaps wanted the other Nobodies to have that too, but it was either he win and all life be extinguished or people stand up to stop him.

As much as people love the Organization, seriously...why do people keep trying to say they were good? There is plenty of support to say that they were a very big destructive force to everything had their goals been accomplished and so whether you believe good and bad are nonexistent or terms of society...in the end, it was either everyone else lived or Xemnas and his cronies. Sympathy for the enemy isn't a bad thing, but seriously, if it comes down to you or someone else who's breaking into your house living and they want your life, who are you going to choose?

 

Woah, woah. You two need to realize that no one said that the Nobodies were good, because they aren't. They aren't evil, either. If you truly went by Kingdom Hearts cosmology, you would know what "side" the Nobodies are on, which is no side; Nothingness.

 

Eh, they weren't on 'no side'. They had their 'own' side. That's ridiculous to say. They aren't Dao monks in the middle of nowhere ignoring all humanity etc and staying out of things. They were murdering people and corrupting things and on a power binge. Xemnas 'definitely' had an agenda in the 'real world' so even though they were supposedly 'non existent' they were far from being on 'no side'. They weren't totally 'evil' but they were not good either. They certainly though were not neutral. If you take hostile actions, you aren't neutral. If you threaten the existence of a world or worlds for your own good, or a town, etc, you are not neutral. That is simply impossible.

 

First off all, quoting what you said: Those poor saps.

Okay *cracks knuckles*. The Organization didn't really do anything wrong. They (I agree with you) only wanted their hearts back, and Sora (apparantly the only-cares-for-himself-"serial killer") didn't want them to take Kingdom Hearts (or at least the[I/] hearts from there) in order to do so. I kinda think it was sorta like Sora though that they were stealing the hearts, or he was just mad they were using him for a stupid reason.

But, like Namine stated, Organization XIII is neither bad, nor good. No one will know, no one will ever find out. Same as finding out wether or not they are innocent or guilty of commiting a certain "crime." Sora just knows he's the good guy is what I suppose, but at the same time he has a reason because they were using the Beast to get his heart, turn it into a Heartless, then into a Nobody. So, this truly can't be explained in the proper way for me.

By the way, Repliku, nice way of putting the Organization Members out throughly. I totally agree with you. Although, consider they were neither good nor bad is what is truthfully stated in the game that was put there by Noruma.

 

its simple


the org didnt gang up on sora...plain and simple

 

... Wow.

You should have read the previous posts before making such a false statement. For the thousandth time, even though they did things that would be considered dark and evil from Sora's perspective, they themselves weren't evil at all. In a Nobody's situation, the ends justify the means. Doing things that are considered evil do not necessarily make the person themselves evil, and it's the same with Nobodies. Even though their methods may be considered evil, their goals are neither evil nor good; the goals are all merely a natural instinct to become whole again; and that fits perfectly with a Nobody's alignment of Nothingness. If you actually pay attention to what the game and the guides themselves say, you would know that they aren't good nor evil; they lack the emotions to even possess or feel light emotions or dark emotions. Hell, even Nomura himself has stated that. Granted, they aren't neutral either, if you mean neutral by 'in between'. They're not good, evil, or even in between the two. They're nothing, and they don't exist. Furthermore, they don't even have any other choice in the matter but to gain a heart for themselves, and do whatever is necessary for it. They were all born with that extinct, and the only exceptions to that would be Nobodies with hearts, such as Roxas.

Allow me to explain things:

Good (Light) ----- Nothingness ----- Evil (Darkness)

As stated by Nomura and the game itself, there are three alignments: Light, Dark, and Nothingness. And as Nomura has also stated, the Nobodies are clearly in the "Nothingness" area. And if you even begin to confuse that with evil, you're clearly a lost cause and you're very illogical.

 

Hmm... I don't think Sora needed to kill them, they weren't even bothering him (in KH2) they where just getting hearts the only way they knew how. I think maybe some of their minds could have been changed and they could find a new way to get their hearts back.

In truth I think Sora kinda did need to do something about them. I know all they wanted was a heart, but the way they where going about getting ones was not the best, although to kill them all without a care makes it almost seem as if Sora was the real one with no heart. :/ Like what he said after he killed Demyx, I didn't know he was so cruel.

 

Basically, I don't know what harm they were causing. They got the hearts liberated from the Hearttless by killing them, and then they got sucked into Xemnas' Kingdom Hearts. Was it that, which was causing disruption in the worlds? The magnitude of that heart-shaped moon.

The only reason they were trying to get rid of Sora, is because he was forcing to get in the way, all because of what Yensid had said. For the most part of the game, they were simply using Sora to speed things up, before it all went downward, due to Axel again (him telling Sora bout their plans, hence, him stopping his Heartless killing...kind of, or tried). But really, he was cruel.

They were just honestly trying to get their hearts, socipathic and which ever way possible, but that was their goal. They're not evil, or good, just the shade of gray. But at least Sora shouldn't have been that hard. I wish he tried to understand their side of things, and he didn't until he spoke to Xemnas, and saw Saïx fade away, where we saw some kind of pity.

 

They commanded an attack on Hollow Bastion
They even used heartless
Kidnapped Kairi
Tried to make Jack sparrow a skeleton forever
And several more

 

If he did care he would've revived the loyal members with Kingdom Hearts and restore all of them which I'm 100% positively sure was possible-
califa630

They Faded away into nothing! There's no way he could of brougt them back, and with the last few (Sai, Luxord, Xigbar) he had no chance at all with crazy ol' Sora fighting his way up through the Castle. Xemnas was prob'ley a little scared. (I said earlier I belive that fear is a survival instinct that comes with the body, not a emotion)

I'm getting good @ annoying Sora Fangirls. LOL
There gonna kill you soon.
I don't care Jinnex m'kay *PutsUpFanGirlSheild&CowersBehindSaix*

 

Un no. Just no. I never said they were evil. You are putting words in my mouth. You tried to say they are not on -any- side and the point of logic here is they have to be on THEIR side. They were on a mission to be whole and restore themselves. That is taking a side. The war is THEIR side versus the LIVING people's side. It wasn't about good or evil. It's about sides. Either one was going to exist or the other because that's how Xemnas was making it. You can't be true neutral and do anything. It doesn't work like that. The Nobodies were said to 'not exist'. There is nothing saying they were not doing something to their own agenda to make it different. If so, show me where, because if it was that way, there wouldn't have been a problem with the Org in the first place. That's the whole point of the story. They WERE doing things to others and causing great mayhem. If they were doing things that were not compromising all other life, they wouldn't have been seen as 'evil' by anyone.

Darkness isn't 'evil' any way. It's the destructive nature of emotions and things in existence.
Oblivion = Nothingness. That is the state the Nobodies were in which put them in a sort of Twilight state, similar to Riku, though of course, they were also disembodied and stuck as they were.
Twilight - The more neutral path accepting the other aspects of Light and Dark. This is where Riku was truly at, and explains why he probably had more sympathy to the Nobodies than Sora or others.
Light - the more positive creative aspects of nature and life. Protection of life etc.

As King Mickey had said and others, both Light and Darkness are in people and all things. It's not a matter of being evil or good. The 'PEOPLE' who use them are what is determined to be a good positive thing or a negative evil thing by those who stand with or against them. The Nobodies were so not just driven off 'instinct' as you are saying. Xemnas had vengeance on his mind and was plotting things even for after he would gain this power. He had a vendetta and ideals. There was no plan to just merely do something by instinct. Also, all of the other Nobodies clearly had personalities and why would Marluxia and Vexen want to betray Xemnas if they were all mutual on getting their Hearts back and that was it? No, they had real competition even amongst themselves. Larxene was a sadist, Lexaeus was a silent warrior, Axel was a wild card that did things as he saw he should, Zexion was quiet and aloof, a scholar, etc. They -had- personalities and wanted to be 'real and whole' but there was much more to it than just mere instinct. They were people despite not being whole.

I am not tagging the Org as "good or evil". They were doing what they were for themselves and the greater purpose Xemnas had. They were not neutral and not on 'any' side. Does that make more sense? You are confusing what I am saying here. I was not stating about their 'state of being'. I was speaking of their actions and deeds, which were full of action, decision, and carrying out things in the worlds of whole people.

 

Hmm..this topic is a difficult question to like awnser, I think.

 

No it isn't, it's following the instinct that all Nobodies are essentially born with (only exceptions are Nobodies with hearts, as I stated in my previous post). As soon as a Nobody is born, it strives to become whole again. That's the way it works. They weren't taking any side. Even with Marluxia betraying Xemnas, he still aimed at his instinct of getting a heart for himself, and that still isn't taking any side, in terms of good and evil.

So, you would define evil as doing "evil things", but the destructive emotions that cause them aren't evil? That's just bad logic. Regardless of how wrong you are, Darkness is evil in Kingdom Hearts cosmology. Actually, Dark is evil in any literal sense; if you don't believe me, look it up. The Light within every person is the only thing that can prevent a person from being purely evil. Xehanort became a Heartless and was thus devoid of all Light, making him purely evil.

That's not where I'm getting at. Being evil or good is the majority of which ever a person has within them. I wasn't talking about pure good or pure evil, the only "pure" being we've ever seen was Xehanort's Heartless.

I don't ever recall Xemnas having any vengeance on his mind. He had no emotions, period. He even stated that himself. Stop arguing with the facts.

Furthermore, the entire reason Xemnas had his 'ideals' and used the Organization was his own method of getting help to acquire a heart for himself. That still applies to his instinct.

Again, Marluxia's betrayal was simply another method to gain a heart, he didn't prefer Xemnas' method. And no, Nobodies do not have personalities, as that would require emotions.

No, they were nonexistent beings driven by the instinct to become whole again, that's it. Their "personalities" are actually a combination of their own intellect and methods. The only thing Nobodies are are essentially brains and brawn. Go by the games, and that's a fact.

Which is basically the only instinct Nobodies have.

 

There's another thing to that though: A lot of times I've seen games where Darkness is used for good intentions. This means Darkness can also be GOOD in a way.

 

If you want to be technical,
Instincts consist of three conditions:
1) Being a complex behavior
2) Being universal throughout a species
3) Being unlearned

Humans are born with no instincts, mainly because of reason #2. Having been made from a species with no instincts, they can neither have instincts themselves. Some nobodies wanted to overthrow their superiors, others wanted to be whole, others wanted to help sora, etc. They have no true instincts so they cannot be categorized by instinct.

So, short story long, I agree with Repliku in that they take they were "taking a side" because any argument that nobodies have instinct is false, seeing that they come from beings who's complex human behavior exhibits no natural instinct.

 

Wrong.

Instinct- a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency.

That's all instinct is. Everyone has instinct to a certain extent, even human beings. My argument was that instinct is the only thing that drives a Nobody to do what it does. Unlike Heartless, however, who rely only on instinct, Nobodies combine instinct with their own logical methods; since they actually have minds and can think. Thus, that explains the reason for their so-called "personalities".

 

No they dont. Read a book.
Just because dictionary.com has a definition doesnt mean its a human characteristic. Its a noun to describe prowess, an overstatement.

Babys are born, someone touches its face. 100% of the time it will face towards the touch. Why? Reflex, commonly misunderstood as instinct from people like...well...you.

Humans have drives. Sex drives, hunger drives, again, other characteristics that are interpreted as instincts.

Sociology course coming up to prove a point, if you care about the point continue to the bottom:
Geese are born and when they mature they do a mating ritual that i looks practiced which involves intertwining necks and dancing. How do they know how to do this? They only do this once, and thats due to instinct. Its unlearned, and all geese do it.

Humans have no universal behavior. Mothers instinct? Why is it that some mothers are loving and others are not. Sex instinct? Some humans are abstinent. Hunger instinct? Anorexia.


In conclusion, humans are proven to have no instinct, and in turn, nobodies have no instinct.

 

Don't patronize me. Ever heard of "human instinct"? While not the same as pure instinct, it's still instinct regardless. And why shouldn't humans have instinct? Arguing that humans have no instinct is arguing with biology itself. All mammals have it.

Even by assuming that instinct isn't reflex and that humans do not have instinct, Nobodies actually are born with the instinct to become whole again. Take the distorted, un-human Nobodies for example, like Dusks. It's a matter of fact that they automatically strive to become whole again, and is that learned? No, it isn't. It's instinct.

 

The Nobodies were not going off of just instinct of seeking a Heart. They had personalities, things they did that made them unique, personas. If they did not, then they really -were- nothings and so why should anyone feel guilty of killing something without a -soul-? They'd be zombies. They did have souls and memories which gave them more than just being automaton base animals programmed to seek out hearts. Heartless do that function.

Xemnas's reactions to what he wanted a Heart back for...anger, rage, etc all negative emotions. He talked to Aqua's armor, Roxas is obviously important to the plan. He was seeking revenge and those emotions were what was in his Heart before he became a Nobody. He did not recall or want to recall the others. This would lead a person to believe he has ulterior motives. We'll have to see in BBS if some theories hold true or not. However, even by his reactions in KH2, he was not doing this to just get his Heart back. He wanted super power and his memories of his heart only held for him the darker emotions.

I define 'evil' as something culture deems as ultimately against the ideal of their survival or it's a religious view against some deity. I really don't use the word much. You seem glued to it at the hip. Destruction also is not evil; just people tend to think of it as such because it tends to be most harmful if directed at them. Makes sense, huh? Therefore, some people are going to think the Org is evil.

Destruction can be used to stop horrible things from happening, as someone else mentioned. Destruction, death etc is part of life too and evolving, changing. Darkness is not evil but can be used quite easily for it and people become corrupted by the power of it. And where do you get that Nobodies don't USE Darkness. They make -dark portals-. They call their weapons from Darkness. When they dissipate it is Darkness that they dissipate into. Nobodies have no Hearts so they are using Darkness because they are composed of it so they get no negatives by it. Heartless aren't evil technically. They are composed of Darkness and just doing a mindless instinct function to seek out Hearts. That's it. Xehanort's Heartless was the exception. If Darkness was so evil, why was Sora still -thinking- and not doing evil acts? He wanted to get back to his friends as a Shadow and had no malice.

Nothingness was Xemnas's power alone. None of the others used that or had it. Their state of being is another matter. Xehanort (KH1 Ansem) made himself evil and used Darkness for evil, since you like the term evil so much. Xemnas himself even declares if he had a heart all he would want is the rage, anger etc. Therefore, if he got his heart back...wouldn't he too have been evil by your own definition, should such have happened? In that case, Xemnas would be 'evil waiting to happen and he was evil prior to becoming a Nobody, so his reactions of -instinct- are as a Nobody...then evil. That's the logic you are telling me here.

You keep using the term evil and good to describe Darkness and Light and what the Nobodies aren't etc. Proofs from the game Darkness itself is not all 'evil'.

1. Mickey did say as did others in the KH storyline that Darkness and Light are essential to balance.
2. Riku said it's not the Darkness that is bad but the people who need to be dealt with who use it badly.
3. Riku and Sora resigned to the fact they may be stuck in Darkness but they didn't turn evil...no, instead they said they would guard and defend against others -using it for evil-.

I'm sure I can find more examples. It has more of a function than merely to be 'evil', as you say. It is negative or destructive things. Someone who is naturally a destructive person is going to be drawn more to evil. They will have more 'darkness' in their hearts which is -negative emotions- and Darkness in the broader aspect is Destructive nature. Now, if someone does something rotten like plays a prank on someone that is pretty bad like pushes someone off a cliff and is grinning about it...they would have a destructive nature that as the more things they do and people suffer, the more they become obsessed with that power and feeling and exhilarated by it. Another feeling happens but is also powerful when someone does something very compassionate and is thanked for it sincerely and/or they can see the outcome is very positive for that person they helped.

THIS is where the Nobodies are -neutral- as you say. They cannot feel those things. I agree with you there. However, it is not their mentality alone we are analyzing here. It is their actions. Their actions, whether they can be influenced by dark/light/etc or not, is absolutely what makes them -not- neutral. Thoughts, feelings, are NOT what matters in crimes. It is the -deeds-. You can think all you want to about killing someone with your bare hands and oh well, no one can do anything about that: You go and do it, well...it's murder.

The Nobodies used the Heartless, they murdered droves of people in a mass genocide. They aren't being -corrupted- by Darkness but they were doing things people might just consider evil. Murder is usually a pretty nasty thing to do, especially in large numbers.

Marluxia was out for -power-. It was not just for a Heart. It was power, greed, selfishness and to also get rid of Xemnas who was a fanatical control freak. Some of it is instinct. Larxene and Saix liked to torment others physically and mentally because they enjoyed other people being in pain. Demyx reacted out of trained fear he probably had before becoming a Nobody, etc. These are all trained memes of their former existences and I cannot see how anyone could deny that each of them had their own personality, likes and dislikes, to include each other. Preferences and memes are not emotions. Their instinct goes deeper than you give them credit for. All of the Nobodies had their quirks, failures, positives, and even to defeat them they took it as a 'game'.

The Nobodies have minds, rational thought, memes and their memories of what they formerly had. They are instinctive and react to what is thrown at them from basis of their former memes they carried with them. They knew what they were doing would be considered wrong by former teachings.

The point of this topic though is where the Org went wrong. Did they deserve to exist? It depends on the person looking at the scenario. Most people, if they knew some people were suffering as they were would say "of course". However, it is their direct -actions- that make them the villains. They cannot be corrupted by Darkness. It does not mean they did not cause a lot of Darkness using the Heartless, mass murdering, manipulating things to their goals, and enjoying some sadistic pleasures along the way.

Are you going to tell me -you- would just stand by and let a group of people kidnap your best friend, murder people in your town, bully you and tease you to get you to kill people for them, and let them coerce a friend into this cult they have going on where they kill themselves for some ritual, etc? That is where the Org went wrong. Sympathy and assistance could have been theirs. However, it is their methods to get their wish that was wrong; not their desire for Hearts.