Kingdom Hearts II What did Organization XIII do wrong?

It might be that they are neither good nor evil. But it was the things that they were doing....

Thats how it is in my mind...

 

UK and KH1- Kidnapping Kairi- That was Axel after he went renegade, they just took advantage of the situation to keep Sora going with the Heartless.
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Yeah but Saix put her into the dungeon after she escaped Axel. You're saying that's good?
And also remember he asked Xemnas "I can end this charade." Meaning that they were waiting for Sora to destroy Heartless then kill him.

 

True, but they had no choice, really. If they didn't get Sora out of the way, he would have stopped them and killed them first, just as he actually did.

 

Still like I said in the other one. No matter how much you sympanthize with the Nobodies. They still had to be stopped. Sure killing was a little harsh but they had to do it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree. And I don't really sympathize with the Nobodies, I was just making a point that because they're Nobodies and lack hearts, they're neither evil nor good; just technically walking, intelligent corpses that disrupt and cause inbalance to the world because they have no alignment. I'm pretty certain that this is what Riku meant when he said, "You mess up our worlds". And that's exactly why they had to be stopped. And killing them isn't exactly harsh because they technically don't exist; it's not like they were actually afraid of death (yes, not even Demyx).

 

They were trying to take the beast's heart during that world, so if you think about it, they were trying to make him into a heartless, so that would hurt him, no?

 

Mehuh? Overthought? No way! This is slightly UNDERthought! You have a point there. Axel even gets jelous after the third(I think) fight with Roxas and says "Just because you HAVE a next life...", because we all know that Nobodies, since they have no hearts, don't go anywhere when they die, they just disappear. Am I on to something here?

 

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I'm still standing up 4 them:

Lunacy Divine- I think your being a little, well, odd with your choice of words. Saying they have no "free will" is implying they have no choice in what they do. Marluxia CHOSE 2 use Namine against Sora; Vexen, Lexaeus and Zexion CHOSE 2 use Riku 2 counter Marluxia and Larxene. Demyx also whines about saying that that they CHOSE the wrong guy and says he told them that. Again CHOSEING 2 say that he superiors where wrong. And there's somthing special about Organisation XIII Nobodies, something that seperates them from the others. Free Will, the abilty to plan, to lead. About them having no Light/Dark alignment, neither does Riku. And Demyx was afriad of fading, so was Zexion and Vexen. They may not have emotions but they still have states of mind eg fear, frustration, maybe even enjoyment.

UK and KH1- I think by "ending the charade" he meant he can go into his Beserk state instead of being calm. What where they doing that needed to be stopped, the Heartless need to be kept down so a repeat of KH1 can't happen and when they return to Kingdom Hearts it grows. When Kingdom Hearts becomes whole they can use it to be returned to they're full forms.

riniblack- I s'pose. But they don't whats right or wrong. They needed his Heartless for Kingdom Hearts and his Nobody to counter Sora.

Xendane- I forgot about that *hit self over head with keyboard* I'm a little dumb! LOL. Anywho, yea Axel did seem really disapointed. But I think he was refuring 2 Roxas becoming Sora again.

Wow, lots of pwetty writing.

 

The Organization wasn't -evil- necessarily but they were doing bad things to get what they wanted.

- They did trap Sora and Riku at the castle and attempted to use him to get around things if you think on it. Then when they found out they didn't need Sora and Riku, they set to destroy them. They could easily have just let the kids leave.

- They could not work with each other and were betraying each other from within the Org. Marluxia and Vexen clearly had their own agendas and were not looking out for the Org and obviously didn't believe in what it was doing, or just wanted to be in charge.

- Saix earns little sympathy because really, he was the worst one other than Xemnas to messing with the Keyblader in the first place and was tearing at Sora's heart and clearly manipulating him. Really, him pining after Kingdom Hearts was amusing to me and I can't say I had much feeling at all when he died after all of the rotten stuff he did throughout KH2. He also was really in the way of the only Org member who was actively having a chance of crossing over to help others, though Axel's agendas were also self motivated to begin with.

- Namine was held by the Organization as a prisoner, stuck at the Castle Oblivion and forced (albeit not that strongly so I consider her a wuss) to doing things for them, including messing with Sora and Riku's minds. She was a prisoner clearly so why no sympathy for her?

- The Org were encouraging the Heartless to continue attacks on people and killing them, making more Heartless for their plans. This may not seem a big deal but imagine it was someone close to you or your whole town that was wiped out so that the Nobodies could be whole? It makes more sense why it was bad and as Riku said, it messes with the worlds. They weren't just collecting Hearts of the Heartless slain..they were using the Heartless as well as Saix showed. Without the Dark Council anymore to do that job, they did it themselves. They were killers.

- Xemnas does have other reasons I believe that prompted him to want to go this route but at the same time, he was not honest with the Org either, which was leading others such as Vexen and Marluxia to do betrayal. Saix seemed to be his staunch supporter and even he was used as fodder to just hold up Sora.

- Kairi was kidnapped, not just by Axel but by Saix after that had intentions to use her against Sora to do things to further his goals.

- Roxas obviously was not pleased with his position in things and the Org were not nice people. He wanted out for a reason, and it wasn't just to pursue why he's a Keyblade wielder. Some of the Org, to include anyone below #6 were not even of the original group of people from Ansem's apprentices so they might have also recalled what Xehanort and others had done. I do ponder if any of the others below #6 were not unwilling experiments to the tests that Xehanort ran before deciding to cast his lot in with Darkness. All in all, being in the Org itself was cold and promoted decisions to betray from people like Larxene and Marluxia (not that I really have sympathy to Marluxia who seemed psychopathic).

- The Org were going about making tougher Heartless and recruiting stronger Hearts to fall to Darkness such as Beast. Xaldin didn't approach me as a nice guy and was pretty rotten.

There are some people of the Org who seemed not so bad, such as Demyx, who I debate might have given up his lot with the group with proper motivation and Sora did not even try when Demyx really didn't seem to want to confront him. Xigbar also didn't seem that bad to me and actually had information and if I were Sora, I would have been trying to get more information rather than just confronting them but eh, Sora tends to fight first and ask later. This is why I think Sora actually needs people like Riku, who seemed more cognitive the entire time and asking things.

The Organization itself, with its purpose and disregard for all life other than their own, did have to be stopped. I think some things could have been done a bit different for a select couple members but in the end, it was clear some were not at all receptive to things, such as Xaldin and Saix, Luxord and especially Xemnas. I do hear the point though that Sora could have asked more. He didn't really have the issues Riku did, who actually remembered Castle Oblivion and his battles where Lexaeus and Zexion tried to destroy him and make him turn to Darkness. Riku was the one who even though Axel and Namine feared him, he did nothing to them other than talk things out to get an understanding. However, I do believe the Organization, whether some were ok or not and in different circumstances were salvageable, did need to be stopped and confronted. They may not have been -evil- but some were just rotten people with no compassion at all for anyone else. It and Yen Sid's words were enough of a reason for Sora to need to do what he did. Let alone the fact that the worlds were in a bad state because of what the Org did.

 

Okay, I'm not saying they were all good. I don't like Xaldin or Xigbar. And Vexen creeps me out beyond belief. These are the ones who I think could of been turned good:
Xemnas- If he was given the oppertunity to get his Heart another way. Sora just goes in with a chip on his shoulder from what Yen Cid said.

Saix- I thunk anything Xemnas does Saix would follow, he's the orginal Xemnas stalker.

Demyx- He would of turned in a instant. He obvioulsy didn't support the others

Axel- He left anyway.

Luxord- I don't really know much about him, but he seems resonable and as a gambler he should of swapped as soon as Sora entered WTNW. So he's dumb. (Happy Luxord Month, sad aren't I)

Marluxia-I know, a little strange. But if you offered him power on the other side, and maybe a houseplant.

I don't really know much about Zexion and nothing 'bout Lexaeus.


Repliku- No sympathy for Namine- She didn't seem to of stood up for herself once. She a wet blanket, and so's Kairi. I don't mean to be mean I just think that all of girls in KH are wimps, 'cept Larxene. Don't hold the Oblivion lot against the rest of them. Marluxia and Larxene are maniultive and Vexen was very arrogant. Heartless don't kill, they extract the Heart from a person with Darkness. And most of the younger ones would be from those places. I hate Xaldin too. I won't even try to defend Xigbar and Xaldin. They were two of senior members but acted like children.

Also just to let you know I am a HUGE Saix and Xemnas Fan girl.
(Soz to all Marly Fans, I couldn't resist the potplant thing.)

 

I do disagree with you about Xemnas and Saix. They were too devoted to their cause and doing it their way. They were also tremendously arrogant and they certainly weren't going to listen to either Sora or Riku. Sora even gave Xemnas a chance to change before Xemnas decided to take off and do his thing with Kingdom Hearts. So Xemnas -did- have his chance really and there was no way he was going to alter. Also, Saix was incredibly responsible for causing pain and didn't care in the least. He wanted his aims met. For some people, the means justify the ends and they are not going to do things other than -their- way. Also, to them, they were doing the right thing and screw anyone else's opinions.

Marluxia was not someone redeemable either. He was psychopathic and selfish, and out for himself. He wanted to run the Org and do his own mad power scheme. I am not sure why people think he's anything more than just what he showed himself as. I saw more of a soul behind others that seemed to mention Sora as Roxas and question why he was betraying them than I do for this guy. I guess I am just weird in not seeing anything in him but he seemed pretty basically easy to read. Larxene was being used. I think she could have changed but I don't place any money on Marluxia.

However, I really, majorly do agree that the girls in KH (the canon more FF ones like Namine and Kairi) really are shown as wusses with wishy washy demeanors that get walked over. They did try to make Kairi stronger in KH2 but as Saix said when Namine and Kairi were going to fight "If I had a heart, this is where I would die laughing"...and I so agreed with him, because I was laughing until Riku showed up. I also had to laugh that Namine said "You can take it from here, Riku" as if before she and Kairi had it all under control. Yeah...right. It was all laughable. Also, we pretty much both see eye to eye on Demyx. I would debate on Xigbar but at the same time I see why there is doubt there. With him it'd be a toss up in my opinion. Xaldin also we agree on.

I also had problems with Namine too just accepting that she should torment more Riku and Riku Replica than Sora. It was okay to mess with the other two but when it came to Sora, finally she had to make her brave stand. Riku was messed with worse as was the Replica. Her only redeeming quality is that she tried to make amends in the end of her activities after Axel freed her and he knew what she'd do. Yes, she did help Riku later but the point is she wasn't really remorseful about having messed him up in the first place. It was only Sora she cared for and she tore poor Replica's heart out too. She's the one in the first place that lured Sora to the castle and Marluxia took advantage of it and forced her to do it his way. So I agree, I don't have too much sympathy for Namine, but she and Kairi did make turn arounds in KH2, even if their self-confidence was amusing at best at times. Thinking about that scene with Saix...still cracks me up.

 

They wanted to kill everybody :/

 

Wow. This conversation has built.

And why did they choose it? What's at the end of the road for them? In the end, in the long-run, their choices all add up to being their own methods to do the samn damn thing every other Nobody tries to do. They can choose how they want to achieve their goal; but because it's the same goal as every other Nobody, they don't have a free will, generally speaking.

Some of them? The only ones with compassion were really Axel (for being in Roxas/Sora/Namine's presence), Roxas, and Namine (for actually being Nobodies with emotions). And only some of the Organization had no compassion? With the exceptions I listed, try all of them. They have no emotions to be compassionate about anyone, unless they fake it, of course.

 

Well, come on! They wanted to be whole again, were being driven by the feeling of emptiness that drives all Nobodies, and were playing on the fact that Sora's a gullible idiot who destroys every heartless he sees. Isn't that reason enough to be killed one by one? </sarcasm>

 

Replies 3

*sings* Stacy's Mom has got into going on *sings* Soz, watching a KH AMV. *takes out earphones*
Lord Knight Xiron- Sora is a bit gulliable at times, I mean even in his Bio in the guide it says he's naive. I also think he listens to what people tell him first and won't change his mind. Yen Cid is accontable for a lot of deaths, he said he didn't really know what they where doing but Sora listened to what he said and follwed it WAY to closely. He's been frozen for a year, he's still gonna act like he did at the end of CoM.

Lunacy Divine- They chose to do it because it's survival instinct, do what you need to survive. Humans have instincts like that, but we still have free will. They could of just lived the rest of eternity as empty, hollow shells. But they decided that they wanted to LIVE, not just exist. You can't honestly say that you wouldn't do anything possible to be able to feel after having nothing for years. I would of thought even pain would be welcome to them. Instead of a empty feeling.
And I guess they can't be compassionate, but they can remember what it felt like to be in a situation. Saix said so himself. I think that some of them can remember what it felt like stronger than others. Like Demyx and Xemnas. Xemnas seems to be genuinly disapointed about Ansem/DiZ not praising him for his work on Kingdom Hearts, so maybe all emotion hasn't left them. They try to cling on to what they can. And Demyx is scared, He should still have instinct and fear is part of the fight/flight reaction.

christhor- They only ever tried to kill Sora and Riku and by that point they had both already killed other members.

Repliku- By the time Sora offers Xemnas a way out he's already started fading for the firts time and he'd be a little ticked off with them for killing him, even without emotions. Saix never even gets the oppertuinity, but if you look at the FM cutscene he's looking very nervous. As I said earlier, they still have intincts about fear. So I think, if Xemnas hadn't reassured them he would of run off. Not a proud moment for SaiSai.
With Marly I still reckon with the right amount of stuff offered he would of gone over. Not out of anything else. But he was a little to far gone when Sora reached him.
The girls ARE embassing. I'm a girl and I want to kill them just so they don't insult the female gender with their presence. Kairi does try to be stronger but still Saix was really justified in wanting to laugh at them. And Kairi's keyblade-thingy! I have questions about it 1) was Riku joking when he gave it her 2) why was Riku carrying a flowery keyblade about, it's getting into the Marluxia realms there. (no offence to any Kairi or Namine fans, but you have a admit it is embassing)
The Worlds where in a bad state because they where still recovering from coming back out of the Darkness. Maybe the Org. weren't helping matters but, you know, they wheren't really messing about. Sure Xigbar turned a dragon into a Heartless (to stop Sora). Xaldin, well, like I said earlier, he had his resons. And proberly just saw it as a job, remember he was a scientist and they have a very "the end justify's the means" outlook. Demyx in the Underworld looked very much like a recon. mission. Would you send him to do anything else? And Hollow Bastion woulda happened anyway. And the Nobodies didn't really make it worse.

I'm getting scared of how many replies I'm getting!
Anywho, I think that's every one replied to. *dies of finger cramp from typing to much*

 

Wow that's one of the longest posts I've seen

 

I know. It took me a hour to write. But I have 2 reply to all the comments. It's easier to do them in one big chunk.

:woohoo:​

 

Okay first of all you don't know what was happening during Hollow Bastion when you first got there after Tron's world. Second of all remember when you first get there, the Nobodies were chasing the Heartless and you never known that they were the ones sending Scar's Ghost or the Heartless from other worlds. And also about the whole flowery Keyblade thing... they didn't have time for her to get another Keyblade. Maybe in the third game(Sora series) they will make Kairi and Namin'e stronger and the Keyblade no longer girly.

 

Reply

Urg. My fingers hurt.

Keyblade- I'm not critizing it, it's just disturbing that Riku was carrying it around with him, does he have a portable arsenal or something?

Organization- I don't think they where being sent from other worlds cause in the first one HB was crawling with Heartless. They where just massing in Villians Vale. I think they where using Nobodies to keep the Heartless near Sora.

 

No you're not, you just overlooked it a little bit. I did the same thing, I should know!

Jeez, SERIOUSLY?!(I don't know WHY I can't hel pdouble posting, it's just there's a lot of things I didn't catch. And usually I wait until somebody ELSE posts.)