Kingdom Hearts II Was the Organization Evil?

Aura · Nov 8, 2008

I wouldn't say they were evil.I guess the fact that they were taking hearts,Sora thought they were evil.But they were Nobodies and they wanted to be whole.

Virtuoso · Nov 8, 2008

Repliku said: ↑

I would not call the Organization evil. Really, to me, evil is a word that is negotiable as to what it means and we can all have different views on it. Some people will say it is evil for a starving kid to steal a candy bar while others will sympathize and say it is wrong but there are circumstances that merit it. So really, I try to not use the word 'evil' to describe even some of the most heinous figures of our time.

Instead, I judge people more on 'actions' they do. i.e. The Organization had a purpose. Their intentions were to get their own Hearts back since they were stuck in a state between essentially life and non-existence. They were missing a whole aspect of themselves which made existing rather banal and meaningless. In essence they were beings frozen in time and they were the result of the Heartless being unleashed on worlds of living people, where they consumed Hearts and thus what remained would become Nobodies elsewhere.

I don't even think Xehanort and the top 6 members of the Organization knew exactly what would happen to them should they give in to Darkness. The only one known to retain any 'sentience' after changing to a Heartless seems to be Xehanort, if Axel's words can be taken as true. The others however, who all were strong enough of spirit, did manage to have intact Nobodies, along with him, and memories of their former lives. This change may have been rather difficult on them and we also must wonder exactly why these members took the plunge into Darkness in the first place with Xehanort. Also, why did they insist on studying and going past the point of no return when Ansem had ordered the experiments to be stopped. These are mysteries hopefully that we will get some answers to in BBS and 358/2 Days.

As for the other members below, they can be considered innocent of the initial 'crime' that placed the top members who were apprentices of Ansem the Wise as traitors and threats to all life as the Heartless were unleashed not just on one world, but through interspace as KH likes to call the space between worlds. It doesn't mean they did not perhaps do things wrong or right prior to joining the Organization and prior to becoming Nobodies.

To be a Nobody, whether from the Org direct or one of the lesser ones, is a state to well...think on how horrible it might be. Imagine being a husk, a body that is not your own but is a memory of your own former body, powers that you probably did not possess prior, but also a lack of emotional depth and feeling. It is somewhat akin to vampires, which is about the closest thing I could relate it to. They are changed and though responsible for their actions still, their judgments would also be altered from a normal person's.

Being a Nobody, they would be as rational or mind thinking as they could be. They also would not have emotions to really 'care' about what they do to others. They merely wanted their Hearts back to be complete and I'm sure there was some other agenda there, but as of yet we don't know it. It is not the fact that they wanted their Hearts, or some Hearts anyway because they might not find their 'old ones', back which makes them bad people. It's not really the fact that some exhibited very little conscience or sympathy towards others that would make them conceivably bad or evil as some would say, because the state of being is what it is. It's not actions. They are as they are.

What made the Organization destructive and harmful to others was their actual actions in order to get Hearts. They harmed worlds, controlled Heartless and manipulated them, they even made more Nobodies with Heartless as they sent them to worlds, adding to their own numbers because they believed in the end, they would win. They also, with this thought in mind, had been allowing Heartless to make more of themselves. They used other beings such as corrupting a dragon and a dark spirit within a chest, and other Heartless that were not so before as strong aids to get Sora to destroy them and thus send their Hearts to the faux Kingdom Hearts created in TWTNW. Not only did Hearts not make it to the -real- Kingdom Hearts, but they were going to be used by the Organization for their scheme which may or may not have worked, but destroyed a lot of lives. They attempted to corrupt Beast, used Sora throughout, and some initially caused the problem of the Nobodies' existence in the first place and yet the leader who motivated the Heartless was also the leader for the Organization.

To me, I would not call them 'evil', but I would say that their quest brought about actions that required them to be stopped because of how they were pushing to force others to change and they certainly put a great burden on life to get what they desired. They would of course feel little if any guilt over such a thing, save for Roxas and later on, Axel. Demyx also didn't ever seem to fit in the scheme of things and in the novels he was even ridiculed for being kind of a bumbler. Because they had no conscience over quite a few things, it's no question also that Marluxia would attempt to betray the Organization because he seemed to not mind his actual condition as it gave him more power. Someone had to try the power ploy and not go along with what Xemnas wanted because the younger members certainly did not spawn the situation in the first place and of course, the lure of being in a new powerful body to some and having no emotions in the way, it's ideal for a corrupt leader to come about.

So though I do not consider the Organization to be evil, I do consider their actions to be destructive enough to merit that others would have to step up and stop them. They did never make their intentions fully clear which if they had, the heroes might have been able to have more sympathy to them. Only Riku really seemed to know things and did sympathize with the plight of Namine and Axel, as he came to understand their personalities and identities were unique, as was Roxas's and he questioned his own actions then of whether it was right or wrong to force Roxas back with Sora, though he had to or Sora would never have awakened. In the end, it came down to a call for survival of Nobodies versus the original people who were there prior to the Nobodies and Heartless. Is it right for the Nobodies to continue existence and make more, and seek their Hearts or to let nature do its thing to compensate for their condition?

People around here say they just were after their Hearts and it is true. They also slam on Sora and his allies for being 'closed minded' and prejudiced to Nobodies, but if you study the game in earnest, you'd see that Sora did not gain information on the Nobodies that we would see in cutscenes. It just didn't happen, so without Nobodies actually being willing to communicate with him or any of the heroes for that matter, he was at a loss and could only go in one direction. Also, Nomura pointed out that if a Heart is freed from a Heartless, it would return to Kingdom Hearts. If under normal circumstances, nature had been able to work, and Sora had freed Hearts, when a Nobody would perish or choose to give up its existence, that Nobody would return to his full life, with a Heart again. If a Nobody died however and the Heart was not freed from a Heartless, that Nobody simply would cease to exist. Now, Nomura states this but I must wonder if the Nobodies of the Organization -knew- this, just as much as I know Sora and his friends knew little about the Organization. So, if they did not, their mission was a desperate one to survive. If they did, they were out to make themselves into something more.

In any event, I think it came down to a battle of survival of Nobodies and their personalities and the desire to become whole... VS... the people who were in danger from Heartless and those who were changed to Heartless that they would never become whole again, because the Nobodies wanted to preserve their own integrity. Namine herself did not really want to go back to Kairi until she was resigned that it was the right thing to do or she and Kairi might always be incomplete. What would have happened to Kairi if Namine had become whole by Xemnas's idea? Let alone what would have happened to others who were in danger and did not have Kairi or Sora's predicament is a good question. I blathered on here but I guess the point comes down to I consider this more an issue of survival that had no choice but to be fought because of how the Organization played its hands. It's a debate whether they thought they -had to- or not but safe to say probably at least some of them did feel that way strongly. I don't consider Sora to be wrong in what he did, but I do not feel the Org was entirely without purpose either in their plight. I went into detail with this because I know someone will tell me 'well you don't think they were wrong or evil so that means Sora isn't justified' suddenly so it had to be clear. ^_^
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I guess so, as Shakespeare said, "Nothing is good or evil, but thinking makes it so."

It is also true that they had to use those methods because there was really no other possible way for them, it was the only way for the desperation of survival.

So yeah, well said, Repliku. ^_^ (And very detailed @___@)

int2646 · May 5, 2009

Organization XIII Evil or Just Misunderstood?

I have been thinking what's so wrong about becoming whole anyway?
Plus, they wanted to get rid of the heartless, so why must we hunt them down?

Magick · May 5, 2009

Nothing is so wrong with the idea, its how they go about doing it. They tried to turn several main characters into heartless and nobodies, so Sora would release the captive hearts. That would make Sora very unhappy, to have to kill his friends, so that's out of options.

Heartless and Nobody seem to have to co-exist. Like light and dark. Its not that wanting to destroy the Heartless is bad, again, its just the purpose they are using them for.

Bond of Flame · May 5, 2009

They just wanted to be whole again. It is good that they are destroyed however.

Darkcloud · May 5, 2009

They willingly threw themselves into darkness, despite Ansem the Wise's orders, then they try to attack and hurt others, just so they can accomplish their own selfish goals. With the exception of Axel, they didn't help anyone, not once, in KH: CoM or II.

Always Dance · May 5, 2009

they could have handled the situation a lot better. They obviously had control over plenty of heartless, so if they had just threw them all over Sora without showing themselves, their mission would have been accomplished anyway. Wouldn't have helped the plot though.

But they are most certainly evil. Or at least Xemnas is. none of this "just wanting to be complete" crap, that guy wanted to create his own evil world and have control of the others. last time i checked, thats evil.

Rock-kun · May 5, 2009

This discussion again? Argh. I think I'll just try quoting someone with some actual points on it (feel free to disagree with your own points, I honestly don't care):

When people try to defend Organization XIII's actions, they more often then not neglect the fact that the Order purposely released countless heartless into the worlds, relying on them to multiply and seize the hearts of thousands of innocents, just so Sora can clear them out and earn them more hearts for their big master plan. Those who commit such acts of mass destruction and tens of thousands of people suffering fates worse then death are acts that are not going to be taken kindly.

That alone would help justify Sora's lack of mercy to the Organization. When you consider all the attacks committed towards him both physically and emotionally, such as the multiple attempts to either kill him or turn him into a heartless, and kidnapping Kairi for the sole purpose of igniting rage into Sora, makes it not just acts of justice in the eyes of Sora, but also puts things on a much more personal level.

All of those reasons for Sora to not consider pity towards his enemies, and I haven't even begun to mention the fact the whole "no hearts, no remorse" deal. When you get all factors combined, it makes clear and perfect sense for Sora to act like he did to the members of Organization XIII.
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JustRob · May 5, 2009

Most of them are evil, but guys like Demyx or Axel aren't all that bad.

Kenni-Chan · May 5, 2009

Misunderstood, though I think they've misunderstood things too. Not all of them are completely evil, like Demyx... I f*cking love Demyx... And Axel... SQUUUEEE!!! <333

Dark_dragon_heartless · May 5, 2009

Braveheart said: ↑

They willingly threw themselves into darkness, despite Ansem the Wise's orders, then they try to attack and hurt others, just so they can accomplish their own selfish goals. With the exception of Axel, they didn't help anyone, not once, in KH: CoM or II.
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Roxas isnt nasty he is cute and is nice to ppl

JustRob · May 5, 2009

Yeah he was very nice to Riku

♥♦♣♠Luxord♥♦♣♠ · May 5, 2009

well it depends on the person

ex: axel did not deserve to die!

Firefly · May 6, 2009

Good goal, evil methods. What they were trying to do was understandable and any other character would do the same, but like Magick said, the way they went about it wasn't right. Being without hearts they couldn't really help it, but they should of known better than to mess with other people just to help themself.

They weren't really evil, just selfish, because they chose to try and sacrifice the lives and happiness of others so they could have lives and emotions themselves.

water mage · May 6, 2009

Braveheart said: ↑

They willingly threw themselves into darkness, despite Ansem the Wise's orders, then they try to attack and hurt others, just so they can accomplish their own selfish goals. With the exception of Axel, they didn't help anyone, not once, in KH: CoM or II.
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I disagree with your statement. Some of them had no choice for it was either do that or get destroyed or turned into a dusk. How does that make them evil when they given the choice either do as I say or be destroyed yourself? It's all survial people. Anyone would do anything to survive.

Day~Dream · May 6, 2009

I don't really think that they were evil. They just wanted to be whole again, to be the people they were before they lost their hearts. I don't find anything wrong with that. But I think that in the process of wanting a heart it kinda turned into an obsession. My opinion is that, that obsession is what drove them to cross the line and involve innocent people including Sora and the others. Well, that's what I think of Xemnas and a little of Vexen.

The others, they wanted the same thing, but I think some were forced to do the things that they did due to their orders.

Kiria34 · May 6, 2009

organization 13 is amazing =] it like totally is awesome. im sry, but guys in black hoods rly r kewl. theyre strong, and deserve to be noticed =]

Asterisk · May 6, 2009

Wanted hearts but tried getting them with horrible methods.Pretty much evil with their choices.

Princess Celestia · May 7, 2009

Misunderstood...

I've stated why 100 times.

Styx · May 8, 2009

Neither. In my opinion, SE gave them their motives (trying to be complete by finding a heart) because they are so hard to identify with. I don't think any of us can know what not having a heart feels like. That way we will have less qualms when we beat their arses to pulp.
So no. They are not evil nor misunderstood. They aren't understood at all, making judgement rather difficult.

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Kingdom Hearts II Was the Organization Evil?

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