Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

So that he doesn't need to kill them over and over and over again... :\

 

Hmm? Why would he need to do that? (kill the heartless and nobodies) are you talking about that other thread ICSP made?

(but you seem to agree with him being justified, because you are saying he should get rid of them completely.)

 

My definition of evil is that there is no evil or good, but that's besides the point.

And you know this...how? They did not choose their fate, is been shown that Heartless do steal other people's hearts, and I doubt they had the decision to be incomplete and not be able to feel. Again, we're talking about Org. XIII, not only Xemans/Xehanort and the five disciples, because then, it will be understandable, they did give in to darkness for the sake of research.

Doesn't mean it is the same through 7-12. Roxas's existence is self-explainable, and the only reason he left was that he was starting to distrust the Organization and wanted to find out who he is and how he came to be, and how he wields the Keyblade. He knew he wouldn't find the answer staying with the group.

They were not suppose to exist, but they still do.

Not exactly. While that may seem dangerous and even cruel, the understanding of Nobodies is that they cannot feel, they cannot feel regret, sorrow, guilt, and are driven by the desire to have a heart, and will do what they can to obtain it. This doesn't mke them "evil", but more uncapable to see clearly the actions and the consequences, and thus, make them a shade of "grey". Sora had he information, and being smart, he should've kept in mind they do not feel and see that this was a part of their reason why they might act the way they do.

And so, he didn't even care that they didn't feel, knowing how he had treated Demyx, and went out to detroy them anyway instead of trying to understand the problem altogether. If it was any other hero with a brain, I'm sure the plot would've been different, the hero would understand, and if really given no other choice, will be forced to kill them despite knowing what they were and aware of his surroundings and information. That's being justified. Sora had a chance to get info from Demyx (Axel was just giving the straight out point, instead of going more over it, not that he had a chance to finish explaining as the Luna Diviner came in), who was friendly enough, but didn't.

Sorry, Sora's idiocity cannot be justified.

What else to do with them? Get their point of view and try another method, that's what. The only thing that the Org. did was simply concentrate the Heartless to follow and be where Sora was. Is not that they chose which town it has to be simply for doing it, but as you noticed in the game, it's only where Sora goes, so the Keyblade could destroy the majority, and therefore, give more hearts. It's not like the invasion of Heartless weren't still there, the whole worlds are full of Heartless, they just made the selected few appear in the spot Sora goes to next, as well with one of their own creation; Emblem Heartless. They weren't breaking any rules except for those who acted on their own to achieve their orders (Luxord and Xaldin, for example).

The only thing that I find questionable is gathering the hearts in that KH moon, but they were simply doing their goal as the creatures they had turned out to be: Nobodies.

And again, you're confusing Xemnas/Five disciples with the rest. Just because they screwed up, does't mean the rest have to pay for their faults, and not deserve to return, especially since what they wanted was their hearts back. The plotting would've stopped...for the neophytes (7-12), because some of them jumped on board to the fact of getting their hearts back, like Saïx, where we saw that all along, that's what he truly wanted. And it's a sad end. Xemnas wanted to simply create a better world that they could live in, where Nobodies and other like them could live.

What the hell is wrong in creating a world? How do you think the other worlds were created? The only component that I may find wrong is that Xemnas keeps plotting for his own power, considering he might rule over more than he should and make a army, but that doesn't mean the others have to follow...except for perhaps the five scientists that were with him if they agree.

They got their hearts, end of story, that's the reason the Organization was formed, and I think for the members, that's enough to leave.

Mind you, I'm not saying that they are justified as well, I do know what they've done in the game, but you also have to see it in both ways.

 

Come to think about it, Sora really just needed to kill the Org. members that started the problem. However, characters, like Saix, were content with working with Xemnas that they themselves would probably kill off Sora for no reason. Also, had Xemnas succeeded, would HIS world really be any better?

 

The rest of them... I still think that all of them decided to give in to darkness. But they also manipulated darkness during their time as nobodies. As has been shown, darkness is addictive.

Yes, but two did leave the Org. Axel and Roxas. They clearly thought there was more than just gathering hearts. If they left, then why not the rest? Some possibly out of fear, such as Demyx. But in that case he did appear in front of Sora, and the only reason I can think he would do that would be to fight. Sora had no choice there but to battle. He could have tried to move on, but Demyx had been given instructions to do something to Sora, and it sure wasn't give him cookies.

Fine, Sora is an uncaring arrogant turd. But if the perfect hero decides to kill them anyway, perhaps Sora already connected the dots in his head and decided it was the best choice? It does not matter. Sora takes in as much surroundings needed. The org is threatening his friends. It would be nice to ask why they were doing it, but it was not needed. He just chose to strike back, to prevent further harm. He took the "shoot first, ask questions later" which I think was fine, considering the org shot at him first, and his friends were in danger.

While asking is a friendly thing to do, the org did not come right out and ask him to kill heartless. Instead they attacked him, forcing him to kill heartless.

If the org does not feel the need to communicate with Sora, I do not see why he should bother making the effort to ask how he can help them.

Time to tick the org off, shall we?

Zexion, Lexaeus, Larxane, Murluxia and Vexen I put in the same boat. They lured Sora into the castle, gave him false memories that ordered him to kill the org to rescue Namine, and then decided to attack him and make a Replica of his best friend attack him. Understandable these ones kicked the bucket, right?

Axel and Roxas: Sora had nothing to do with them. Axel helped Sora, and Roxas was Sora, and he did not kill them.

Luxord turned Jack into a skeleton. He meddled with the world order, and was overall not in Sora's good books.

Xaldin was undoubtedly allowed to be killed. He warped beast, made a lampshade attack Sora, tried to steal beast's rose, and tried to steal belle. This was interfering with Sora's friend, so Sora helped his friend out.

Xigbar turned a dragon evil, and decided to start shooting at Sora in TWTNW. Not a friendly guy. He also taunted Sora multiple times.

Xemnas was one of the six, the one who unleashed a tide of heartless over the worlds. He was the leader, and ultimately the one who called the shots over everyone except Murluxia.

Saix was Xemnas' right hand man. He kidnapped and imprisoned Kairi, one of the people Sora held closest. He was endorsing everything Xemnas did.

Demyx... He was a sheep, a follower. He died because he hung out with the wrong crowd. He decided to try to stop Sora. He was defeated. I would put him either in the same Category as a Nazi, or a casualty of war.

The thing is, they were disrupting the cycle of the heart. The "new world" as he put it, I thought he meant a Noah's ark type new world. Also, the rest of the Org was with him, the policy of the org in nobody hood was death to leavers. I see no reason this would change when they got hearts.

Six original members, then 6 new members, then Roxas. Roxas and Axel turned away, so I am discounting them. Suddenly, it is now a 6/5 ratio of bad to good. You can hardly grant the five (who still attacked Sora) hearts, and leave the rest dead.

They stopped the heart doing the thing a heart does. They also concentrated heartless in certain areas around Sora for their own gain. Even if he would kill heartless anyway, summoning them to attack him is just not on.

 

Not again...

Oy...we're going through this again? :nono:

Look, for all we know, Master Xehanort from BBS started this whole mess in the first place. But since this is about Sora vs. the Organization, ol' Geezernort's irrelevant for the time being.

There's no pure good. There's no pure evil. We as humans understand that things aren't black and white, but a moral grayscale spectrum of ethics.

Sora didn't instigate this fight. He was thrust into it by some disembodied voice that plopped a giant metal key in his lap. Heartless destroyed his home. Sora was told to smack around Heartless with the Keyblade or else other worlds would be in peril.

Xehanort's Heartless possessed Riku. Ticks off Sora. Sora commits suicide for his girlfriend. Creates Namine and Roxas. Xemnas picks up Roxas. Marluxia picks up Namine.

Namine is tortured by a sadist drama queen, and some Herbal Essence spokesmodel. Sora defeats Xehanort's Heartless. Splits up with the girl he loves to find his best friend. Sora, Donald and Goofy walk along the road.

And here's where the Organization starts the fight. Marluxia coaxes Sora to Castle Oblivion. They begin playing mindgames with him. Vexen creates Repliku. Sora's memories gets altered and begins getting pissed off by how the Castle Oblivion members view the whole situation as a game. Takes down Vexen (but is finished off by Axel). Takes down Larxene. Marluxia would've destroyed Namine if Repliku hadn't interfered. Zexion and Lexaeus try to corrupt Riku. They fail and are eliminated.

Riku goes after the Organization. Sora sleeps for a year.

Roxas leaves the Org. Org orders Axel to bring Roxas in dead or alive. Roxas forced to fuse back with Sora.

Sora wakes up. Is told the Organization are destroying the worlds by Yen Sid (so maybe you should blame Yen Sid for the whole turning Sora loose against the Org). Sora ends up in Hollow Bastion. And the Organization casts the first stone by summoning Nobodies to attack the gate in the Bailey. Sora hadn't even met the Organization until now and he's the one being attacked. NOT the other way around. Organization flees. Then Xigbar blocks their path. He verbally taunts them. Sora STILL hasn't actually been able to attack the Organization yet. Xigbar flees.

Sora goes off on his journey. Meets Xaldin who tried to turn Beast into Heartless. Kairi ends up in Twilight Town. Axel kidnaps her. And as soon as Sora ends up in Twilight Town, it's the Organization (specifically Saix) who attacked some defenseless kids (Seifer, Rai & Fuu). Now tell me, how does attacking the Disciplinary Committee help the Organization's goals? Unless there's a reason, Saix did that for kicks and nothing else.

And this was all BEFORE the whole destroying Demyx bit.

I guess I'm just paraphrasing Pika Power, but I'm also listing the events that happened BEFORE Sora killed Demyx. Saix attacked defenseless kids. Xigbar verbally taunted the hero. The Org attacked Hollow Bastion before Sora even laid eyes on the Organization. Demyx stole the Olympus Stone and knocked over poor Phil. Xaldin was trying to make Beast into a Heartless. And the Chain of Memories group pretty much got what was coming to them.

Now, unless someone can justify Saix's actions at Twilight Town and the Organization's actions for attacking in the Bailey, those two points are pretty much stapled.

I still say Sora was justified. Marluxia, Larxene, Vexen, Xigbar, Xaldin, Saix, (and if you're counting Kairi's kidnapping) Axel. Seven out of thirteen. Demyx would count since he was the one who stole the Stone and attacked Sora instead of running away, but I already know that those who don't believe Sora was justified will use him as collateral damage, so I'm not counting him.

I'd count Lexaeus and Zexion too, but that was Riku's problem. If anything, someone should make a topic if RIKU was justified. True, Repliku got the final hit on Zexion and in Re:CoM, Xehanort's Heartless finished off Lexaeus, but both of them still screwed around with him.

 

This is the best of both worlds... I now have other people posting that Sora was unjustified, and Nomura himself saying that its possible to become whole again after losing your hearts to darkness... making a good catch all arguement... isnt life grand...

This is what just happened to me in this arguement...

Why would you think they gave into darkness? Its not confirmed.

But... If thats all it takes to justify someones death... then Sora and Riku should die too.

Axel left the Org because he got emo with Roxas.

Who knows why Roxas left the Org... probably because he remembered his true memories, but thats another story alltogether.

Demyx probably wanted to get Roxas back... Nomura said that Nobodies could become whole again, so perhaps Demyx knew this, and knew that they could turn Roxas back into Sora.

There is always a choice... Shooting first asking questions later is something a bad guy would do. And what danger were Sora's friends ever in? Becoming a heartless? Thats undoable... When you think about it that way... they were never in any danger.

Ok... attacking him with heartless might not be very nice... but it certainly doesnt mean they were tring to kill him.

They never sent a heartless after him that he wasnt capable of defeating. Also, if the heartless wernt there attacking Sora, they would have been attacking other people, creating more heartless. Think of it like this... Sora is a heartless exterminator, and they brought the heartless to him for him to exterminate.

Why communicate with Sora when it can only confuse him? Sora isn't capable of handling knowledge... remember what happened last time they tried to communicate with him? Larxene died...

The castle oblivion Org members... you missed the whole point of CoM. The Org members were having an internal civil war... you cannot put them all in the same boat as they were struggling against each other.

Axel/Roxas: Your right... they should be left out of it.

Luxord: Luxord did do wrong. He used the power of the curse to empower Jack Sparrow. He also led a heartless which would have probably taken out the whole world anyway straight to Sora and Suped Up Jack, so it could be killed.

Xaldin: A heartless beast was undoable. He never intended to kindapp Belle or steal the Rose, but he intended to turn Beast into a Heartless, which Like I said... I undoable.

Xigbar: He saved Sora when Sora was being overtaken by heartless. How evil is that? He, possibly, shot at Sora so he could die, and get his heart back. I dont think he alone is responsible for the dragon heartless. I hear everyone point thier fingers at him... but have yet to see the sorce of it myself.

Saix: He wanted his heart back. Nothing more... I have already adequetly defended him, he only acted like a jerk when Sora spit in his face and said he would rather take out Org XIII than save HUMAN lives and fight heartless. I need not say more.

Demyx: How can you hate on him? Casualties of war are still sad.

Actually... the heartless disrupted the cycle of hearts. They were actually returning it to normal by bringing heartless to Sora to kill.

Yes you can... if it requires you kill some people who are not evil to kill someone who might be evil... then you youself are evil.

What did they stop? Then intended for the heart to return to a whole being, rather than be lost into darkness. In this aspect they did good.

Also... where's Repliku? This can't be a round 3 without him...

 

Hmm...

Roxas left because he wanted to know why he wielded the Keyblade. He said so himself.

Uh...don't really know how to argue that point for the time being...

Might I ask HOW they would've changed them back? It's not like they could get Kairi to hug every single Heartless that was once their friends to change them back.

True. But a Heartless' sole purpose (other than Xehanort's) is to take other beings hearts for their own. They attack by instinct. And if the Org knew that, then they're indirectly attacking Sora through the Heartless.

If they didn't want to harm Sora, why bring up the Heartless in the first place? They have their own weapons available. They could just summon a bunch of them, line them up, and destroy them like fish in a barrel.

And yet, Sora was an integral part of their plans. They screwed him by beckoning him to come to Castle Oblivion in the first place. If they had left him alone to look for Riku like he was planning...

Kind of a paradox. Jack Sparrow's supposed to be immortal and invincible when in his skeleton from, yet he can still get knocked out. And Luxord never led anything. He summoned it on purpose.

Are you telling us that Belle could've easily brought Beast back from Heartless form? Or is there some other way to undo it without relying on a Princess of Heart?

​

This brings up a point that you never answered before. WHO summoned the Heartless in the first place? It certainly wasn't Sora.

​

Bringing up the other irrefutable point of him attacking Seifer, Rai and Fuu. He's the one in control of all of the Berserker Nobodies. So, what was the purpose of him attacking them?

That is IF the Org's Kingdom Hearts was going to be used to return them to normal.

That'd be the gray area right there, dude. You can't save lives without killing another. It's the whole balancing act.

WHY did they need Sora to begin with? If they had the power to summon Heartless and they also had the weaponry to release those hearts, why didn't they just summon and congregate a whole bunch of them into one room and go on a heart-freeing frenzy?

EDIT: And in case you're wondering, the answer's because I felt like it. :p

 

That would be cool... but there is another way.

I'll let Nomura answer that... (Thanks TwilightNight for the quote)

Also: The reason they didnt just go on a heart freeing frezy on thier own... is because apparently only the keyblade could free thier hearts.

 

Oh, right. The Nomura interview. Nice piece of ammo you got there.

If that were true:

A) What's the whole point of KH:358/2? If Roxas is the only one who can release hearts, then...

B) How are hearts released without the Keyblade? (i.e. Sephiroth when he meets Cloud, Xigbar when he "saves" Sora, every one of Sora's allies when defeating Heartless, etc.)

And you still haven't answered my question. If Xigbar was helping Sora from being overrun by Heartless, WHO summoned the Heartless to attack Sora in the first place?

I mean, when it comes to Demyx, the usual counter argument is that he is to be pitied. Sora destroyed him without remorse. Even though Demyx was the one blocking the way.

And as for Xaldin, you say it's reversible. (Which you wouldn't have known until you had the Nomura interview to back you up) But if that were true, why antagonize Beast anyway?

You might be saying that Saix is acting that way because Sora spat in his face. Well, I ask what happened immediately BEFORE that? Can you justify Saix's actions at Twilight Town?

And I still haven't heard any response about the Org at the Bailey. The Org didn't show themselves until AFTER they attacked the gates. Why attack the gates in the first place? Sora was only warning Leon about the Org right before they summoned their Nobodies to attack.

So, yeah. There are events that could support either side. The main difference is you're using the arguments "Why?" while I'm using the arguments "When?"

 

You knew I had it. I made a thread about it.

Aparently... to start this arguement.

Roxas and Sora can both release hearts. Sephiroth never releases a heart. Also, when Xigbar saves Sora from the heartless, no heart is released.

Saix did, I have no problem admitting it. Saix told Sora, he needed one more helping of hearts. He expected Sora to fight. But Sora being an idiot got distracted by Kairi, and got overrun by the heartless. Its not Saix fault Sora is too stupid to fight back. So Xigbar saved him. If Xigbar and Saix were truly evil... they could have just let him die.

Demyx was murdered. Sora could have just ran by him. But instead, Sora stopped and faught him. He talked Demyx into fighting him, when Demyx turned around to walk away.

DO NOT COUNTER WITH THE ARGUEMENT SORA WAS CONCERNED ABOUT HIS FRIENDS!!! After the battle, Sora said he would have rather stayed and taken on the rest of Org XIII rather than save the natives of Hallow Bastion. Bottom line, Sora wanted to kill Demyx, Demyx didn't need to die.

But Xaldin probably knew it. He was a scientist who spent a decade reserching hearless and nobodies.

I don't know why he antagonized Beast. But he wasn't going to do anything he couldnt undo.

Because he knew Sora would take them out. Notice, he claps for Sora. Also, dont you think one Berzerker could have taken out Twilight Town if Sora wasnt there? Saix' intentions were not to destroy the town... he easily could have at leisure.

Also, it gets Sora's attention, so he could warn him about Axel. It was nice in a Saix kinda way.

I did respond. It was to restore the nobodies who's heartless were already defeated. Think of it like a trial run to see if thier formula worked.

I think what was OrgXIII's motivation.

 

I'll concede on the Xigbar bit. But if the former were true, then perhaps you can explain the animation of any Heartless being destroyed. (i.e. The sequence right before Mickey stops Sora and the others from continuing.) Cloud, Leon, Sephiroth and even Stitch all released something with their weapons. And that doesn't look like cotton candy to me.

And yet, wasn't this right after Xemnas gave Saix permission to "end this charade?" If they didn't need Sora anymore, then why bother sending those Heartless out in the first place?

Another point, Sora would've just kept on walking if Saix hadn't said anything.

I'm not calling them evil (since we both know that won't get us anywhere). But Sora didn't fight back because by this point, he was still trying to prevent Kingdom Hearts from being finished.

Come on. This is near the end of the game and Sora's mind is pretty much made up. The Org screwed around with his friends, the worlds and his memories (even though he doesn't remember) and he wants it to end once and for all. His main objective was to find Riku and Kairi, then go home. The Organization interfered with that objective. So instead of having to go from point A to point B, Sora realizes that he's not going to be left alone in peace until he gets rid of the ones who have been hounding him since that Xemnas fight in Final Mix. (And before you say that it wasn't canon, I'd like to point out that some of the arguments are being based on additional cutscenes from KH2:FM. If the Xemnas fight isn't accepted as canon, than neither should the KH2:FM cutscenes.)

Uh-uh. Demyx didn't even have to appear at all. The fact that Demyx didn't walk away makes him just as liable as Sora is.

Since we're talking about stupidity, just why did Demyx stick around anyway? To distract Sora? To make him angry? If Demyx was any smarter than Sora (because we both know Sora's an idiot at times), he would've avoided the battle altogether.

By this time, Sora's already had enough of the mind games being played. Of course, he's going to lash out. But we've already been through this a few pages back.

And FYI, I wasn't planning to use the "friend argument."

Not entirely true. If this was all an experiment and Beast was his subject, then we might as well be arguing about the justification of Ansem's disciple's illegal experiments. It's unethical to use sentient beings for experiments without their permission or at least with them knowing that it's for research.

So, let me get this straight. Sora and co. were just walking casually around Twilight Town. All of a sudden, Vivi comes running out of nowhere shouting for someone to help. And who said anything about attacking the town? My point is what was the reason in attacking Seifer? You might say it was to get his attention...

...oh wait. You did. Yeah, attacking a buncha kids armed with foam bats is REAL nice. That seemed more like a provocation, wouldn't you say? If Saix wanted to get his attention so bad, why couldn't he just have appeared in front of him like Xigbar, Xaldin or Demyx did? I don't see Sora attacking helpless creatures if he wants to talk to them, do you? Saix attacked those guys first. Sora comes in with his heroic complex to defend them when they were already down for the count.

Sora's viewpoint: Nobodies are attacking humans. Humans can't fight back. Humans need saving. Destroy the Nobodies before they cause any more harm.

There was a whole lot more simpler way of getting Sora's attention besides attacking random people. So Saix isn't without fault.

What the...So what you're saying is that they selected a bunch of Nobodies to attack the gates, so Sora and Leon would send them back to restore their bodies? It was RIGHT THERE that they could've told Sora about their plan. They didn't have to send anything out. Sora couldn't attack them from their perch. They could've just spoiled the entire storyline right at that moment. But instead they waste time trying to break through a damn gate...

They attacked first. If Sora was really out for Org blood, he would've spent the entire game looking for their stronghold instead of looking for Riku and Kairi which was his number one goal in the first place.

Oh really...I thought it was because they were trying to become whole again.

 

Goodness gracious, I'm so lost at the moment xP. I was awaiting to answer Pika_Power's, but now I don't know if I should, since ICSP answered (and I did kind of come in), and some were one of the points that I was going to bring up or something of the like, and then Destiny's Force brought up the rear. Since is one by one now, I'll gues I'll drop for awhile, until it gets to be two over one or something.

 

Hey, twilightnight, guess who's back!

Anyway, Xaldin was irritating Beast. He was distressing Belle. Sure, turning them into heartless is fixable, but only with difficulty. Who knows where the heart will appear? Sora was lucky, he kept thought, and went after Kairi. Beast would probably just go with the masses. Besides, Sora would still need to waste time finding and fighting Beast. The org knew Sora was a dunce. Then if they attack a friend of his, well Sora will react, right?

What I am trying to say is that if I break your friend's arms and legs, and spit in the wound in the name of my club, you will behave rather strangely to the next member you see, right?

Also, the hearts were being re-directed! Instead of going to where hearts go (the real Kingdom hearts?) they went to the org's collection. I am just assuming the next thing, but I think that the hearts were going to be expended, used up.

Also, I find all this "giving Sora the heartless" very strange. They were leading him to heartless to gather hearts for themselves. Also, they persisted in "gifting" heartless to him, even after he has said "Forget it, I don't want to do this any more"

Also, any heartless that is not a Shadow or darkside is Org made. That reaper heartless was under Luxord's control. He left it to Sora, to harvest the heart! They were not doing any of this out of love for the worlds.

But this is turning into a "Was the org justified?" topic.

After all that Sora had done to him, he was out to stop the org hurting his friends. (and turning them into heartless does count!)

Also, the time he killed most was at proof of existence, with the graves. It was the org's last stand. They were sealing off Xemnas, buying him time. Sora had to end it, or Xemnas would have used Kingdom hearts clone to make a "new world" and by that, I think he meant erasing the other worlds.

Also, I do not see why Sora had to keep jumping through the org's hoops. To live his own life is a good reason to get rid of them. You make it sound like Sora is obliged to help the org. In reality, he did the right thing. The org held secrets to darkness. They were too interested in hearts. They were endangering worlds.

After all they did to Sora, he just wanted them out of his life. To do that, they needed to die. If they succeeded more heartless would appear. As for the rest of the org, let's say we killed all the "bad members" leaving the "not as bad members" What would happen? If they continued with the plain Sora is still being harassed, and he would achieve nothing.

What was Sora meant to do? I want a detailed answer to the exact action that should have been taken. Not just "He should have talked to them!"

My main points are:

1. They are harming Sora and his friends. If you slip up when fighting these heartless, you die.

2. They are using hearts for their own gain.

3. If they succeed, there is the strong chance of more bad behaviour.

 

Yes and no.

Some of the organization did deserve to die. They were truly evil and what they were doing is wrong but not all of them were.

Xemnas was strict, you do something against the organization and your dead, it's the same with leaving. If they hadn't done as ordered or tried to leave they would have been killed. They may not have had hearts but none of them wanted to die.

So yes Sora killing some of the organization members is justified but it wasn't right to kill all of them.

Truthfully I think that Xemnas was using the member's yearning for hearts to get them to help him with whatever plan he had for kingdom hearts.

 

Glad to have you :).

I'll simply let this slide since this mostly answers to ICSP, in which he's the one making his point and I don't know where is headed, however, I do have to say that the Org. did not know Sora was a dunce, lol. That is only viewer's opinion, not to the game in itself. For the most part, the Organization were simply more on using him, it wasn't like they knew him.

And what's the difference between KH and a fake one? It's still Kingdom Hearts, and is where the hearts go. What they did with the hearts is simply used the energy they had to charge it up, and remember, Xemnas did that, he was able to gain more power in front of Sora and co. at the remaining hearts that were left after Ansem's machine did its job (which were many). The hearts weren't "expended" or "used" up, they were fine, whole, and kept falling down with the cute pink glow.

Is not strange, is simply planning to charge Kingdom Hearts faster, and thus, get their hearts. The only reason Sora said "forget it" was because thanks to Axel, it was revealed that he was helping Organization XIII with releasing the hearts with keyblade for them to use it, which was ZOMGTHEEVILZ. It wasn't even "forget it", he just didn't know what to do. Why would they stop just because he wants to? They have a goal they badly desire to accomplish. Sora's job is just usually destroying Heartless most of the time, he does this daily and easily, and the Org. just simply used this to get more hearts in their KH faster. Other than giving him extra work, Sora didn't seem to mind destroying the Heartless until he heard what the Org. was trying to do on collecting said hearts.

They can't even feel love, lol, they either couldn't care or be neutral. That's the thing. They are Nobodies, things that would matter to humans with hearts, don't matter to them because they are unable to do so. The Reaper Heartless wasn't under Luxord's control, he simply summoned it and from then, it acted on its own.

Apparently, Luxord also knew that Sora will defeat it, because then he left as his mission was done. That's the thing...they knew Sora will defeat it, in someway, somehow, the Org. knew. It wasn't like they just summoned a Heartless in a world just because they wanted to, it was because Sora was there and will destroy it, with the help of his friends. They planned ahead and used the predictable action he will do to their advantage.

So yeah, it was the Org.'s last stand....? Anyway, they weren't buying him time, and sealing him off, they were simply stopping Sora as they all went out to fight him from ruining what they've been working so hard on. You can see, that this is also what Saïx did when asking Xemnas's permission to stop them, as Sora was useless to them now, and as we know, he wanted his heart, perhaps even more badly than the rest as he reached for it when fading. That's what he was fighting for. And I'm sure it was the same for the others, or else they wouldn't have joined the Organization in the first place.

And it wasn't "erasing the other worlds", Xemnas told this to Ansem The Wise precisely, that he will create a new world, simply just that. Other than the fact that you're bringing "erasing worlds" when nothing Xemnas said pointed to it, there is no reason for him to erase the rest when he will gain nothing. What? What will he gain from that? He'll more likely want to take over than making such a action. I don't think he would've said in the end that he thought Ansem The Wise would praise him for his accomplishments, if it wasn't something his teacher wouldn't agree with, don't you?

Wow, you are merely making Sora look like a merciless, cold, little rat here. Kill them just because he wants to live his life? That's a selfish statement to make and is in no way in part of a hero. Being a Keyblade wielder is his life, he would have to travel again, until there is permanent peace. There's nothing ordinary about his life, especially since after defeating Demyx, he was shouting for the Org. to come at him, and Donald and Goofy had to remind him about his friends, and then he's like, "oh yeah, let's go". Wth?

Sora isn't obliged to help the Org., nobody is telling him you got to help them, but if he understood and found what they were honestly trying to do (because it wasn't until The World That Never Was where his brain started to function, and began placing a sad face), he woud've taken a much better route, gathering information from better sources, and make his own way for what to do. No, he just simply followed the flow and what everyone else told him.

They weren't exactly endangering worlds if they knew Sora will come and take care of it, and the problem will be solved soon, I don't know what is the point of you saying that they held secrets to darkness...how does that make them "evil"? They never really had much secrets except for Xemnas and his "Room Of Sleep".

And so what if they were interested in hearts? They are Nobodies, like the creatures they are, they desire the heart, because they don't have one.

If Sora had talked, or either destroyed the ones who were at the core, the Org. will simply disband. You have to keep in mind that Xemnas, who provides the members' missions and tells them what to do, is the lead and with the plots, perhaps along with a few of the disciples (three in which were killed in CoM), so yeah, nothing would've happened and it will be a more clean success. The rest weren't smart enough to come up with their own idea or plan if the brains were gone. They weren't scientists or researchers.

So yeah, it would've been stopped without any more problems.

I already answered that before, and now in what I wrote above me. And what's so bad with talking to them? That's the usual non-battling, correct way of solving things that would end to a agreement. That's wrong?

1. The only one they truly harmed is Beast, and that was Xaldin acting independently. As for Kairi being kidnapped, they weren't even doing nothing to her, just keeping her locked up.

When fighting Heartless you don't "die", your heart gets lost, and Sora was skilled enough in handling them as a fly, after what? One year? 365 days? The rest of his friends weren't in danger to them as long as he was there, and even if he wasn't, it doesn't stop the Heartless from swarming by themselves naturally.

2. Again, I do not know how is this wrong, since they were simply doing the same thing that Kingdom Hearts did. As I have said above, the hearts do not get "used" or "expended", they could be even freed in the way of what Ansem had done.

3. Bad behaviour how? They had gained what they wanted, there's nothing else to do. I'm sure Xemnas and those more loyal will remain, but what about those that only joined to get their hearts back? They'll be free, either living in Xemnas's new world or going elsewhere. Who's to know what would happen, and who's to not?

Face it. The Org. were merely killed because the plot and game said they had to with a questionable story as to what they did wrong.

 

What would cause all worlds to self-destruct leaving paradox to the space-time continuim? There was nothing, nothing in the game that said that type of thing and consequence will happen at all, this is merely a assumption that you got yourself. The Kingdom Hearts universe, isn't our universe, not to mention you're putting physics into a fictional game. That's why I didn't answer. Xemnas used Kingdom Hearts, he did so, done deal, nothing happened. The worlds didn't disrupt, nothing was done, people didn't die.

There's nothng wrong with the members using a energy powered KH moon to get brand new hearts, is not like the worlds are going to be affected, but merely the Org. Nobodies themselves. Their goal didn't disrupt anything except for the actions they took to gain it, which weren't even really that bad save for two or three members, they just simply quicken up the pace.

 

How do you know it would be nothing? I don't know if would be nothing or not but Sora ain't gonna take that chance b Kingdom Hearts is the heart of all worlds and if someone enters it or it becomes a new one will it destroy everything? Or will they get their hearts back? We may never know.

 

Darn... I was hoping you would. This is a good piece of ammo... but nonetheless.

Many of the Org members did seem to be acting alone. This is a strike against Xaldin alone, not necisarily the entire Organization. You cannot put one person to death for being associated with another.

Also, as explained by Nomura, Xaldin could have reversed Beast's transformation and turned him back into a normal person. Who knows, putting Beast through the process, may even have broken the curse. Notice, when Xaldin was originaly talking to Beast, it appeared as if Beast was friends with Xaldin, as Beast showed no aggresion towards Xaldin but rather he did towards Sora. I'm not saying its cannon, but it is possible.

*Yes its true... I did make a theory that defends Xaldin... it was harder than Saix*

Ok... first of all, if The Org is justified, than Sora is not justified in destroying them. Its the same arguement.

I hope you dont mind that I chopped up your post. *TwilightNight* answered most of your arguements, so I see no need to reasnswer all of them... just a few choice ones.



Sora could have reasoned with Org XIII. He had several opportunities, yet he didn't take advantage of asking them how they could work it out. Saix at Twilght Town, Demyx in Hallow Bastion, Saix in Hallow Bastion. And those are just the obvios ones, where Org XIII showed a desire to talk. Also, that is how problems are solved in real life. By talking. Killing people never really solved anything.

1. They were not threatening Sora. They were keeping him out of danger. Saix warned Sora of Axel's malicious intent. Xigbar saved Sora the one time he was overrun by Heartless.

2. They were using heartless's hearts for thier own gain... a gain that was not evil. They wanted to restore thier hearts, using the hearts of a heartless, not living hearts.

3. Well... there is a chance that my nextdoor neighbor could be a serial killer... you don't see me going to kill him because of a chance. All the neophytes wanted was to restore thier hearts. There is nothing in the game to show otherwise for any of them other than Marluxia and maybe Larxene.

Xemnas seemed remorseful that he was a nobody, and that he was responscible for the heartless and was incapable of feeling sorrow. If he had a heart he would have definatly been remorseful, since his soul told him to be remorseful... I'm sure his heart would have as well.

Ok... where did this come from? I mean, brining up paradox's out of nowhere... I'm confused.

How could someone getting thier heart back destroy all the worlds? Sora got his heart back, and no world exploded.

They would get there hearts back... Nomura said its possible. Since Nomura is the omnipotent god of that universe it must be true.

 

Let's search the Court Record.

I see you decided to ignore me once again. Either you don't have counters for what I've put out there or you don't see me as much of a threat.

However, I decided to up my game this time. And since you like evidence so much, I'll do you one better. Here's how the sequence went when Sora first met the Organization in KH2:



(Stupid Photobucket shrunk it. )

Leon: So Sora. Do you know what's going on, then?
*Skip lines of Pete and the Heartless*
Sora: The ones we need to worry about are the Nobodies.
Goofy: And those Organization guys in charge, too!
Xemnas: You called?
*Sora and co. run out into the open*
Saix: You're doing well.
Sora: Who's that?
Xemnas: This calls for a celebration.
*Nobodies are summoned*
*Sora starts to run after Donald and Goofy*
*Sees Leon getting ambushed*
*Dusks head straight for the gate*
*Leon and Sora battle*
Xemnas: The Keyblade...a truly marvelous weapon.
Xemnas: Were it in more...capable hands...
Sora: Show yourselves!
Organization FINALLY appears.
*Skip scene of Sora glancing at Donald and Goofy. They nod in agreement*
Sora: Good. Now we can settle this!
Xemnas: What a shame.
Xemnas: And here I thought we could be friends.
*Organization "laughs" at Sora before disappearing.
Sora: Stop!

Now let me ask this. How many opportunities did the Organization have to explain themselves?

• Xemnas: This calls for a celebration.
• Sora: Show yourselves!
• *Organization "laughs" at Sora before fleeing.

And Sora even shouted for them to "Stop!" If they had wanted to talk, they should've done so instead of mocking him.

Oh, and let's not forget the conversation the Org had afterwards:

This not only explains Demyx's reluctance to go through with the job, but also shows that the Organization "planted the seeds in his path." In other words, "Let's screw the kid by causing havoc in other worlds. He won't know it's us until it's too late.

And then the Olympus Stone is stolen.



Hercules: The Olympus Stone has been stolen. All we're sure of is that it was a guy in a black-hooded cloak. *And he had accomplices--a bunch of creatures in white.
Sora and co find Phil.
Sora: Phil! What happened?
Phil: I spotted this strange guy all dressed in black. I chased after him, but he turned on me. Next thing I know, I'm seeing stars.

It might have been Demyx's orders to take the stone, but if he REALLY was planning on helping Sora, he would've given it up when he showed it instead of attacking. And before you say that all Demyx only summoned water clones and that doesn't count as attacking him, then how in the world do you lose if you DON'T destroy them within the time limit? Yeah, Goofy shouted, "He's gotta be the thief!" and Demyx replied, "Now, that's just plain rude!" But instead of using the Stone on himself, he could've talked to Sora. As soon as Sora realizes that he wasn't a threat, he would've eventually put away the Keyblade.

Basically, it all comes down to this simple question.

"WHO ATTACKED FIRST?"

Let's rewind to back when Sora first woke up. He and the others go run to the train station. Suddenly, they're surrounded by Dusks. If you had just woken up a year later and was suddenly surrounded by a bunch of white rubbery creatures with teeth, other than wetting your pants, what'd be the first thing you do? And before you say it was because the Org wanted to restore those Nobodies, keep in mind that Sora had never even heard of them yet. As far as he knows, a bunch of unknown creatures that look like predators have them cornered. In other words, he can't be out for Organization XIII's blood if he had never met them yet.

Next point. You still didn't justify Saix's actions against Seifer and his gang. You say it was to get Sora's attention. But that doesn't excuse the fact that he ordered the attacks on Seifer to begin with. He had power. He abused that power. That makes him "evil" in a sense.

And that leads me to this next question. Out of the entire KH2 game, when did Sora ever abuse his powers? The Organization clearly had more tools at their disposal. When one is powerful and chooses to abuse that power, they're known as "bullies." Sora never had any malicious intent against them until he found out that they were the ones who were sending out Heartless and Nobodies throughout the worlds, ripping open the corridors of darkness. Pete and Maleficent might have had some control over the Heartless, but the Organization was the bigger threat. I say that because their plan was unknown and they never bothered to explain it despite all of those opportunities to answer.

Oh and while we're on the subject of Saix's actions, remember the conversation that he and Xemnas had immediately afterwards:

Now if Xemnas comments didn't sound sadistic, then I don't know how you're interpreting that. He just said he "hurt him." And now he will begin to "hate even himself."

Oh yeah, and let's not forget the other point about how the Keyblade is the ONLY weapon that can release hearts. If that's true, then what do you call those things that come out of the Heartless that are defeated:



As you can see, the Keyblade isn't the ONLY weapon that can release hearts. Stitch, Leon, Cloud and Sephiroth were all able to accomplish the exact same result. And they're not the Keyblade's chosen one. Which brings up the question of if it was possible, then why bother with Sora in the first place? And don't say that the Organization didn't know. They've been doing this whole bit for an entire year so the argument for ignorance is out of the question.

I'm only bringing up as many points as possible before the second Demyx fight. Because no matter what event and argument anyone puts up after that point, the counter will always be "Demyx didn't deserve to die. Sora taunted him and killed him in cold blood. Sora called out the rest of the Organization infuriating them and caused everything that happened afterwards. That's the reason why Saix is cold to him. It sounded like he spat in their face."

So in conclusion, the Organization is more at fault than Sora is. THEY attacked first. They had plenty of opportunities if they had wanted to talk to Sora. They had more power than Sora combined and they chose to abuse those powers.

Somehow I feel like I'm in a tag team match with me and Pika_Power versus ICSP and *TwilightNight*. The only equalizer out there is Repliku and I don't think he's going to get involved in this for awhile...