Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

Ah but, see, that's the point of this thread. You say he needed to kill and fight them, but why did he need to do this? Simply because they were in the organization. We're discussing whether or not killing people for the crime of simply being involved was justified on Sora's part.

Sora was following orders, and at the time he thought it was the best way. However, I think that if he would've known some background information about the organization and their motives and history, he may not have gone into those battles and ripped them all apart limb from limb, LIKE Demyx and Xaldin.
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*Stands back up, throwing off his cape like James Brown in his prime!*

Huh, I feel good!

Zexion's was the same way.

I heartedly endorse this product, and or service!

Thats the point I was tring to make all along. Some people think that someone being part of the Org, justifies thier distruction. Wrong.

They were in the Org becuase they were nobodies, who maintained thier human form. They thus were by default Org members, what else could they do?

If you look at Sora's rants, he basically justifies killing all of the Org because they have no hearts. But that is unfair!

They were basically born (I know they were not really born, but work with me) that way. Killing someone, then justifing it because of the way they were born is, by definition, GENOCIDE!

Now, I doubt anyone would justify genocide... would you?

 

Again, ICSP, show one time Sora says "You must die because you are in the Organization".

The only character that was really questionable is Demyx and again, Sora called him out, but Demyx had the power to leave instead of turning and giving into some 'brat's words' to go on an all out attempt to kill Sora too. There is no point where Sora says they have to -die-. He wanted to stop them because what they were doing was wrong. Show some lines instead of backing up people like Saix, Xaldin and Xemnas. Xigbar and Luxord didn't seem so bad to me but they were doing the wrong thing and both were prepared to go down fighting too. There is NOTHING showing Sora was going out of his way to -kill- anyone. He wanted the Org to stop, they NEVER asked him for help or anyone else for that matter, and they did not want a new thing.

Now, had there been a way to take out Xemnas early on, who had this nefarious scheme going...well maybe Xigbar and Luxord might have changed things around. Saix though keeps getting defended and he's the 2nd worst out of all of them. He was the one who made Sora's mood worse when dealing with the Org. He also had his head up Xemnas's butt so far I'm surprised Xemnas could breathe.

So, perhaps if Sora had some -help- from the guys in black, some sign they weren't all willing to do the dirty work etc of Xemnas and some hope that he didn't have to -kill- them, he wouldn't have done so. I like the Org and do think a few could have been 'redeemed' to anti-hero status of some sort sometime, but there just never presented a case of the opportunity except for Axel. Sora did what he -had- to do and until I see something that shows he didn't -have- to do it, this goes in circles. He's also again, a 15 year old kid taking on all of these adults with a super scheme that had been planned possibly while he was very young. It's not Sora who had to do things different though. It's the members of the Organization that had to do something.

Of course the problem with Org members doing 'something'. Well look at how hard a time Axel had. He didn't want to go after his friend, he's threatened to be a Dusk. Xaldin backs up Xemnas on this. Axel leaves the Org to try to get Roxas back, Saix is pursuing him etc and using the scene to confuse Sora all the more. Then there's Xemnas, who they all have to have a healthy respect (fear if they had Hearts) of. Leaving the Org for some who might have been 'willing to', was not an option. So, yes, it is a sad thing they have an oppressive dictator as a leader and people who will be his 'yes men' to their deaths but seriously, why does Sora get crap for that? He even tried to talk down Xemnas. Really, it's not Sora's fault they are in the predicament they are in and no one -says a thing- to him. He's doing what he needs to. The only ones who tried to 'break away' were Marluxia and Larxene (well, other than Roxas), and Marluxia was not out to do any better than Xemnas and probably would have done worse had he succeeded in any effort..though I think he was doomed after a certain point in CoM near the end of Sora's story, regardless of what he'd do.

So yeah, not all of the Org may have -deserved- to die, but they -had- to die in order to stop Xemnas and finally get to him. None helped Sora but Axel to any level. Saix was -playing- with Sora so really I don't get why he keeps being said he's a -good guy-. He's one of the worst of all of the Nobodies. I really do not though see where any didn't -have- to die or didn't make a choice to make a stand themselves. Even Demyx decided to stay after a 15 year old taunted him. A 15 year old...I mean seriously...come on. If I, as an adult, go hit some 15 year old for telling me to F off etc, I'm going to jail. So, yeah, I'm not saying they -all- deserved to die here, but they HAD to die because none presented any other options. They all stood in Sora's way and that's just how it goes.

 

Thats all it takes to win the arguement? Ok fine... Right after he killed Demyx, he stomped his feet, yelling "Anyone from the Organization want to be next!"

Meaning, anyone from the Org who stepped forward, would be killed.

OMG! Thats so funny... its like. I cant stop laughing.

Twilight Town, when he meets Saix.

Thats my point! Is Repliku actually agreeing with me? Am I starting to break through to him? *reads the entire post again...* Nope.

But what if the 15 year old comes at you with a sword, and you hit him with a sitar? You might spend the night in jail, but hes going to prison for assult with a deadly weapon.

*THE DEBATE CONTINUES*

 

Nope, he says it as a challenge because he's sick of being challenged and messed with by them. He wants it out in the open. He's not saying to 'kill them'. He wants to confront them and get the issue out in the open. Anyone he got in a fight with planned on doing him in. He was frustrated and angry and why not? They -did- try to change one of his friends to a Heartless. They did steal from the Gods of Olympus, they were scheming things and he was being messed with and lied to. Again, show where he says he wants to do them in. There isn't a point. A challenge to make people stop messing with him isn't the same.

Yeah, but it's so true!

Saix was in total support, absolutely of what Xemnas was doing. He was perhaps more his right hand man than Xigbar who had the #2 spot. He was -using- Sora and being two-faced and anyone could see through it.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/915410/42847 - Here's a script of KH2 and I can't find anywhere that Saix is so innocent asking for help from his oppressive lord or for any other ideas to come up of plans for the Org to do to resolve their scenario. Saix seems to pretty well toy with Sora. He was, as I've said many times, one of the worst members of the Org, at least when it comes to being a real enemy anyone would have had no choice but to stop.

I have not thought they all 'deserved' to die. That would be pretty cold. I have said I empathize with their situation and all and thought the Org were pretty cool; each in their own way. However, as I've said, they never offered another sort of solution from stealing Hearts and making a pseudo Kingdom Hearts to use Hearts not their own to 'save' themselves. None called out for help. None tried to make a change.

He NEVER attacked anyone first or out of 'honorable' combat. The battle music starts and if you let the bosses hit you, they will. Technically it is always mutually agreed to combat. Sora can never just go up and hit someone with the Keyblade. Again, a 15 year old taunting someone older and the older person has 'no emotional reasons' to strike at him. So why is he? He could have just ran away. He could have dark portaled. Heck, Saix sure dark portaled away from Riku. Riku was going to go after him and Saix sure deserved a beat down but Riku, who we know could get really angry, did not pursue him but with the most minimal of coaxing. Yes, I agree Demyx had the most potential to be turned IF Xemnas was knocked of BUT no one was providing any help towards such a goal, and Sora had to go through what he did.

I'm confused why so many people feel sorry for the Organization but not for a 15 year old boy that was forced to grow up quick, has been running around facing the fact that friends can die, people can die, he has to try to save worlds, find his friends and hope he can someday go home. He hasn't seen his family in a year, has had his mind messed with, has been used by evil etc. The Org made themselves victims by their own refusal to change their stances or even attempt to work with anyone outside of themselves. As I said, were circumstances different, some of the Org members may have been salvageable but they just weren't different. It doesn't make Sora a murderer. He -had- to do it. That is all that makes him justified. Sora is a kind hearted kid for the most part. Really, had any not been fake with him or trying to kill his friends, he wouldn't have had the stance he did, despite anyone else's information.

It sure does. lol

 

Ok fine... your hating on Saix so much. I personally do not think he is the nicest Org member, but he only reacts to what is presented to him. He only meets sora 3 times, the third times. Since it has come down to this, let me analyze the scenes one at a time.

Quoting from the very sorce you gave me:
????: Impressive.
(A cloaked figure stands beside them clapping his hands)
????: By the way, have you seen a man named Axel? I expect he's here somewhere.
Sora: Like I care.
(Sora readies his Keyblade)
????: You see, Axel's no longer acting in our best interest.
Goofy: Is he with the Organization, too?
????: Yes.
Donald: You havin' a fight?
Sora: Not a very organized Organization...
(The man points at Sora warningly)
????: Don't let your guard down. Axel will stop at nothing to turn you into a
Heartless.
Sora: Gee, thanks for looking out for us, mister. But I'm sure we can take care
of ourselves just fine.
????: Glad to hear it. Axel aside, it would break our hearts to hear something
happened to you.
Donald: Hearts? You don't have any hearts!
????: True, we don't have hearts.
(He takes off his hood, revealing his long blue hair and x-shaped scar on his
face)
Saïx: But we remember what it was like. That's what makes us special.
(A portal appears behind Saïx)
Goofy: Whaddya mean?
Saïx: We know very well how to injure a heart. Sora, you just keep on fighting
those Heartless.
Sora (to Donald): Let's jump in after him!
Donald: How come?
Sora: I'm not sure, but maybe he'll lead us to the Organization's world.
Saïx: Don't be reckless. Do you want to end up like Riku?
Sora: What!?
(Saïx bows out through the portal, which disappears)
Sora: Hey, wait! ...What did he mean, end up like Riku?

Ok, so Saix congradulated him, asked for his help with Axel, then warned him of Axel's intentions. Told him to keep fighting heartless (which Sora probably would to anyway. Told him something bad happened to Riku, and warned him that if he was reckless, he could end up like him. Where does he seem like a bad guy? He did not lie. He told enitire truths.

Now, on thier second meeting, Sora had already killed an Org member. So, here is the second convo:

After Axel and Sora are talking...

Saïx: Axel!
(Saïx appears between Axel and Sora)
Axel: Uh-oh!
(Axel starts to vanish. Sora tries to run to him, but Saïx holds out his arms
and stops him)
Saïx: We'll ensure he receives the maximum punishment.
(Axel is gone)
Sora: I don't care about any of that! Just let me into the realm of darkness,
okay!?
Saïx: If it's Kairi you're worried about, don't. We're taking very good care of
her.
Sora: Take me to her.
Saïx: Is she that important to you?
Sora: Yeah. More than anything.
Saïx: Show me how important.
(Sora thinks, then kneels on the ground)
Sora: Please.
Saïx: So, you really do care for her. In that case...the answer is no.
(Sora jumps up in anger)
Sora: You rotten...!
Saïx: Are you angry? Do you hate me? Then take that rage, and direct it at the
Heartless.
(Saïx snaps his fingers and several Armored Knight Heartless appear behind him.
He looks toward the sky)
Saïx: Pitiful Heartless, mindlessly collecting hearts. And yet they know not
the true power of what they hold. The rage of the Keyblade releases those
hearts.
(He holds up his hands)
Saïx: They gather in darkness, masterless and free...until they weave together
to make Kingdom Hearts. And when that time comes, we can truly, finally exist.
Maleficent: What in the world do you think you're prattling on about?
(Maleficent appears behind Sora, Donald, and Goofy)
Maleficent: Kingdom Hearts belongs to me! The heart of all kingdoms, the heart
of all that lives. A dominion fit to be called Kingdom Hearts must be MY
dominion!
Sora: Maleficent, no! No more Heartless!
Maleficent: I do not take orders from you!
(She raises her staff and Soldier Heartless surround Saïx)
Saïx: Fool...
(Saïx snaps his fingers and Nobodies appear and take down the Heartless. The
Nobodies then turn their attention to Sora)
Sora: Oh no!
(Maleficent appears between Sora and the Nobodies. She glows with a green aura
and spreads her arms out. A wall of flame blocks her from Sora)
Maleficent: While I keep these creatures at bay, you devise a way to vanquish
them---forever!
Sora: Maleficent...
Maleficent: Do not misunderstand me. I shall have my revenge on you yet.
(The Dusks overtake Maleficent and she is pulled down beneath their weight)
Sora: Maleficent!
Maleficent: Leave! Now!
Sora: I don't take orders from you!
(Donald grabs Sora)
Donald: Sora! C'mon!
Sora: But...what about...
(The flames die down and Maleficent is gone)
Saïx: Now then. Where did we leave off?
(Saïx snaps his fingers and the Nobodies disappear and Heartless take their
place)
Sora: Which side are you guys on anyway?
Saïx: The Heartless ally with whoever's the strongest.
(Saïx flicks out a hand toward Sora, and the Heartless attack. Sora knocks them
away, releasing hearts into the air. Saïx smiles)
Saïx: Yes, Sora! Extract more hearts!
(Saïx vanishes and the hearts are sent to Kingdom Hearts)
Sora: No! The hearts!
(They are still surrounded by Heartless. An Armored Knight slams its saber down
at Sora, who blocks with his Keyblade)
Sora: Maybe everything we've done... Maybe it was all for nothing. What am I
supposed to do if I can't use the Keyblade!?
Maleficent: Imbeciles! You can't be trusted to do anything!
Sora: Huh?

Ok, so hes more of a jerk here. But in essence, Sora should have thanked Saix for nuetralizing Malificent, and Axel. Who at this point, were both out to kill Sora.

But what does Sora do? He basically sais, "Screw you, I would rather side with Malificent and the Heartless, than you!"

If Saix was truly a jerk, who had no intention of looking out for Sora's well being, then he would have let Axel hurt Kairi, and probably turn Sora into a heartless. Then they could have used Roxas, it probably would have been easier to manipulate him than the Sora at this point.

But Sora previosly, made the point that Org members deserve to die because they have no hearts, he realized that reasoning with Sora was out of the question.

If reason doesnt work, what do you want him to do? If my life depended on it, and I was in that situation, I probably would have resorted to extortion.


The third scene is just a battle. Its obvios that it can only end with one of thier deaths, since Sora is on a death mission to eliminate the Org at this point, Saix tring to kill Sora can be chalked up to self defence. Notice Sora approaches Saix.

 

Meh, I understand that it had to be done in Sora's eyes. But maybe he should have gotten some more information on them before going around and blindly destroying them all.

Honestly I haven't got much to add to this debate because I never thought I'd actually have it.

Both of you make good points. I'm probably biased because I like the characters anyway.

I'll keep checking back though in case I have anything better and more debate-like to add like I usually do.
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I'm going to regret this, but...

By this time, Sora had already experienced meeting the Organization who kept throwing their lower-level Nobodies at him. The Org attacked Hollow Bastion. Xigbar had taunted him. Demyx stole the Olympus Stone forcing Sora and Herc to go after him, allowing the Hydra to destroy the Colliseum up above. Xaldin already attempted to make Beast into a Heartless. Axel had kidnapped Kairi. By this point, Sora's been feeling a bit screwed by these guys. So when the next mysterious guy in a black cloak appears in front of him, Sora's immediately thinking "Great. Is this guy going to be f*****g around with me too?" So his reactions not totally uncalled for.

Because by this point, Sora'll do anything to see his girlfriend again, but Saix immediately goes "Rejected!" Saix summons the Heartless to attack Sora first who are hell-bent to attack him. Maleficent shows up, summons her weaker Heartless, which Saix promptly disposes of with the lower Nobodies (instead of dealing with them himself). The Nobodies attack Sora (who's only been holding onto the Keyblade to defend himself if need be) when Maleficent saves him. Sora doesn't like either of them, but he was forced to choose between two evils. He'd rather be fighting the evil he knows than one that he doesn't know, so he's slightly concerned with Maleficent's well-being (but not too much). Saix immediately summons more Heartless again and prevents Sora from getting out of there, effectively trapping him. Sora has no choice but to defend himself, even long after Saix disappears.

And besides. It was the Organization that sent the Heartless swarm to attack Hollow Bastion in the first place. LONG before Sora defeated Demyx.

By that time, Kairi had already escaped from Axel already. Saix was the one who kidnapped her. And instead of allowing Sora to go into the Realm of Darkness (where Sora incorrectly believes Kairi is), he immediately denies Sora passage. Axel had no intention in hurting Kairi (other than the bruise on her arm from him pulling her). Saix, however, was using Kairi as bait to lure Sora to their home base.

Of course reasoning is out of the question. Sora's been getting screwed by them ever since he fought Xemnas back in KH Final Mix. If you were being physically and mentally tortured by a group of people who regarded your life as "only an experiment," wouldn't you be pissed off too? You'd probably be thinking "Who made you God?!"

No. Sora would've kept on walking if Saix hadn't decided to make his presence known. Sora didn't approach Saix. Saix was the one who appeared (all high and mighty on a ledge out of attack range) in front of Sora. And before you go into the whole "Sora's the one who invaded our castle so we have every right to defend it", remember that Sora only went to the Castle that Never Was because he wanted to stop being screwed around with. If the Organization was going to keep taking the fight to him and disappearing back into the darkness before Sora can do anything about it, Sora had no other alternative than to take the fight back to them at their home base. And remember that they still had Kairi as bait.

 

Actually, not all the events you listed happened yet. Xigbar and Sora didnt meet until after the second visit to Hallow Bastion.

Hydra didnt destroy the colesium because Herc and Sora were chasing Demyx, Herc charged off into battle to save Megara from Hades, he didnt care about Demyx.

Saix explained that Axel was acting independant of the Org, also, he didnt know Axel kidnapped Kairi at this point.

It was still pretty uncalled for. Not totally though.

Yeah, Saix pretty much pwned Sora. But you need to see the point I'm making. Sora was beyond being reasoned with. Malificent is eviler than the Org. Her goal was to dominate the worlds, and fill them with darkness, the goal of the Org was to get thier hearts back.

No, the heartless clearly respond to Malificent. Prior to Sora showing up, the heartless were killing Nobodies.

Axel had plenty of intentions of hurting her and Sora! Why else would he NEED her to turn Sora into a heartless? He was going to use the same methods Xaldin did on the second visit with Belle.

I dont truly believe the Xemnas battle in KH1 FM was a cannon battle, more of a teaser of who the next boss was going to be in KH2. Why? Xemnas was taking a nap at this time.

When was Sora being physically and mentally tortured up till this point? Ok, Hallow Bastion, he had to kill like 4 dusk. Twilight Town, I cant remember if he fought heartless, or Nobodies on the second visit... oh well, I remember it wasnt a spectacular battle. Ok, Xaldin in the Beast scandle.

Ok, thats like 3 events. Yet he sided with Malificent, who was torturing and abusing the child throughout all of KH1, and 95% of KH2. And he justified it because of the way the Organization members were born. GENOCIDE!

Gets the vid...
http://www.kh-vids.net/newplayer.php?id=3deVBYKGIRs

Actually, no... maybe your thinking of Xigbar.

Saix had his back turned, and Sora walked up to him. I'm not going to say Saix was ambushed or anything... since he did turn to face him, and drew forth his weapon.


*Blows the smoke off of his fingers*

 

Get your game on!

Wrong. This happened on the FIRST visit. Remember defending the gate? Sora getting the Hollow Bastion Honorary Membership card? Leon showing what was going on at the bailey and the Org showing themselves, taunting him? "The Keyblade. A truly marvelous weapon. If only it were in more...capable hands..." Sora opened the pathway immediately after talking with Xigbar. "You can talk all you want, but it won't change a thing."

Alright. Point taken for Herc being completely oblivious to Demyx. But Demyx DID steal the Olympus Stone. (Not sure how that's relevant at the moment, but I'll toss it out there anyways.) All to try to get Roxas back...somehow...

Right...Summoning Berserker Nobodies to attack Seifer, Rai and Fuu was COMPLETELY justified. :sideways:

If you had a choice between continuing a fight against an enemy you know or an enemy you don't know, wouldn't you choose the more familiar one? Sora doesn't necessarily side with Maleficent. Remember, "Maleficent, no! No more Heartless!"
"I don't take orders from you!"
He'd rather take out the Organization, because they're the more unknown of the two than Maleficent, who he's defeated before and can most likely beat her again later.

Yeah. Yet when Maleficent summons Heartless to attack Saix, she calls upon the weaker Soldier Heartless compared to the Armored Knight Heartless that he summons after defeating Maleficent. Not to mention, Maleficent wasn't at full strength. She wouldn't have been able to summon THAT MANY Heartless to attack Hollow Bastion. But the Organization did. And remember what Axel said. "Way to fall right into their trap." It was the Org that summoned the majority of them. Maleficent was just doing what she could with her limited power.

And would've gotten away with it too, if Kairi didn't completely own Axel when he wasn't looking. :p

You know, you've been using that piece of ammo for a while now. About Xemnas taking a nap during the time. If it wasn't Xemnas Sora was fighting, then who was it? :huh: Also remember the speech that Xemnas made when he was encountered Sora.
"He looks just like you." That means Roxas was not only already in the Organization, but the cutscene with Xigbar, Vexen and Zexion already happened (If that's what you're basing your argument on).

Remember what Sora and Namine were talking about before Sora went to sleep?

That means somewhere in his heart, Sora somehow still remembers what transpired over in Castle Oblivion. Nothing specific, but he still has that hatred against the Org already for what they did to him. It's pretty much repressed memories. He can't remember what it was, but he still has all those unconscious emotions against them. Add that to Roxas' emotions against the Org when he merged with Sora. Of course, he'd be feeling angry (but not 100% sure why).

Finally, something that you DIDN'T pay attention to. :sly: Try again, dude. I'm talking about the part after Riku rescues Kairi, but before Saix summons the Heartless swarm and Xigbar makes an appearance. After all, who summoned the Heartless after Sora in the first place?

I wouldn't celebrate just yet, cowboy. Prove me wrong on the first and last points I made. The others are still debatable.

 

This is a taunting and a ruse. He's only there to 1. confuse Sora and 2. make things harder on Axel because they want Sora to do his jorb they have assigned him. Who tells you 'non-threateningly' that they know how to 'injure' something? The whole point of that meeting was meant to confuse and irritate Sora to keep Sora doing what he 'should be'. He's not asking for Sora's help there. He's telling him 'this is the way it is' and 'you can't do anything about it' or you might end up like your friend, taken by Darkness.

Saix was not just more of a jerk here. He was downright infuriating. He is taunting Sora about having captured Kairi, makes him get on his KNEES and beg and then laughs because of course he had no intentions of returning her. He is a mental sadist and that is purely easy for most people to notice. All of the Nobodies I believe are kind of empathic, and he really finds it an enjoyment to feel other people suffering. It is also here that Saix dominates the Heartless around him and flexes his power, showing the Org did use the Heartless and could manipulate them.

Also, in this scene, Sora isn't really 'siding' with anyone. He's bedazzled and confused. Maleficent shows up and he tells her that he doesn't take orders from her. He didn't just go and say 'Hey old buddy from KH that tried to slay me and devour a lot of worlds for power!" Saix told him some powerful words that pretty much meant no matter what he does, he's working for the Org and they are stealing every single Heart he frees from every single Heartless and they don't go to where they should. His entire goal there was to break Sora and depress him. Sora did not know what to do, and Maleficent stepping in was a break by happenstance. He was very hurt there. If Riku had not pulled Sora out of there at that time (and given him some ice cream and returned him to his ship), well Sora might have just been in a horrible hurt. There is very little malicious at all about what Sora does in this scene. It's all Saix.

He did not have a care of Sora's well being. He wanted Sora working on that plan and he was manipulating him through psychological warfare. He only warned Sora about Axel to confuse him more and to make it so Sora would be stubborn against listening to Axel who well...knows what the Org is up to, doesn't he? Axel could have narced off the whole plan to Sora if Sora wouldn't have already been 'warned' about him. It's not Sora's well being. It's the Org's plan that was being saved. Also, Roxas would NOT have been easier to manipulate. He ran off and had no intentions of returning.

Where does Sora say the Org deserves to die because they have no Hearts? How about all those Hearts that deserve to perish because Xemnas and the Org are using them and not letting them go where they should? This was not 'reasoning' with Saix. Saix was totally on purpose scheming words in each scene he was in. He says it right in the first convo you have with him. He knows how to ' injure a heart'.

There is no scene where Sora just goes in and would not have accepted surrender. The only one you can use is Demyx and he had full capability of running away from the mean 15 year old taunting boy. I'm really not seeing any point at all that Saix was so 'nice and helpful' to Sora. He's protecting an 'investment' since Roxas was lost to the Org. Their 'easy way out' had fled and Axel had failed to kill Roxas so that was the way it was.

Now for Destiny Force. See, I don't just pick on those on the opposite side? I just am clearing up what I disagree with! =:)

Destiny, he's right here. Yes, Axel did say 'Way to fall into their trap" and all and he was giving some slight info here into the plan of the Organization. However, he -did- intend to take Kairi and have her as bait to use against Sora to make him turn into a Heartless again to get Roxas back. Kairi had changed him back once before and he probably assumed she could again but his plans were clear to get Roxas back. He had his own scheme and Saix was against it because Roxas had ran off and was going to be -more- difficult to control. It was to their advantage to use the "oblivious' Sora for their scheme at this point. Again, Saix and the Org had no 'caring' at all for Sora. He was a tool. Sora was a tool for Axel too, to get back what Axel wanted. They all were trying to use him.

Also, it was said 'someone' stole the Olympus Stone, but Hercules was more having to contend with saving Meg than he was at all thinking about who would do such a thing. He didn't know who took it. Sora found Demyx and confronted him on the theft etc. The Hydra, as far as I remember, was an attack done by Hades; not by the Organization. This is one of the reasons I am pretty adamant here that Demyx was pretty much the Org gopher and had 'go fetch' missions while the rest of the Org that remained were corrupting people and making those huge Heartless they had planted around. Really, Hercules was pretty oblivious to anything having to do with the Organization at all.

To wrap this up, I am still not seeing proof of any place Sora was wishing the Org would just die. There are manipulations galore on the kid by the script. He had to go the route he did because what else was he going to do? He was being used by Axel. He was being far more used by the Organization. He had to still deal with fighting Maleficent and her remnants of the Dark Council like Oogie Boogie, and also fight against Hades etc. The Org was taking advantage of and causing a lot of mayhem. Roxas was -not- going to help the Org at all, whether inside Sora or walking free. They -had- to use Sora and so they did. To keep him 'collecting Hearts' for them, they pushed buttons, and they always knew what they were doing, weakening him, making him doubt, etc. This was a mind torture game on Sora and if he was fighting to not be used, well he -should-. After all, this -is- how Riku fell too. Riku was used and manipulated or he would have been the true Keyblade bearer. The Org did not care how they got their plan to work, as long as they did. There is still no sign whatsoever of any Org member desiring a change and asking Sora for help. He was a tool to the method. There is also no point where Sora says they need to die because they don't exist.

As I've mentioned before, if Sora had been shown one iota that the Org were NOT just out using Heartless to gain their Hearts back, which he found out later the reasoning behind it, and one had actually surrendered and given up some info, then the story could have been different. I do think if things had worked out different, perhaps some of the Org might have been salvageable, but it was not going to be possible from -Sora's Side-. He was ignorant of all that was going on. The Org members themselves had to do -something- different and Saix, being their taunting man on the front, was obviously not letting that happen and Xemnas, who was very well awake, was certainly not going to let his plan crumble. If they wanted 'free' of Xemnas, no one showed this. The only one who did was Axel who had his own scheme going which got axed by Saix, and Axel later apologized, realizing it was wrong to -use- people like that to get what he wanted. Saix had no guilt at all. So how is Saix more 'righteous' than Sora when he's the main one playing mind games? How is Xaldin so innocent of what he's doing? The only one at that point who might have had a chance was Demyx and he was probably acting on memes and didn't want to be a Dusk like Axel was threatened with so he never said a thing. He's really the only one that showed any signs of just being a gopher 'yes man' but he did make his choice too.

So the debate continues. =:)

 

But also, everythign here differs depending on how you see each character.

 

And you're welcome for using me as a counter-point. :dead:

I already conceded that point. :huh: But how the heck did Axel know that it was Kairi who changed Sora back? It could've been any number of reasons...

Again, point conceded. The Org and the Dark Council both had their own plans.

And you know, the way this is turning out, I'm wondering if this thread should be moved to the Debate Corner...

 

If I couldnt tell one Org member from another, what makes you think Sora could?

*Watches video again* Oh yeah huh... good point. I laughed on the line "This is the part where I would die of laughter.


*Realizing hes being jumped again, goes back into retirement.*

 

*shrugs* I dunno. The voice?

And then Auron comes in and says "Hmph. No wonder no one wants to die." :p

Sorry, KH Ultimate Team-Up moment. :xp:

What? You're the one who started this whole thing! Although, judging by the poll results, people must agree with you, but don't want to get into the line of fire. :huh:

 

nope.. he wasn't for the most part...

good, bad, evil, ehh i donno... the way i see it is that EVIL IS A POINT OF VIEW. if you look at one way, then yes the ORG is bad, if you look at it from the other side, they just did what they needed to do. If you look at it from the POV of evil, the ORG was bad cuz they truned ppl into heartless for their own gains. they destroyed many people's lives and sometimes worlds to get what they desired... but was it really that bad?? cuz if you look at it from thier POV, then you'll see that they were just normal people (er.. incomplete-people actually) who were trying to become whole again... they were trying to become HUMAN again. and in order to do that, they did what they needed to do... (like Namine had said to Roxas when he said that the ORG was a bad group, "good bad... i donno... they are an incomplete group of people trying to be whole again" .... or @least something like that...) think of it this way.... if you were part of the ORG.. wouldn't YOU have done the same? you wouldn't want to be an incomplete person w/o any feelings now wud you? you'd go through what you need to do to have success... thats exactly what the ORG was doing.
so was sora justified? well it's a yes and no.... sora did what he needed to do to protect the world.... but he didnt have to actually KILL the ORG to do that... if the ORG had gotten what they wanted, everything woud have gone back to the way it was...
no matter how i look at this and how much i try.... i still can't find a position on it.... was the ORG bad.... was sora justified... O__0

this world (practically everyting) is based on POV and biases....

this is a very hard subject/topic to talk abt... O_o

 

Good points all around, all you are doing your best to defend your views. I agreed with those who say he was justified. Those who were lead by Xemnas did commit bad deeds after the fact, even if lead astray. A handful of them were wrong in their normal lives, doing the experiments after being ordered not to. The others, who we did not know much about, could have easily been horrid killers as humans. But, above else, along with how they detailedly planned everything, there is one thing that makes me say yes the most. What Sora did lead to Kingdom Hearts, in their way, not being completed. And that itself is good, because Xemnas' plan to create his own world was bad enough in my head. He wanted control. Also, I think, for the reason Sora did it, and how he was pushed by - not only the Org - but also the fact people were in trouble..it was right. Even if the unseen aftermathes later prove he did something unknowningly wrong. Lastly, the Org was basically playing with Sora and leading him along to do those deeds...including leading him to fightng them later.

 

My definition of evil is doing things way above what normal people would even consider.

Also, do they even deserve thier hearts back? I truely doubt it. They were the ones who chose their fate. (and don't give me any excuses about them being good and just being taken by a heartless. The only one who actually quit the org of his own will was Roxas!)

They disrupted the cycle of hearts. They were not supposed to exist, as DiZ put it.

They tried to corrupt Beast, one of Sora's friends, the only one who stuck by Sora when Donald and Goofy left him.

They turned a dragon to darkness.

They kidnapped Kairi.

I do not care what their reasoning was, as the topic in question is "was Sora justified." If all this happens because of the Org, Sora is legally entitled to hunt them down.

As for "not needing to kill them" What else to do with them? A prison? No way. Dark portals would let them escape. As for helping them become whole, apart from the innocent hearts needed to return their hearts to them, they unleashed the heartless when they were whole! Why give them the chance to do the same thing again? I doubt they would give up their plotting.

So, Sora had three choices.

1. Help the org.

The org made this pretty hard. They threw themselves at him to "test" him, then moaned when he killed them. Also, the hearts lost when making the Org whole is unforgivable.

2. Ignore the org.

The org made this impossible too. They attacked him randomly. They attacked his friends randomly.

3. Kil the org.

Seems easiest. What else to do? They are mere shells, it is too costly to return them to their former state, and they are intent on causing destruction.

 

No he would only be justified if the Nobodies and Heartless are killed =D

 

Why?

Give reasons for your answers.