Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

I didn't say the Org was evil before. Just they did bad things. Any way, yes, I had better be good and skedaddle too because I have to leave in a few hours. Sleep well! Whee.

 

Yeah, okay. Whatever you say, dude.

 

Has the topic changed?

If not, therei s little left to be discussed in this thread. 35 pages of undiluted disputes. We finally finished it off.

I have not been reading it recently, so tell me; have you come up with an argument of why the org did not antagonized Sora by appearing at Hollow Bastion and taunting/attacking him there? Is there a reason that you have found for Sora not being justified in attacking them on sight, after he saw what they did at hollow Bastion, along with all the other bad things they did? If so, please show me. If not, please show me why this thread is alive.

 

Yes, the topic has changed... Franziska von Karma high jacked my thread...

:(

Right now I asked for a motive... I'll let you guys post it... because if I do, I'll put that von Karma, "You case has been destroyed, My case is perfect in every way." slant on it.

Edit: O.O

The percentage of "Not Justified" just jumped up like a whole percent since last night!

 

Again, a motive is not necessary to say they were not justified. Their actions make it so they went too far and so whatever their motive is only alleviates sentences. It doesn't contradict the point that they still harmed many people. So, what was their motive? You don't know what it is for sure. We've already gone over the point that the Nobodies could have gone back to their 'somebodies' had they played things right, and that may even include Xehanort, whom Riku defeated. So it is obvious that highjacking and making a pseudo Kingdom Hearts was to make them in the state they were in more powerful and complete. They did buck the system and caused a lot of problems. Do you think the lesser Nobodies were going to be better off from it?

So, we don't really know their full motive yet and have to wait for 358/2 Days and hope the secret is in there. If you have some idea of their motive, put it out there. It could be they were trying to maybe prepare for the secret boss in Coded. It could be that Xemnas and the Org were doing something else. I don't see how we can know till we see it. Had they just gone out and done what they should have done and helped with the Heartless problem, you know they would have been returned as they were supposed to be. So their motive must be different.

 

I'm loving the Von Karma appearence XD Where'd you get those sprites from?

Anyways...if we're still talking about the topic of killing Org XIII, I say NO, and it's been pissing me off for a long time now... >.> He just kills them all, despite how pathetic their deaths are *coughdemyxcough* and he only felt a little remorse for two. One was Axel, and that's cuz his story was just so sad, and even though the sympathy was minor and didn't last long. The other was after Saix, where Sora looks all sad and (riku?) asks "What's wrong, Sora?" And Sora looks even sadder, for a second I think he's going to have second thoughts about killing the Org, but instead says "Why're they all calling me Roxas, dammit?!"

*bangs head against desk*

So close....so close.... -_- Org XIII was my favorite bad group, yet there was no sympathy towards them in the game. That's the only thing that bugged me in the game, besides of course the Atlantis lv : P

Now back to Von Karma appearences.

 

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Now, now, Repliku, you are the ones who's making the accusation that they did it mearly for scientific experimentation. I do believe that that evidence condemns the one whos initiated the project. Only one of the Organization members initially had the desire for expiramentation, and that one was not even a key player in the whole scenario. This could only mean one thing....

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Responsibility falls unto Ansem the Wise!

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Very well, you shall continue your testimony.

And only a foolish fool would fail to know the foolish website known as the court-records.net is the number 1 source of Ace Attorney related material. Only a foolish king of fools from the land of foolerton would post images from thier without thier own image hosting site like photobucket.com

 

Sometimes I think you don't read what I type out fully, ICSP. You have missed me saying I don't think the Org was 'evil'. And this is just another point. And it sure is easier to talk to you instead of a character in a discussion area. =:/ I have said repeatedly that the reason in entirety is unclear and that one of the motives was what it was, but that 358/2 Days would probably explain why the Org was doing unorthodox methods to undo their situation when it was not necessary and they should probably know it. There is an underlying theme to it which just isn't exposed yet.

 

Okay, fine. Their motive was to get their hearts back, happy?

Now, Sora experienced all sorts of crap like the hollow bastion taunting, the corruption of beast, the theft of the olympus stone, and pretty much everything on first world visits before he finally struck back, killing Demyx. The org did not figure out that Sora did not like them attacking and messing up worlds, so they kept doing it, so Sora kept slaughtering them.

The reason Sora kept attacking in the world that never was was because he was fed up with being attacked. He was fed up with his friends being messed with. He is a protector of the worlds, his friends, and himself. The org is violating every single one of these. What's more; they attacked first!

I would not place any basis on the pole. At all. People take one look and see Sora killing off their favourite member. "OMG! He killed Demyx/Xaldin/Saix/Xemnas/Luxord/Kenny! He was my favourite character! 50RA MU57 d13!

 

Fine... Edgey and Franziska go to your room!

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Ok... your speaking to ICSP now. I just did that for fun.

I know... but I wrote that at 1am... so I was a little out of it.

But yeah... you do seem to harbor a lot of resentment towards Org XIII. Especially the way you portray Demyx and Luxord, who were followers at worst.

Also, they have already said what I believe to be a cannonized motive. I'm talking it over, to see if I can get more evidence for it. But I'm pretty sure its cannon. Also, I was about to post it here... but I think my best evidence is saved for court.

I'd hate to be a jerk like that, but I'm not even sure if I've found something yet, so if I post it prematurly, I'll just end up looking like an idiot.

I'm talking about before that. Why they mass produced heartless when they were still humans.

 

That's the problem right there. I'm not a fanboy of any of the characters. I can judge from a point of view that says it's a shame things had to happen, but I don't care like 'ZOMG my favorist character died!'. No one even knows if the Org members that Sora killed didn't go back to their somebodies. Axel did. Maybe others did too if Sora had slain the Heartless or others had prior. This is the point why it comes down to the Org didn't just want THEIR hearts back. They had other people's as well and if they had just fought Heartless and all they could have gone to their Somebodies. It seems odd they chose to not do this method but instead erect a false Kingdom Hearts, steal Hearts of droves of people and really, tie up the whole system. If Nobodies that died didn't get their Hearts back etc...it's the Org's fault. They were changing the system to fit their needs and had they done it the way it was supposed to be, those Nobodies would go back to their somebodies.

So in the end we don't know fully what the Org was up to but it is clear that even Org members didn't exactly agree with it 100%. The motive is still unclear as to the whole purpose of the Organization and it is going to be so unless it is exposed in 358/2 Days. People that keep blaming Sora for the demise of the Org aren't getting the nuances of what was all going on or Nomura's own words as to what happens to Nobodies and Heartless. Sora again is a 15 year old boy, stuck for a year because of the mind crap that Marluxia forced Namine to do, and also Roxas seemed pretty annoyed with the Org. If he was angry, he had a right to be. They messed with him and also messed with a ton of other people to get what they wanted. If the reason for it has more merit than 'we want our hearts back' then fine, it still doesn't mean Sora acted brashly. It means they didn't have the balls to TELL HIM and instead were manipulating him, using him, forcing him to do their bidding, and attacking him. He's a 15 year old kid. They were how old and figured they could talk down to him and treat him like trash, but felt they needed the Keyblade wielder.

I'm not a real Sora fan either. I find the character to be overly naive and he misses certain things that though I can laugh at, it makes him more childish in ways. However, THEY used his naivety to their advantage and kept him clueless. When he finally stands up and says it has to stop, people get mad at him. He's so bad. I like the Org. I like Sora. Some of the Org I liked better than I liked Sora. However, the fanboy/fangirl decisions really do just seem to be emotional and not regarding the actual story. Demyx is one of my favorite Org characters, but what happened could have been averted too. The facts are there that show the Org could have done things differently and they chose to instead mess with Sora and screw him up as well as many others and DiZ says it right when he says you cannot control the way a Heart works and he was a fool. The Org messed with many peoples' Hearts to include Sora's and they screwed up. If their goal was so wholesome, why didn't they just approach Sora and speak with him? This is what you cannot prove, ICSP. Sora made attempts to talk to them even at the end with Xemnas. He TRIED to understand Saix who was playing emotional games with Sora to get him off balance. He tried to get Axel who was confusing. He did feel bad and didn't get the whole Roxas deal and none bothered to explain that either, did they? No one told him crap and if they did, they were droll and sarcastic about it and it was much too late.

So for the last time..it's not hard to feel sympathetic to those who just wanted their hearts back. Had they just talked to him, Sora would have helped them and anyone who actually KNOWS the character Sora is, knows that clearly. It's so easy to see. It's not that the Org is 'evil'. It's the methods they used. That they do owe explanations for. A motive for it, yes, it would be nice too. However, I seriously doubt they are going to be coming out smelling like roses like fans of the Org seem to think. I'm not saying they will come out being evil villains either, but they just aren't going to be as innocent as you argue. So until 358/2 Days comes out, there's nothing to go off of at all that shows Sora was so wrong and the Org was so right.

15 year old boy vs all the Org. Who's the victim?

 

One... I didn't and still don't like Demyx. But the dude got murdered.

I didn't like Saix until we got into this debate, and I realized he was not as evil as Sora viewed him. I never like Xemnas, until recently, when I found out what I believe he was plotting.

Also, I do believe I can prove what they were really up to, I just need more conclusive evidence. All I got is quotes and circumstancial evidence, so I don't want my idea to be picked apart yet. I'd rather wait to I have it solid.

Also, Roxas was angry and hateful with everyone. Look at his reaction to Axel, DiZ, Riku, and even Hayner and Siefer. So his bitterness towards the Org could have been the way Xemnas said hi to him that morning.

Also, his motivation for leaving was not hatred for the Org itself, but the fact that he didn't understand the keyblade. I believe the line "I remember everything now, the true..." had a lot to do with it.

Also, victims is usually the one who comes out worse in the end. Sora survived unharmed.


Goodnight, its late and I work the early shift tomorow.

 

I like Demyx, but he wasn't murdered. He fully entered that fight and had the choice to walk away. If you don't do anything when the battle starts, he's still out to kick your ass cuz of Sora's taunt. Get over it already. There's no proof he was murdered at all.

As for Saix, he was the worst one in the game taunting Sora all along and confusing him on purpose. I actually think the character was cool, but anyone with two eyes can see he was out to mess Sora up in the head from the moment he showed up. There is -nothing- to suggest otherwise.

Yes, Roxas was very angry at everyone and as much as people love him, he would have never tolerated what Sora did. He would have attacked from the very beginning and been relentless. Sora put up with a lot of crap and still tried to talk to Xemnas at the very end. I find it ironic that people do think Roxas is so much better yet they can come here and scream about how Sora murdered the Org. Roxas wouldn't have dealt with what Sora did without being much more hostile. It was in his nature to do so. Just because he walked away didn't mean a thing. Had any come to confront him, it would have been a fight. Heck, they tried to get Axel to murder Roxas and wouldn't go do it themselves. I wonder why. lol. Maybe because he was the 2nd most powerful in the group and when he was determined, they knew he would wipe them out? Going with Sora at this point was a much better option. He wasn't as violent. This isn't to say again, that I hate Roxas. So don't go twisting that too. :/

Sora didn't come out of it unharmed. He had the emotional burden to carry that they didn't. He's just lucky he's a resilient youth that tries to get over stuff quickly. Just because he endured didn't mean he did not have to change a lot and grow up some. It's because of them and Xehanort's Heartless that he went through so much and he had a year taken from his life, had to go about and fight threats etc and save a lot of people, go through a lot of confusion and watch his friends go through hell too. He endured but it doesn't mean that it was right what they did by any means. Prove to me they didn't use him, ICSP. Prove to me that they talked to him and treated him as an equal. They considered him weak all along and thus able to manipulate easily. That is the point. You show me how their METHOD was justified in what they did and you are good to go. If you can't, then that's where the problem comes in.

 

I would charge in and attempt to explain my opinion in Sora's favour, but the intense awesome radiating from the posts here are melting my brain.

 

You aren't alone. lol
My brain melted a while ago. I'm not sure why I keep going. It's an addiction and conviction or something.

 

It's quite simple. Murder/manslaughter is a crime. Sora killed most of the orgnization, so he broke the law. So no, he wasn't justified in killing them. It wasn't even self-protection, cuz technically he could have landed a couple of combos on them and then runaway. Of course the game didn't allow this but I don't think that counts... But the point was that killing someone is never justified, legally or ethically.

 

i beleive everybody in kingdom hearts is a murderer,expect for stich,he is just so cute hahah,know but for real no,sora was not justifed in killing the organization and select others.

 

Murder is justifiable. The org manipulated him. That attacked him with nobodies and heartless. They kidnapped his friends.

Yes, he could land a hit and run, but where would that leave him? It would leave him with a group of people attacking his friends and a girlfriend imprisoned in the castle.

Sora is a friendly guy. He does not always wack stuff around. (Unless I'm playing...) He took all the first world crap from the org, the deal with Beast, the Hollow Bastion attack, the Roxas business and the random nobodies attacking him at the train station. He did not react then, merely went along with it. Perhaps the org would get the idea; Sora did not like it. So he eventually taunted Demyx for a bit. Boo-hoo. Demyx attacked Sora, (Which he had to be ordered by Xemnas to do) and Sora finally lost it, and killed Demyx. He then shouted out a warning, a deterrant to the rest of the org. They still attacked him.

They portrayed themselves as bad guys to Sora. Sora believed them, and killed them for it.

It was not nice, but it was a war, it was needed. What should Sora have done differently? What could Sora have done differently?

 

I don't get why all people who don't think that he's justified are portraying Sora as a cold-blooded murderer when really Riku had to help him tie his shoes until he was ten. His only interactions with the Organization before he 'murdered' Demyx was a whole lot of 'Seen anyone in a black coat?' and Hollow Bastion 1, where the Org laughed in his face. Then Xigbar showed up for the sole purpose of pissing him off. Back then Sora was still trying to talk to them. By the time he met Demyx the second time he'd wised up to their sceme and called Demyx's bluff. I quote, "You're Nobodies, you don't even exist!"
"Silence, traitor!" And then Demyx instigates the battle himself by summoning his weapon. Once 'poor Demy' is dead Sora issues a warning to the rest of the Organization.
Some people used Saix's visit to Twilight Town as evidence because he's 'warning' Sora about Axel. Have we forgotten that Axel showed up at Hollow Bastion for the sole purpose of talking to Sora, the one thing Organization XIII never tried? Plus, Saix made Sora kneel. Besides, in an FM+ scene set after the Twilight Town visit Saix expressedly states that he was trying to confuse Sora. Later, in The World That Never Was, Saix shows up at the top of the castle and is overjoyed (as much as he can express it) that he can stop playing games and fight Sora.
Sora and Riku finally and directly confront Xemnas' actions before his first battle, a scene both parties have conveniently forgotten;
Xemnas: "We, who were shunned by both light and dark, and teeter on the edge of nothing?"
Riku: "That's simple. You mess up our worlds."
Xemnas: "But what other choice might we have had?"
Sora: "Just give it a rest. You're Nobodies, you don't even exist. You're not sad about anything!"
Xemnas: "Hahahahaha. Very good, you don't miss a thing. I cannot feel... sorrow. No matter what misery befalls the worlds."

You see? The Organization were NOT justified because they simply didn't care. Nomura has stated that there was another way, but they chose the easy way out and despite having full cognitive function turned a blind eye towards the suffering they were causing. And don't get me started on Xaldin.

 

I think he was justified because the Org manipulated him True he may have been rude with Demyx but as for the rest (excluding Axel who sacraficed himself and Roxas who didn't die)they were sadists who deserved what they got.