Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

Dude, they harmed more people than just a few. Sora had to fight as it was and had they been honest there wouldn't have been a trolley, would there have been? That is the point. They first off put themselves in the position, so then you have 6 members who started up the trolley gong for thousands of people...then they hop out, take charge of those people after they are wounded, and then the trolley keeps going on into another bunch of people who are oblivious to what is going on. Your analysis fails here because the top members of the Org did this to themselves and yet also expected to run the show and use a pseudo Kingdom Hearts and the Keyblade wielders to get what they wanted. They weren't out to just 'help' people. They were out to help themselves. They already had put all those Nobodies there in the first place. It's not like they cared but for their own motivations. Marluxia didn't care either. He just wanted the power. He was more a menace than Xemnas was.

In the end, the Org top 6 started the trolley well before they were going and making new Heartless, causing turmoil and forcing Sora to do their will. Sora would have never been involved had they not forced him into it. Just because a few may die for the many, or whatever, doesn't mean if they don't EXPLAIN themselves, they are any more right.

 

When did Organization XIII claim responsibility for the trolly?

You know the trolly is the heartless right? There is always heartless, as long as there is darkness within ones hearts.

Also, you do realize that there were heartless before Org XIII right?

 

You do realize that the 6 responsible are Xehanort (Xemnas) and the top other 5 apprentices to Ansem the Wise. They brought the Heartless there. Xehanort opened the door to Radiant Gardens' Heart and let the Heartless take the world. He also is the one who kidnapped Kairi and sent her out to find the Keyblade Master. They brought the Heartless there. They also reportedly experimented on individuals in the lower depths of the castle which Ansem the Wise tried to stop. Then they threw themselves into Darkness. Ansem couldn't save his world and also ended up going to Darkness, hence becoming DiZ. It's not like DiZ had NO reason for revenge, you know.

Now, since Xehanort and his buddies let through the Heartless, they also made a machine which could mass produce various Heartless called Emblem Heartless. These were of all sorts of shapes etc but with Xehanort's Heartless emblem on them, which seems to be a symbol similar to the Knight symbol that Terra wears, just skewed. So, yes, they did bring about the Heartless. When Ansem tried to stop them, Xehanort sent all of the Heartless out to various worlds through innerspace. Not Maleficent. Xehanort.

So, now you have Xemnas and the top 5 other Org members with this past behind them. DiZ also has to live with it and is bent on revenge when he realizes he can do nothing for his world and his name was stolen by his beloved pupil.

The Heartless in Darkness are not bad. The Heartless on worlds with life, that is bad. Xehanort pulled them there so the Org again, since Xemnas does know what he had done and has done -nothing- to fix that, is wrong. Sora had to fix his mistake, fight Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless) and deal with the Organization coup at Castle Oblivion. Xemnas also faced Sora in a surprise test in KH at the end. Now, there is the point I am making. They kicked all of this off and Xemnas knew all he did and still claims the power of Darkness is superior to DiZ and he knows everything and surpasses the old man. He's not repentant at all.

So he started the trolley. The Heartless being everywhere was spurned on by him and Maleficent showed up after and decided to manipulate some of them. Xehanort's Heartless does his thing and takes over Riku, which again, Xemnas obviously didn't care about. The Org were using Heartless and these were harming and making more Heartless. In the end, the Org just never stopped causing problems, whether the goals switched or not. Sora acted as he could. He wasn't perfect but he's a 15 year old boy versus all of these people who are against him and forcing him and others to do things against their wills with no explanation.

P.S. Here we go again. :)

 

Fine... I'll argue in a character form then... just to spice it up.

\​

Tsk... tsk... tsk... You've fallen right into my trap.

You see, Ansem and Xehanort discovered the heartless. They didn't create them.

Exibit A:
-Ansem's Report 1-
Much of my life has been dedicated to pursuit of knowledge. That knowledge has guarded this world well. Not a soul doubts that. I am blessed with people's smiles and respect.

But though I am called a sage, there are things I do not understand. I believe darkness sleeps in every heart, no matter how pure. Given the chance, the smallest drop can spread and swallow the heart. I have witnessed it many times.

Darkness...
Darkness of the heart.

How is it born? How does it come to affect us so? As ruler of this world, I must find the answers.

I must find them before the world is lost to those taken by the darkness.

This is the infamous 0 Report (Japanese version its called Report 0)... it is truly writen by Ansem the Wise.

Notice the phrase, "I must find them before the world is lost to those taken by the darkness." This would imply that heartless already lived at this point in time. This was written while Ansem the wise was still the Ruler of Hallow Bastion, aka, Radiant Garden. And at this point, heartless already existed there.

Now, the second entry refers to the creation of the emblem heartless. Althought, the evidence clearly shows that the actual heartless already existed. There are no doubts about that.

 

Okay, you are missing the point. Xehanort BROUGHT the Heartless to Radiant Gardens. In Darkness, where they are from, they were not a harm to the system because that's where they belong. Eating things and devouring stuff in Darkness isn't bad because that is what Darkness does. Heartless (Pureblood any way) are manifestations OF Darkness. So Xehanort pulling them to Radiant Gardens and experimenting as he describes in the Ansem Reports is what transpired. Yes, they existed prior but no, they were not a problem before Xehanort did what he did.

So in the end, Xehanort and the other 5 apprentices are still responsible for unleashing the Heartless, making Emblem Heartless and scattering them throughout interspace. Also, Xehanort IS the one who watched a Heartless lead him to a door and then he opened it, which was the door to Radiant Gardens. So, really, are you now trying to say that just because the Heartless existed prior and weren't a problem that Xehanort/Xemnas is not responsible for the incident when clearly his own reports through the identity of Ansem shows it is the case?

 

Show me evidence that darkness was in check before KH!

Malificent existed! So did the heartless!

Your grasping straws Mr. Repliku! Every charcter in the game said that Heartless have always, and will always exist!

 

There is -nothing- that says the Heartless were doing damage prior to Xehanort in the mass way they turned up. Again, I didn't say the Heartless and Darkness didn't exist. I said they weren't a problem so bad as with what Xehanort and the other 5 initiated. Let's look at the Ansem Reports. Every single Heartless though that is an Emblem Heartless is derived from originally Xehanort's machine. There were more of them even than the regular pureblood Heartless like Shadows and Neo Shadows, Darkballs etc.

Now, here's Xehanort writing about Darkness...

Oops, here we go showing that Xehanort's little experiments of caused whoever he was experimenting on ...the heart to collapse. No treatment would cure it and he locked up those he had experimented on and came back to find...Pureblood Heartless. Shadows. Obviously he has no clue what they are so it's also obvious to ascertain that while Heartless existed, they did not come over out of Darkness unless motivated and it is Xehanort and his apprentice friends who brought them to Radiant Gardens.

So much are they new to this realm outside of Darkness he names them Heartless as he has never seen them before.

And he keeps giving them more people to make more Heartless with and they are multiplying as he continues to examine them.

And there's Xehanort opening the door to the world of Radiant Gardens after following the Heartless to it. Now, he ended up basically opening the world to other worlds and interspace which is why King Mickey visits and also Gummi Blocks were what was falling from the sky there.

So basically he's learning here they want the Heart of worlds as well as the Hearts of people to thrive on as an instinctive drive. #7 Just describes Gummi Blocks and that he feels that they are all prisoners to the world.

And here's him working on Emblem Heartless and marking them is putting his red symbol on them all he created with his machine.

King Mickey tells him and Ansem the Wise about the Keyblade and other worlds...soooo...

So here he sends off Kairi hoping she will find the Keyblade wielder so that he doesn't get in his way. It also states that the world's wall is collapsing with the appearance of the Heartless.

So the point is the Heartless and Darkness existed prior but not in this way that Xehanort brought them about with his 5 other assistants, tormenting people, then the Shadows appeared...he took these and experimented on them, making a machine you can see in KH at the Worlds End, and these he marked, sending them out. The Nobodies also made Heartless bearing the same symbols such as the Heartless dragon, the Heartless in Beast's Castle, and the one Luxord made in Port Royal at least.

 

​

Thats quite a bit of evidence Mr. Riku Replica. I just have one question. Is the topic of the current arguement "Was Organization XIII justified in thier manipulation and expantion of the heartless?"

 

hmm i dont really know. he didnt really do the right thing i suppose. if he hadnt been so rash he wouldnt have caused all this bad crap. *sniff* and demyx would still be alive. but isuppose that would have made the game boring.

 

The Prosecution thanks you for your testimony.

 

The point is that the top Org members created the problem in the first place of the Heartless being out of control and manifesting themselves. Maleficent stepped in but this was after Xehanort had unleashed the Heartless into interspace and also gave her a way to the world by unlocking that world to allow outsiders. Ansem the Wise had also had to abandon things and Maleficent stepped in for the coup de grace. She however decided to use the Heartless after for her own personal gain because they were there and numerous. She had Darkness in her own Heart so it was easy for her to have connection with the odd creatures and as Saix said, if your will is powerful enough you can control them, when he had his bid for power versus her over who had control over what. Maleficent wasn't as cool as she assumed she was and was outclassed by the Org.

Are the Org responsible for it, yes. Xemnas totally knew Ansem the Wise and also still called him a fool and that he was right. He had no caring or remorse for unleashing the Heartless and also causing all the harm he had. They cannot be 'justified' with their actions because of HOW they went about them. They still are responsible for the actions the apprentices and Xehanort did before as somebodies too. They all remember it and tortured live people, and in bringing the Heartless there, they also created the Nobodies and then assumed control over them to use as they saw fit. Note, they also captured the other members of the Org too.

However, does it mean that they were not trying to do something to defend against something worse once they became Nobodies? This I do not know yet and no one does but Nomura. The point is though that you keep saying it's just a few people that suffered but you are mistaken. Millions suffered for it. Every Nobody there is caused by the spread of Heartless Xehanort initiated and the Heartless that continue to move about are also Xemnas's and the Org's responsibility. They became Maleficent's as well when she decided to get her grubby paws in there, but it was clear she was not as powerful or nearly the threat that the Org were.

Now, despite having said this, I still do empathize with the Org. Especially ones like Axel or Demyx who seemed to have just been sucked in to the scenario. I even feel sympathy for the upper members of the Org because some of them may just have not realized how bad things would become or how it feels to lose something till it's gone. So no, I am absolutely not an Org hater. I am also not saying they were 'evil' but they did do some pretty bad things and when you say it's just a few people...I have to disagree with you. It was a lot of people that suffered and still will because even with the Nobodies temporarily dealt with, so long as there are Heartless, the Nobodies will probably also continue to go on. I'm sure if the Nobodies knew of how they were created and had actual feelings, they wouldn't have been so complacent.

 

Mr. Riku Replica, in order to prove something happened, you need three key pieces to solve any puzzle.

First, you need evidence that something happened. We'll let the emblem heartless suffice for that.

You also need an oportunity, the fact that they were scientist studying both hearts and darkness gives them the opportunity...

The last piece to the puzzle is simple. You need a motive.

Tell me, what was Organization XIII's motive?

No one has discussed the reason why Organization XIII began thier experiments. Now is your chance to theorize...

 

*sigh* You guys just won't let this go, will you...

I'm only here to say one thing and one thing only.

There are going to be a bunch of people that will automatically go "No, he wasn't justified cause my favorite Org character died" or "Yes, he was justified because Sora did what he had to do and oh I'm a fanboy/girl of him as well." And they'll ONLY say this because absolutely NOBODY wants to go back through all these pages and read any arguments that would automatically prove their statement wrong. There's how many pages of evidence and arguments brought up and there will STILL be people that come in to revive this worn-out, beaten, moth-eaten thread because they only have a simple, biased opinion with no evidence to back it up and don't want to be bothered about how their reasonable opinion got shot down back on Page 6.

I'm not getting back in this argument again because this has gone on far too long and is a complete waste of time. I'd rather go to the "Organization goes to Court" RP and bring out the arguments there, because as far as this thread is concerned, Sora WAS justified, we proved this so many pages back and you even admitted it and I see all of the pointless counters as desperate attempts to stall until 358/2 comes out.

And as we stated before, if the question was "Was Organization XIII Justified?" then I'd see some point to the debate. But, this thread has been answered, should've been locked and will continue to keep going as long as you keep advertising it in every thread you post in. You might as well just stick it in your signature if you want it to live so much.

Or you could've done the sensible thing and created a brand new thread and asked the other question instead of stalling.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to vent my frustration by getting the bailiff to start smacking around some people and giving them atomic wedgies...

 

NO! Not atomic wedgies!
​

Yeah, DF's got a point, although, I didn't feel as stong about Org XIII when I started this thread as I do now.

The more evidence I went through, the more I got the idea that Nomura tried to make them appear just bad enough for Sora to destroy them, but just good enough for there to be a chance that they were really the good guys. I think 358/2 will be a realization of that fact. Goodnight. I'll finish this tommorow.

 

The point is you don't need a motive to say whether they are Justified or not. You need a motive to decide their fate after to judge the severity of the crimes. If a motive can be supplied that is more than just a selfish basis, then truly they won't look as bad, will they? However, will they still have done horrible things to a great many people? Yes. So obviously something had to be done. Sora wasn't hasty. They were. The whole ideal of experimenting was foolish. The moves to continue doing so and taking over the Nobodies, doing their plans to use Roxas and then switching to Sora were rotten. Sora is a 15 year old kid. You keep saying 'poor Organization' but really why isn't it 'Poor Sora' because he was the one boned, dragged in to this crap and had to deal with crimes from 10 years prior, as did Riku and King Mickey. One 15 year old kid wasn't the bully of the big bad ass Organization.

The evidence of the events themselves is more than enough to say they were not justified. It is now the actual complete motive we wait for to judge how much sympathy, lenience and tolerance any Judge etc would have for them. They did wrong. Axel knew that. Namine knew that. Roxas knew that. It doesn't make them evil, but it surely did not make them good either. We have dictator rulers that used excuses to kill off millions of people and people don't consider them good guys either. Some did just want their Hearts back. Others wanted more and that is clearly obvious. For what reason...that's what we are waiting for.

And DF, you just rux. I don't mind -this- thread being here but I do get annoyed when it goes across to every other thread about Sora.

 

The game actually does say thier motive for starting the initial experiments. It is hardly selfish. In fact, the product of their experiments is closer than you think, Mr. Riku Replica.

 

Okay, so millions of people suffered because they wanted to explore Darkness in people's Hearts? Come on, ICSP. Mengele wanted to test out how twins were so similar and did horrible experiments on them. Is he justified? After all, we ended up with more genetic evidence about twins and also some medicines and learned you shouldn't sew up two people together cuz it doesn't work. Ishi did experiments to find out how frostbite effected people on live people and this was justified? He froze people's limbs and broke them off in front of them. This was to help make gear for soldiers supposedly and to defend against freezing temperatures. I'm having trouble here seeing how the Org is so right.

 

​

You think you can get away with such flimsey reasoning Mr. Riku Replica?

...


...

Drat its almost 2 am... its way past the time for my evening tea...

(Seriously, there is a canonized reason they started their experiments... you won't like saying it it makes them look REALLLY GOOD!)

 

To object, you must supply proper evidence to counter that claim. :p And yes, you are evil. The Org isn't. You are. I have so many tests for school and essay reports etc...and you keep making me stay up so late. It's almost 5 am here. lol BAD ICSP. NO DONUT.

 

Did I actually read that... I must be dilusional... Repliku would never say the Org isn't evil.

I'll present my evidence tomorow...

Goodnight...