Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

"Mess with the best, lose like the rest..."

Hmm...Pika_Power needs help. You want me, dude? You've got it!

*FULL SYNCHRO!*​

"There's no point in talking when the enemy resorts to violence. You must counter that through force yourself or negotiate with the willingness to use force as backup. That's the way of the world."

And that would be your downfall right there. Go WAAAAAY back to Twilight Town when Sora first woke up. Nobodies attacked him. He didn't know who they were, but he was getting his butt kicked. He had to be saved by Mickey. By this time, Sora's probably feeling slightly miffed that he had to be saved. He's even more ticked because this mysterious enemy decided to get up in his face and beat the crap out of him. He's also confused as he just woke up in an unknown place and doesn't know what to think. He just got attacked by creatures in white jumpsuits. Was he just supposed to shrug it off? Because if your answer's yes, then you're being naive.

Fast-forward to Hollow Bastion. The Bailey meeting. This is where the quote comes in. The Org attacked them first. Using the argument of them testing Sora's power is completely irrelevant now. They resorted to violence. If they had wanted to talk, they should've done it. But they didn't. And since they resorted to violence, Sora had no choice but to counter through force himself. What was he going to do, just let Leon fight them by himself? Walk away and hope for the best? Everything else that happens afterwards doesn't matter. All the opportunities there is to talk can be thrown out the window. It doesn't matter if they were only testing his power or not. It doesn't matter whether those Dusks and Creepers in front of the station were under the Org's control or not. Their intentions don't matter, but their actions do. They attacked first. Sora had to counter by fighting back. They attacked him twice before he willingly attacks even once.

I dare you to say otherwise using the timeframe between Sora waking up and the first encounter at the Bailey. Take DiZ, Roxas and everyone else that didn't show up in that timeframe out of the picture. This is about Sora, Mickey and mysterious guys in black hooded cloaks.

Your next argument will probably be that Sora's a stupid teenager that attacks anything he wants with his Keyblade. He's mindless, gullible and an idiot. If that were true, then he's not responsible for his own actions. Heartless destroy worlds. They're mindless and react on instinct. Sora knew he had to destroy them. Nobodies could think, act and plot. Fighting creatures with nothing but instinct is one thing. But ones who can do exactly what Heartless do and actually know what they're doing is even more dangerous. Yen Sid gives Sora the facts about Nobodies. However, Sora had just gotten attacked by them and now know that they're the other half of Heartless with willpower. Because of what happened to him in Twilight Town, and his experience with Heartless, he now generalizes the entire Nobody group as the bad guys. Yes, because of what happened he generalizes all of the Nobodies into the opposition. Don't use the "so you agree that Sora's an idiot" argument here. I'm not done yet.

NOT ONCE during that timeframe did the Organization give Sora a reason to trust them. Again, he was attacked twice before even setting foot outside of Hollow Bastion. And they taunted him by disappearing before he could do anything about it. Xigbar taunted him again immediately afterward. It doesn't matter if you can't tell who's who under the cloak or not. What's important is how they acted. They didn't tell him squat and used their powers to disappear back to their Council table. And don't give me the "If they wanted to attack outright they would've, but they didn't" argument. NOT ONCE during that timeframe did they disprove Sora's point of view in the matter.

Again, everything else that happens afterwards is irrelevant. So, unless you can show me an event after Sora woke up (because his memories were restored up to the point of standing outside of Castle Oblivion (and of course he forgot his magic and abilities, because it'd be a pretty lame game if he started off with all of his powers intact)) and before Sora left Hollow Bastion for the first time that actually supports why he should've trusted the Organization in the first place, all the past arguments are completely unsubstantial.

Of course, we both know how you work already. Your counter will probably have something to do with "poor Demyx" or "Xaldin intended to return Beast after he was done with him" or "Saix and Xigbar were saving Sora." News flash, they didn't exactly make things any easier with their "Smoke, smoke, mirror, mirror" crap. Quit beating around the bush and spit it out instead of showing off how much more power you have than a kid with an oversized key has. And if you're going to counter with "Well, Sora should've asked them when they had the opportunity..." Sorry, that's not going to fly this time. I stated above that the moment they resorted to violence, Sora had no choice but to counter with force himself. They weren't in the mood to talk, so why should Sora have been?

Your next counter will probably be the ends justify the means. In order to save the greater good, the Organization had to commit evil. (But since you're not going to use "evil", I'm going to say "inconvenient acts.") However, the world isn't that simple. You can't save the world just like that. It's true that at the end of the plan, there was a POSSIBILITY that more people could be saved by this compared to doing nothing at all. But that's not right. Even if the Org had a great cause, using force to carry out their plan doesn't justify them. There's always a better way. (I don't want to hear you say "So do you have a better suggestion?" because neither of us know how the full transformation thing works.) They weren't able to think of an alternate solution and they're supposedly "smarter" than Sora. Most of them were scientists for crying out loud! You'd think that with all that brain power (since they still have their upper brain functions) they'd have figured out something else that didn't involve sending out (more) Heartless to numerous worlds. But they didn't. They only saw one way of doing something and were too stubborn to look at it from another angle.

Counter-point: So that means Sora should've found another way that didn't involve using the Keyblade or that would mean Sora wasn't right in attacking the Org because they were trying to help him do what he would do anyway. Wrong. Sora doesn't wield that Keyblade because he wants to. He does it because he HAS to. The Keyblade chose him and he can't change that fact. Instead of blaming Sora, you should blame the Keyblade for putting him in this position in the first place. He never asked for this fight. All he wanted was to go home, get into skirmishes with Riku, make out with Kairi and live his life. Yes, Sora could've chosen to skip every world and quest that involved someone in trouble, but if he did, his conscience would make him dread with regret. Or are you going to say that Sora was stupid in trying to help out people who didn't have the necessary power to overthrow the unjust?

For support, I'm going to let the infinite wisdom of Repliku speak for itself:

Counter-point: The Organization weren't unjust, so Sora had no good reason to attack them. I'm going to point out again, they attacked him first. TWICE. They resorted to violence, and Sora had no choice but to counter that with his own force. They didn't want to talk and they didn't give him any reason to trust them. Don't say it's Sora's fault for not asking, because the time for talking was over and done with as soon as they came in with the first blow.

And I'm going to say this again. The Organization is not necessarily evil. I'll give you that much. However, that doesn't necessarily mean they're the good guys either. You've already said that there is no real definition between good and evil. If that's the case, then neither side is innocent. Trying to claim one is pure one way only is like saying Riku was pure darkness and he should've faded away from Zexion's illusion of light. Your counter to this will probably be some stuff from Chain of Memories that has nothing to do with Sora being justified (Riku's story, DiZ or some other crap). So, I'm just going to cut you off and say again, the Organization IS NOT PURE EVIL. But, they ARE NOT PURE GOOD either. Same with Sora. In his case, though, he wouldn't be a bearer of light if he wasn't over halfway good. And your counter to that last statement will probably have something to do with Riku, DiZ or some other irrelevant argument pertaining to levels of light and darkness. I'll cut you off again and say that this is about justifying Sora's actions against the Organization. Chain of Memories is completely redundant to this since what happened there has no change on how Sora views the Nobodies when he wakes up. He had never heard of them, so calling him blood-thirsty for Org blood from the beginning is completely ludicrous.

So, you've got two things to prove to shake the main core of this argument. Provide events between Sora waking up and leaving the Bailey where:

-Where Sora was the instigator of either Nobody fight.
-Why Sora should've trusted the Organization in the first place.

Using DiZ, Naminé, Riku or any other character that didn't show up in Sora's point of view during that timeframe is completely irrelevant to why Sora was justified for his actions or vice versa. No theories on DiZ manipulating Sora's memories through Naminé. No Chain of Memories references since Sora's memory got wiped clean of that whole incident so it couldn't influence his actions (or else you're agreeing that Roxas did play a part in his emotions since Sora's not supposed to know him either). No Demyx/Xaldin/Saix-type events (Those happened afterwards unless you're viewing the game in the wrong order) And before you even THINK of bringing Mickey in this, you've already said that he had no reason to interfere in the Org's plans. And bringing up the "Sora will attack with his Keyblade at anything that moves" is completely ridiculous. He didn't bring it out against his first meeting with Seifer or in China when he got into that scuffle with Yao. He only takes it out when he needs to defend himself against the supernatural. Plus, any intentions the Org has are completely null and void due to how they acted.

And finally, don't bring Xigbar into this. The Org had already done their disappearing act and he decided to stick around long enough to taunt and confuse Sora even more. AFTER the second attack. So any argument using him in an attempt to try a cheap legal loophole on the first point is redundant.

It all comes down to that timeframe RIGHT THERE. Everything else doesn't matter. So, unless you can provide evidence of either of those two points, my Full Synchro trumps your Final Form.

 

I never really got it: Why did he have to destroy it?

 

it?! now org. 13 is an object?! nice! hw had to because they were being bulliews!!!! but all they wanted was hearts!!!!! that was it!!!!

 

True, but they did use some very questionable tactics to further their goals. Tactics, that I'm sure a lot of people would agree were very dangerous.

 

That was made of pure win. They all got what they deserved, whether it was good or not end of story...

 

Ah... if only it was so simple...

*Twitches, showing some form of weakness*

Wow... there is just too many points to refute them all. I could, but I don't have all day... as that is what it would literally take.

So Sora was only defending himself?

I want you guys to say that Sora did the right thing be killing Org XIII instead of the heartless. That a great justice was done by Sora. And more importantly, no turning back from your answer, regardless of the evidence I pull forth...

I want Repliku, Pika_power, and Destiny's Force to say it. I refuse to continue the debate until I get a consensus from each of you!

Edit: It's not really a trick question. I would say yes to it as well. It was a great service to the worlds...

Further edit: Hell, you don't even have to say, "Instead" off the Heartless, I'll even let you say "With" the heartless... just remember, the Judge is watching...

 

Remember, Sora did not kill the org instead of the heartless. He still killed heartless, even though he did not, because he knew it was his duty.

As you wish...

I Pika_Power openly say that I believe Sora did the right thing by destroying the org. I think - No, I know he is justified.

Now, I call your bluff.

Show your hand!

 

Quoted, so it will always remain in the courts log.

There is not bluff my fiend. *edit... Friend*

Go ahead and say "with" the heartless.

Anyone else want to jump on the bandwagon with me and Pika_power? I want to know that we are all in agreement...

 

Sora is justified for his actions. I really didn't want to bring up another chunk of text so we'll just leave it to that.

 

Can I change my staement to "With what knowledge he had at the time"?

Simply because I do not want to be screwed over, if in BbS or Days we find out that he doomed the worlds or something.

Edit:
In fact, can I change my wording at anytime, so long as it amounts to "Sora was justified in killing the org"?

I have just read one too many books where someone has signed something, and through wording, has come back to bite them in the butt.

If so, my statement (Currently) is:

"I think Sora was justified in killing the org, considering what knowledge he had at the time of the event being discussed"

Yes. I think that statement works out fine. I cannot see it ruining me.

Sorry for all the precautions. I have just been at this too long to loose out because of some cheap wording (I suppose you could call it trying to cover my ass). I can see a few pages into the future:

"I meant plural, not singular!"

 

*stands up* If it please the court, I would like it to be known that I believe that the defendant, Sora, was fully justified in his actions in relation to his experiences and information! I would like to cross-examine the defendant, Sora.
Judge Yen Sid: I'm going to allow this.
*sidles up to Sora* Mr. Sora, could you please relate to me your first direct conflict with the Organization?
Sora: Uh, they showed up at the Bailey at Radiant Garden.
And how was it that you reacted?
Sora: Well, there were a bunch of Nobodies attacking the Bailey gate, so I fought 'em and Leon helped out.
Leon: *stands up* I confirm that statement!
Judge: Sit down! *Leon is forced to sit down by the bailiff*
So, would I be correct in saying that first, you heard Organization XIII, and then Nobodies attacked the Bailey?
Sora: Yeah.
So, you were simply with your friend Squall-
Leon: THAT'S LEON! *is knocked out by the bailiff*
As I was saying, with your friend LEON when Nobodies attacked you unprovoked?
Sora: Yeah.
And afterwards, please tell us in your own words what happened?
Sora: Organization XIII showed up. I called them down, and they laughed and teleported away.
And then what happened?
Sora: Donald tried to get to them, but Xigbar showed up and stopped us.
And so, even when asked nonviolently, the Nobody in question failed to allow you passage?
ICSP: OBJECTION! The defendant used unnecessary force, and threatened one of my clients with violence!
Judge: Sustained. I assume you have an explanation for this.
Sora, I remember you said that you fought Nobodies alongside Squa- LEON at the Bailey? And that the Judge himself, Master Yen Sid, informed you that Organization XIII controlled Nobodies?
Judge: Tread carefully. What's your point?
My point, Your Honour, is that my client was assaulted by Nobodies before he even met Organization XIII in the flesh. And what the prosecution fails to admit is that as far as my client knew at the time, the Organization attacked first. Sora's actions when confronted by Xigbar were purely self-defence. In conclusion, the entire event was instigated by the Organization itself, and thus my client, Sora, acted purely in self-defence.
Judge: Is that all?
I believe that in light of this, the other evidence fielded by the prosecution should be looked over again. My defence rests.

 

Double talking your way out of it huh? Well, in that case, I can neither confirm or deny that you will ever hear the true reason on why I made the above post.

Ok... first of all... your not doing it right... it goes like this!!



Socondly... you are god modding me...

 

So, let's say, if a murderer killed someone when thinking along the lines that he sees a person's actions, not understanding fully what the real backstory is and what they are, and having the little information he had gained to justify the fact that they deserved to die from that alone? And that won't get him to jail right off whatsoever?

Oh, fack -_-. Sorry, got tempted, though ICSP is getting gang banged here (no offense xP) *scurries off*

 

But it is. Because its a video game. I dont even think nomura looked this much into it, like we are. Im going say something I've noticed from experience.

In the most popular Anime/Manga/games of today, there are usually at least 2 parts, i guess it can kind of be said that its a tradition for these manga/anime/games to adopt these forms, because it seems to sell the most among americans, japanese, anyone, basically. Well, the two forms above work with the villain characters anyway.

The 1st part usually consists of a hero realizing what their powers are, and doing their normal duties. Usually killing some sort of creature that becomes sort of the "anti-thesis" to whatever powers or whatever duty the hero has...

Naruto: Random ninja...like Haku and Zabuza. He never had anything against them...but they were "bad" and he was "good" so he had to fight them

Bleach: Hollows: its ichigo's duty as a soul reaper to beat the **** out of these things. Again, not really a reason...they just do bad stuff and needs to be a protector.

Kingdom Hearts: Heartless: sora had just become a keyblade weilder, meaning that he wasnt really recognized by anyone accept the heartless. Thats why most of the bosses were heartless in kh1...and he would generally, protect whatever world that needed protection.

After a while of defeating random ninja, hollows, or heartless there is always some guy at the "end of the tunnel" who controls those beings, or sides with them. There is usually an epic fight between the good guy and the bad guy. Sometimes, there is such a twist that two good guys fight eachother, because they have opposing issues, and one good guy might not actually be "good" at all.

Naruto: Sasuke Vs. Naruto
Bleach: Ichigo Vs. Byakuya
Kingdom Hearts: Sora Vs. Riku and then Sora Vs. Ansem

Next part: (this usually happens in part 2 of the story)
The story gets deeper *dun dun dun* and all the sudden, the hero is "noticed" by some really strong people, who happen to be bad. and really strong. and really want to control/kill the hero.

Naruto: Akatsuki
Bleach: Espada
Kingdom Hearts: Organization 13.

(notice a trend?)

Its usually not about the really small issues like "were the heroes justified in killing the members of the organizations." Its about following a specific way of telling a story. I mean, if Nomura really wanted to get into the issues of "was the hero justified or not" kingdom hearts would have been a fuller, less plot hole story. Nomura would have really developed the characters if he wanted to get into the issue of "was the hero justified in killing them," maybe even showing a side of each of the org members that a normal viewer could relate to, even making them seem more human...

But because this is NOT the case, all we see in org 13 is that they are BAD. And as the hero, for the sake of completing the videovgame u have to kill BAD GUYS. Thats all it gets down to. There really isnt a deeper meaning...people dont play the plots of a videogame, they play the gameplay of a videogame. If Nomura really cared that much about the plot he would have turned kingdom hearts into a book, or a movie. Im not saying he doesnt care at all, im saying he doesnt care as much as we think he does when it comes to very deep character issues like being justified in killing people.

This is my opinion: storywise and being able to relate with things in life, no, sora was not justfied in taking the lives of living things for his own agenda.

But gamewise, and for the sake of the plot, of course he was justfied. We need to beat the game.

Btw, those arent the only 3 anime/manga/game I know with my "traditional" story pattern. Its in a lot more things. Especially the more popular anime/manga/games where people care about the action and the lights and the sounds. and what happens next.

thats my 13 cents...

 

I disagree, on the grounds that not all videogames have to have a linear plot. Yes, we play videogames for the gameplay, but have you ever wondered why people bother with the story? If you care about a plot, you don't have to just turn it into a book or a movie. Games are fully capable of having complex plots. Just look at Assassin's Creed. It has one of the best stories I've ever seen, and one of the amazing parts was the opportunity to be a part of that epic tale.

Anyway, that's off-topic. Now to address another matter.

ICSP, I just did it to head off what I expected you to say. Don't take it personally or anything.

 

This has to be the post that thrives and shines above all otherd to make absolute sense. Not all stories follow the same pattetn, true, but Kingdom Hearts follows the typical version of what Storm explained. And, face it. KH has its plot holes, and lack of making sense (Random flowery Keyblade, ftw? WTF? Yet this was only KH2 that I saw this problem in). I still don't see why can't they make another disc instead of cramming all of it into one, considering it would've been a more deeper story, and not needing to make the KH2 Novels to explain scenes that never made it in.

Despite that though, I had to say my agreement on this. I think that's what I said around the beginning. The Org. were killed because they simply needed to be for the game to end. That simple.

 

I only am trying to cover my ass.

I will put in concrete that Sora was justified in killing the org. Anything else has a chance to confine me, and be used against me.

 

First off, I do not prefer how you stated it. I will though stand by this statement. "Sora was justified in his acts because he acted in defense of not only himself but others against an entire Organization that manipulated him and attacked him as well as friends."

Secondly:
Evidence as it would be presented by the court.

1. Sora is a 15 year old boy, not knowledgeable of what all is going on in the universe. At no time did the Organization announce their TRUE intentions to the boy or ask for assistance.
2. 6 of the Org members are responsible, especially #1 the Superior, of releasing Heartless into the real worlds and causing a lot of mayhem. They also without a doubt created the Nobodies and their condition. This was not known to Sora at the time and he did not -act- upon it.
3. Sora was attacked twice unprovoked. Roxas in technicality was forbidden to leave the Org unrestrained because he was a part of Sora and then Sora came to be used because of his position as a Keyblader. When Roxas was not returning willingly, Xemnas and the Organization agreed to have Axel terminate Roxas. This again shows cult personality with psychopathic intentions.
4. At NO time ever did the Organization inform Sora of their intentions and instead provoked attacks and manipulated this 15 year old boy and his companions.
5. The Organization used the Heartless as a tool and innocent people were harmed or lost their Hearts.
6. The Hearts went to a pseudo Kingdom Hearts and not where they were intended to go in the balance of nature. Had the Organization done what they were supposed to, they would have returned to their natural bodies and should therefore have simply kept attempting to deal with killing off Heartless to go to the proper domain to gain back their lost identities. It is a -FACT- that the Nobodies mainly all knew who they were with the exception of Roxas and Namine.
7. Being sentient beings, the Nobodies are responsible for the acts of attempted 'murder' themselves. They attacked Beast who went mad and was nearly provoked to harm a woman, lock up the servants at his castle in a dungeon and do acts based on corruption of Darkness. This is akin to someone mind controlling another and manipulating them to do bad acts not condoned normally.
8. At no time did Sora attack to 'murder' the Organization members. He attacked to -stop- the Organization from using him and harming others. Their intentions may have had reasons but they were never pointed out to Sora until late in the scenarios and then the 15 YEAR OLD boy did still not know what to believe.
9. Saix shows signs of narcissism, sadism, and though one member kidnapped Kairi and was wrong, he did not seek to return her after he abducted her when she fled from the first captor. Instead he used her as bait, forcing the 15 Year old boy to his knees in cruelty and the girl also is a minor that was kidnapped and held against her will.
10. The Organization held Namine against her will and used her to do acts that were dubious in nature to include messing up Sora's mind in the first place. Afterwards, these memories were removed.
11. The creation of a lifeform 'Repliku' and serious mistreatment, altering of his mind, abuse he and Namine endured under the hands of the Organization were unjustified.
12. Every one of the Organization members that faced Sora did NOT have to fight and could have fled at any time or let him know of their plans straight out, or surrendered but instead continued to not do any act as such. They also tried to use discordance in their group because of Axel fleeing and his plan as a distraction while still not ever declaring what they were doing or asking for assistance.
13. The Organization created 'monster' Heartless to be able to be used and set a curse on Captain Jack Sparrow, though who is dubious in nature himself did not merit such an attack. These Heartless were also found in Beast's castle and attacked the group and held people restrained in the dungeon. Also, a corrupted dragon was made, destroying that dragon by making it a Heartless and dragons are the very symbol of a land.
14. The conditions of the fact that the Organization top 6 members should answer for crimes of releasing the Heartless in the first place, manipulating Heartless on Radiant Gardens, and many crimes associated with the Heartless's acts because they are 'sentient' while Heartless or not calls for its own trial alone.
15. Others who were not the top 6 and remained with the Organization's plots are also held in account. It would legally be tried as if they were cult members following orders since that is how diligently and zealously they followed Xemnas. Axel would also be tried for his actions of kidnapping Kairi and trying to apprehend or 'kill' Roxas. Those who follow a cultish sort of leader also have their own trials to deal with were they alive.

Due to the fact the client is a 15 year old boy, never informed of what the Organization's intentions, whether partially justified or not, cannot be held accountable since at no time was he 'bloodthirsty' and was doing what he must to stop them from doing wrongs on several worlds. Truly no one knows all of it since apparently had the Nobodies merely gone after Heartless and asked for a Keyblader's help and been up front, returned them to the spot they belonged and then returned to their whole forms by the scheme of the universe (as depicted by Nomura himself) the Organization's actions cannot be condoned, but perhaps understood at some time later. Not only did they manipulate a boy but scammed an entire series of worlds, with past crimes the top 6 were affiliated with prior to even becoming Nobodies. They remember these crimes and are held accountable for their own trial to explain their actions. Since they are now deceased, we must toss that to mystery because of their behaviors.

In the end, a culmination of crimes wronged against the Defendant and allies with no clear motif caused the Defendant to act justly with what he had to go off of. The Defendant, being a 15 year old boy without any history of 'violence' or showing signs of being dysfunctional in nearly any society as he made several friends instead, shows that his intentions are meant for the best. The Organization showed violence, manipulations, and their intentions were solidly unclear which could have been presented at any time. Therefore it would be found that they put themselves in the position they were in and the deaths would be excusable in any court of law. Regardless of how you want to defend this ICSP, seriously, there is no way in a court of law Sora would be found guilty. A 15 year old boy versus an entire group of psychopathic individuals that had the power all along to explain themselves and ask for help instead of causing mayhem for their own benefit would in no way be seen as a murderer.

You may not like it, but that is how it is. He would undeniably come off cleared of any crime allegation because of the scenario the Organization painted for themselves and the fact they did nothing to dismiss it and be up front. It is an act of defense of others and self that Sora would be cleared by and the Org, were it alive, would be standing trial for their actions. Since they are not alive, the situation would rest with the fact of self defense and defense of others.

In final, this is not to say the Organization did not have -reasons- for what they had done. Anyone could sympathize with the fact they wanted their Hearts back and to become whole. However, the METHODS employed is what has to be questioned and also why the top 6 did the crimes in the first place prior to being Nobodies. Even if they were hypothetically cleared of crimes they had done, which I doubt they could clear all charges laid on them, Sora's case would stand as it was and he would be found innocent.

 

ICSP, I would say this paticular debate is over.

One mistake on your part is one you would not forsee. When you made the thread, the question was "Was Sora jusified?"
The thing is, given the circumstances, Sora was justified. A better question would be "Was organization Xiii justified?"
If that were the case, the end of this would have gone differently.

 

Yeah... I noticed the error... thats why I am coordinating something else...

:rockdoversad:

By the way... he was justified, since he did end up helping Org XIII in the end.

The procecution rest you honor...

v_V