Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

Proof please.

He said that he had so many plans with Sora. That could mean anything. it does not mean he manipulated Sora. He wanted to, but could not.

Sora never met DiZ. Notice something. DiZ had Riku as his pawn. On a desire to do what DIZ wanted, he accepted the darkness. DiZ could have order Riku to kill off Org Xiii. The funny thing is, he never does. He gets Sora back instead. Perhaps he is against the org, and is trying to undo what they did?

Now we have a direct clash. I think vengeance does justify murder. Especially if the vengeance is because the org shoved DiZ into darkness for eternity, and used his research to swallow the hearts of untold billions. (Yes, swallowing hearts is a big deal. Not everyone has a princess of Heart as a girlfriend.)

Now, you need to tell me something. The org did not use Mickey or Riku for multiple reasons, such as being unable to find them. Now, why didn't DiZ use them? He had Riku at his disposal. Mickey would be slightly more difficult, but he still had Riku.

Xemnas was the undisputed bad guy. He was the same person as Xehanort the apprentice, who unleashed a plague of heartless. He was Ansem Seeker of Darkness, who controlled the tide of heartless. We suspect he was the main bad guy in BbS. I do not care if he is without a heart. He deserves to die.

 

He did try to use Riku but Riku refused seeing he was too vengeful and that Riku's goals were different. Riku just wanted to get Sora back to where he belonged, protect Kairi, stop Axel from his plan and also he talked to Namine and Axel understanding their plight. He didn't agree to DiZ's assessments on what was to be done all the way and felt sympathy to Roxas as well.

You are right that DiZ did have plans for vengeance but it seemed according to the Ansem Reports that Riku opened his eyes by his own sacrifices and steadfast nature throughout everything. He apologized for seeking vengeance which consumed him for a long time and thanked Riku for helping make him see. However, DiZ, as you said, never did really carry out any of the plans he had for vengeance by the time he could have. He had a change of Heart and also just went to do what he felt was right. So DiZ had plans but never carried them out. He can't be responsible then for doing anything to Sora because as Pika said, Sora never even met DiZ. Also, there is nothing to show that in the times he was in the capsule, DiZ did anything obscure. I'd be sure that Namine and Riku would have watched like a hawk as Riku did not entirely trust DiZ either.

 

I'm just going to give you this quote I've been meaning to use, something to think about and then I'll be on my merry way.

Interpret that how you will. Of course, I know exactly how the prosecution's going to use it, but I'll just wait and see if I'm right.

Oh, and Riku only helped DiZ to wake Sora up. As soon as that happened, his job was done and he quit. It's in the novels.

 

Well, I looked at the vid. He makes dusk and lesser nobodies look evil. He then said that Organization XIII members were different than Dusk. He mentions that Org XIII are in fact inteligent people, whom were working towards a mysterious goal. He does not say if that goal was good or evil.

Proof is difficult to come by, as you about to find out. The best evidence I can offer is DiZ strongly implying that he KNEW Sora would destroy Organization XIII.

Yes, it can mean anything, but, he had one primary goal, the systematic ahnialation of Organization XIII.

So his plans for Sora probably were the same. Also, he never said he could not manipulate Sora, he just said that when Sora was an acting force, he saw his plans unravel. Perhaps they unraveled in that he had to destroy Kingdom Hearts himself, and did not realize that Org XIII had used Sora to free so many hearts, thus bringing them closer to Org XIII's goal.

Exactly, but Riku probably knew more of the situation of Org XIII than Sora did. So, maybe Riku was asked to destroy Org XIII, but Riku saw that unnesisary, and opted to part ways with DiZ once Sora was restored.

Vengence does not justify murder. Locking someone in a prison, does not justify the murder of all of Org XIII, especially since 7 members had nothing to do with DiZ being sealed away in the realm of darkness.

They freed millions of hearts that they "swallowed up," and would have freed many more if it wasn't for that damn kid. (Scooby Doo reference)

I already explained, Riku and Mickey were both too well informed to be used against Org XIII. If they were so "OMGZ DA EVILS" Mickey would have bum rushed them head on the entire game. But the only time he ever clashed with them was during the "1000 Heartless Battle", and the ending when Xemnas charged himself into Twilight Form using Kingdom Hearts.

But then again, if I had three Keyblade Masters staring me down, I would have charged up with Kingdom Hearts too. And its obvios that his plans were not to use Kingdom Hearts for his own gain.

"Hear me kingdom hearts! It seems we must begin anew. Ah, but know this; I will give you as many hearts as it takes. Mark my words! You can not be more complete without me, than I without you. Heed me Kingdom Hearts! Lend me your power so that we may be complete!"

He sounds as though he is pleading with Kingdom Hearts, but it also gives away, that using Kingdom Hearts as a weapon was not his original intentions.

So I ask you, Why did Riku and Mickey refuse to take down Org XIII directly? Proof please... I say it was because they were not evil.

Prove Xemnas is the bad guy in BbS... for all we know he might be one of the heroes... *looks at the physical similarities of Terra and Xemnas...*

So... you're saying I am right? That Riku did not think Org XIII was evil enough to spend effort on, and that DiZ was unnesisariliy obsessed with revenge, making him the bad guy? (Not trying to put words in you mouth, but that's where it sounds like your going...)

Yeah, but if DiZ was no longer obsessed with revenge, why did he still go to "The World That Never Was" and destroy hearts knowingly even when he had a chance to back out. Mickey even told him to back out, but DiZ said, "My Heart compells me!"

He never calls anyone in Org XIII evil, the worst thing he ever calls them is "Ignorant." And why does he never call them evil? Because he probably knows that they are not evil... at least not in the pure sense.

Namine sympathized with Roxas, Riku only cared about Sora being restored. We see them both in Data Twilight Town, perhaps thats when the reprograming ocured. Also, when Sora awoke, his memories were at 100%, according to DiZ' system. But, Sora never regained all his memories, he lost all his magic, and some of KH 1.

Perhaps DiZ left some incomplete so he could allow a few haunting memories of people in black coats tormenting him in Castle Oblivion. This is pure speculation, I have no proof... other than the fact that DiZ was over confident that Sora would ahnialate Org XIII... which he did.

Why would Riku not trust DiZ? Is it because he is "evil?" *Does the Dr. Evil Laugh*

*Post Finisher*
Another strong arguement that came out of this is... If Organization XIII was SOO evil that they absolutly needed to be stopped... why did Riku and Mickey not directly confront them? They were about the same power level as Sora.

Thanks a lot... thats why Xemnas powered himself up with Kingdom Hearts... he was cornered by three individuals, each of which was more than strong enough to take him down.

 

Dusks are under the control of the org completely. They dispel after their leader dies. many lesser nobodies are used by the org.

So he knew Sora would try to destroy the org. Yay? If these spooky people in black coats decided to start messing around with my friends, of course I would try to stop them. Despite the org's intentions, they did appear to attack hollow Bastion.

Considering that the speech he made was about the randomness of hearts, I do not think it is unfeasible to assume he was talking about a failed attempt to manipulate Sora.

Come now. DiZ could have done anything he wanted to Riku. He could weave him a story about the org trying to kill Sora, or stop him being complete. Besides, he had Namine. It proves that he is above the org, that he did not resort to using a little girl to accomplish his will. If he wanted to, Riku's heart would have been turned to mush.

 

i got a funny story. you know how in KH1 sora was cool before he went into deep jungle and said "Tarzan Go, Sora Go Go!" the reason is becuase in deep jungle a gayness bug went into his ear and tuned him gay all the way up to KH2!

was sora justified in destroying Orginization XIII? no hes just an idiot got in the way of there plans. i mean is it really THAT bad to want to have hearts so they can exist? seriously think about it.

 

It's not bad that you want your hearts but the way of doing it like ruining Hollow Bastion kidnapping Kairi and hurting Beast is pretty bad and so they had to be stopped. It's not bad to want their hearts back but they didn't have to be that drastic.

 

Those are some really good points. I did think Sora was justified but after reading some of the posts i almost began to doubt. Thanks though, you put me back on track.

 

Wrong... actually Org XIII, has exclusive control over the "High Ranking Nobodies", such as Berzerkers, Sorcerers, Assassins and such. Dusk have either the option of following Org XIII, or remaining independant.

Dusk are people, and all people have free will.

Even over the higher ranking nobodies... Org XIII's control was not absolute. Samurai helped Roxas fight against Heartless, and Dusk after he left Org XIII. And do not counter with "Well each Org member controls thier own type!" Since, Axel was attacked by Assassins in the Betwixt and Between battle.

Ok... how did he know that he would systematically destroy Org XIII? Tell me how he could be so confident, knowing that scientist know everything is unreliable.

They did appear to be attacking Hallow Bastion, but if you look, most of thier attention and armies were brought there to attack the dark depths, as you see a group of nobodies heading there, most likely to deal with Malificent. Also, testing's Sora's power was a matter of convienence.

He wanted to manipulate Sora, and succeeded in getting him to destroy Org XIII, but the randomness was when Sora actually brought Org XIII closer to restoring thier hearts, as Kingdom Hearts was already finished when he got there.

Um... no... that part of your arguement was just wrong.

DiZ could not have used Riku, Riku was too smart to be manipulated into doing something wrong. All Riku wanted was Sora to return, but it seems he was adverse to DiZ completing his goal, otherwise he would have helped him.

Also, Namine was using the little girl. You can see that Namine appears to be affraid of DiZ, she winces when he calls her. She was inside his system, where he basically was god. He used her, even manhandled her when she tried to give Roxas hope.

DiZ could have turned Riku's heart to mush, if Namine let him.

Basically all they wanted was Sora to kill heartless, but he opted to kill them instead.

No... imagine this... someone shows you a wild boar, but you are an expert marksman, armed with the most powerful weapon in existance. He tells you that if you kill the wild boar, countless thousands of lives would be saved. But instead, you shoot the guy who let the boar loose, and kill the guy who let it loose, along with his friends and family. Meanwhile, the wild boar is killing people as well. Thats what Kingdom Hearts 2 story line boils down too...

Actually, he journeyed to the realm of darkness, to cleanse the power of Kingdom Hearts. So, actually he was attacking Ansem the Seeker of the Dark, but he went though the back door.

Yeah, but he could never deal the finishing blow! EVER!

This could imply that he never wanted to kill them! He only showed up to revive Sora!

Riku and Mickey only attacks Xenmas when Xemnas absorbs Kingdom Hearts.

And do not say that the Only chance Mickey had was at the end... as he does dive towards Xemnas during hallow bastion, and yet does not kill him there...

As far as warning DiZ to not have revenge... Ahem...

Ansem: I was obsessed with thoughts of revenge...
Mickey: I can't help you with revenge.
Ansem: Yes, I know, Riku told me a thousand times.

They both tried to talk him out of getting revenge on Organization XIII.

Yes actually. According to Kingdom Hearts folklore, all hearts are supposed to return to Kingdom Hearts upon thier death. Also, he would "give as many hearts as it takes" by taking them from the heartless, which is an abomination of nature. I think that Kingdom Hearts itself would be disbursed to be given to all the nobodies.

Also, even if giving hearts to Kingdom Hearts is unatural, its more natural than remaining inside a Heartless.

Yes... but also benefits the heart. It benefits all hearts which are given back thier bodies, as it does the body (nobody) as they are complete with a heart. It's beneficial for everyone... I don't see who the loser is... Maybe Sora? But Sora is going to be killing heartless anyway, as its part of being a keyblade master.

They were backing up Sora... and they had all killed (or helped kill) org members in the past.

Basically, if three guys were standin in front of you, holding three of the most powerful weapons in existance... one of which think's you are Satan, the second would do whatever the first sais... yeah, I would be scared myself.

But why was Mickey behind the scenes?

When did they fight the Org??? The only time Riku shows any aggression towards the Org was when he confronted Saix, and that was only because Kairi was afraid of him.

Bottom line, if Riku and Mickey KNEW Org XIII needed to be stopped, then Sora would not have taken them all out single handedly.

There is a theory which suggest that Terra is Xehanort... which I believe. Now.... if thats so, then Xehanort is the hero of BbS.

They did, but that was not until Xemnas opted to absorb the power of Kingdom Hearts.

 

Either way, surely the Org would protect their meal ticket? Overall, they did not make a good impression with him at the start, or at all. The Beast thing for example. The train station assault. The hollow bastion attack.

This sort of aids me.

They did not strip the nobodies from obeying Roxas. With Axel, they did. This implies that all of the nobodies are under the org's control.

Because he knew Sora was loyal to his friends. This means Sora would try to protect them from Nobodies.

They were attacking hollow bastion. Call it what you will. They took a two birds with one stone attitude. Sora was one of the birds.

So, just tell me again, how did he manipulate Sora? Through memories? There is no proof of that.

As for the randomness, fine. I will give you that point.

Riku, too smart to be manipulated? Have you played through KH 1 recently? Besides, Riku had no aversion to killing Nobodies. Remember, there was no problems in COM.

You got a couple of names wrong. Namine using the little girl?

Namine cannot be afraid. She is a Nobody, incapable of emotion. Same with Roxas. Or so DiZ thought. Do not judge him harshly for that, he did blow himself up over it.

DiZ could have forced Namine to turn Riku over to his side. Riku is not strong enough to resist that sort of invasion.

Not instead, as well. Sora only refused to kill heartless at the last second, Where they could hurt no one but him.

Not so. Try that the guy's friends and families are tormenting mine with boars, in the hope that I i will kill the boars. I shoot the boars and some of the people. Later on, I find out that shooting the boars means that the people can eat the remains of my family. I continue shooting boars, then at the very end, when I see the remains of my family and friends being cooked, I snap and refuse to kill any more boars.

Also, I know that these people have been attacking my friends and family before hand, and that their underlings attacked me. Also I find out that at the end I am just going to be killed and disposed of.

Yeah, that I how I see it. The thing is, the remains are still able to be used to bring my friends back. Instead they are being used to feed these people.

Exactly. Seems sort of like what he was doing here. Just researching them, and making a stand at the end. Stepping in to help out occasionally.

(How do I get around this one?)

Well neither does DiZ. He never kills a member of the org. Does this mean he thinks they were justified? He just left the work to others. Mickey stepped in to help Sora. He also fought against the org in Castle oblivion, as a card. (Yes, it does count)

He was fine with fighting too. I suppose he never did kill them... He did let Sora in to finish them off though.

But according to you Xemnas only absorbed Kingdom hearts because they were going to attack him! It is a paradox!

He failed to? What else to say? He hardly dove towards him to do anything else. He also said after the Goofy "death" scene, "they'll pay for this". Sounds like he would have slaughtered the org if he had the chance.

Mickey only said he could not help with revenge. He could still sit back and watch. Also he was only against revenge, not the death of the org. Same outcome, different motives.

The real KH. The one that resides in darkness, not the pseudo one.

But Xemnas does not release them from the heartless, Sora does. So Sora releases them onto a natural heart life, then
Xemnas snaps them up to give them to his KH.

The thing is, the hearts do not go to their bodies, but to whoever can get them. So "My" heart could get released, then it would be given to you by chance.

Sora could not have taken on Xemnas by himself. Riku and Mickey would not have fought, according to your logic. They all warn him not to do it, but he still absorbs kingdom hearts. He does not flee, but rather fights. (No, waiting inside that place he made does not count as running) Through the battle, he is given chances to repent.

Sora: There is more to a heart that anger or hate, a heart has all kinds of emotions. Don't you remember?
Xemnas: Unfortunately, I don't!

His style I guess. Do you have a better reason?

He didn't. Riku took out a couple with Mickey's help. One was Sora, one was killed by Axel. One expended all his energy trying to stop the org.

Riku and Mickey knew Heartless xehanort needed to be stopped, but Sora took him out single handedly.

Ho-hum? Sounds interesting. Linkies please! :D

But they threatened him, causing him to absorb KH, according to you.

 

No, Sora was not justified. I admit some of his fights were for self defense, like the second Demyx fight. But some things were honestly too drastic...like the Xaldin one:
Beast: "YOU STILL MY ROSE I KICK UR ASS!"
Sora, Beast, Donald and Goofy KILLED him because he took a stupid magical rose. AND BELLE GOT AWAY!
Sora was used a lot because he had the keyblade. Despite the fact for good intentions or bad, he will always be used. He needs to learn how to not make stupid decisions.

All in all, its a videogame...and I know this is a forum but im like post 270-something...Nomura probably doesnt care anymore...

 

That Rose was the only hope for him and his servants. If that rose was stolen or destroyed then he would be a beast forever.

 

I see, but i remember the cutscene now and belle took the rose as well...Couldnt they have just beat him up? The beast had what he wanted...Or even the first Demyx fight! Sora had the intentions of killing Demyx for the olympic...thing...or whatever restored sora's strength...if Demyx had not run away, he probably would have faded back into darkness...The only people actually worth killing out of the 13 were Marluxia, Luxord, Larxene and Xemnas, because they all did things that brought harm to innocent people, or were going to...other than that, sure the rest had evil intentions, but they just used sora to kill some heartless, which he probably would have killed anyway, since they were being nussances

 

no he wasn't because all they wanted to do was freaking exist lol

 

Yes but he would not give up to get the Beast's heartless. That's why he came back from first visit. Remember?

 

Um... thier only hope was Sora... so he was thier meal ticket... not the dusk....

Actually, no it hurts you... all nobodies have the choice to do whatever they want, but many desire to take after the ones they take after. (It makes sense when you think about it.)

Um, DiZ knew Sora would protect his friends, but at this point, Org XIII did not mess with any of his friends, exept Riku, but all of those members were dead. So... how did he know this?

Why do you think they wanted to kill Sora? Sora was their only hope, you do not throw stones at your only hope.

Prove he did not manipulate Sora? He said planned it out... he told Riku and Roxas he would use Sora as a tool to take out Org XIII. And Sora did. I don't know how he did it... he's the scientist not me.

OMG! Masta P agreed with me?!?

Who manipulated him in CoM????

Also, if the words "smart" offends you... let me put it this way, Riku was too independant to be manipulated.

No, I meant what I said, read it again. DiZ could only manipulate Riku's memories through Namine.

If she does not have emotions... then what was the plotline of CoM? She wanted Sora to be with her because she was lonely. She was manipulated by Marluxia and Larxene because she was scared.

People with no emotions cannot be lonely or scared. Remember, Namine and Roxas are very special nobodies...

Riku from KH2 is much stronger than Riku from KH1... my guess is he would have figured out that DiZ was playing games with his memories before any substacial brain damage was done, and killed DiZ.

Yes... instead. He let most of the heartless of Hallow Bastion live.

He even let Malificent, a woman who's name means "Doing Evil Or Harm" and lives up to it very well, live and rule the heartless.

Actually, he snapped and refused when he saw that nobodies were helping him kill heartless... so that makes no sense at all. Sora makes no sense... and your illustration is just disturbing... and does not illustrate Kingdom Hearts 2 plotline at all...

They were not going to kill Sora because he had served his usefullness, but rather they were going to kill him because they were almost done, and he was single handedly taking down all thier plans, and if he would have succeeded everything they did would have been in vain, and a great tragedy would befall all the worlds.

Sora had friends that were heartless and nobodies at the end of KH2? Where?

And if thats what your implying... then Org XIII's plan would have still benefited them.

He had a chance to talk to Org XIII... why would he need more research?

But DiZ takes action to stop Org XIII, Mickey does not, other than waking up Sora. Thats the only part of the game thats canon, if Sora was to get knocked out, Mickey can wake him up, ther is nothing else in the game Mickey can do.

I really do not see the difference... To the heart its the same place. Also, They only made the psuedo one to keep the hearts in storage to return to its body.

Thats because Sora is his friend... for god knows why...

Sora would have attacked him no matter what at this point, since he had so much nobody killing momentum. Riku would do whatever Sora would.

Mickey probably would have stood aside, it not being his fight, but he might have helped Riku, being his friend and all. I do not see a paradox here...

Um... look at the video again... it only goes to help the case and defend my client. The rock was caused by a Heartless attacking a Nobodie... so... why would he blame the Nobodies? The heartless were at fault, and the nobodies were trying to stop them.

But DiZ could have said "They are evil, and deserve to die!" but he did not, because then he would be lieing to Mickey, and Mickey would slap him with a keyblade for lieing...

Sora free's the hearts, thats why they use him. Xemnas wants to turn thier hearts back to wher they truly belong, not in darkness, but inside a body.

Ever wonder why Org XIII hand picked heartless that were strong? :huh:

Because all the strong heartless have nobodies.

Um... Xemnas tried to take on Sora by himself, it didn't work out too well...

Also if he ran, he would have abandon Kingdom Hearts, so that would have been pointless, and would have wasted all those years if reserch and collecting.

:( Poor Xemnas. He lived as a nobody for years.

Also, he just absorbed Kingdom Hearts, since hearts are the sorce of all emotions, he went into an emo fit. And could not control the emotions he was having. (Dude... it sounds funny, but it is a solid arguement.)

Yeah... do you? Mickey is a straight shooter, who confronts wrong on the spot... so why not up front there?

Why did he stop there? He could have kept going... as Saix was obviosly afraid of him. (Or at least he acted afraid of him and ran away)

Um... I see not why this is in this arguement...

Sure... Erks hates this theory...

http://www.kh-vids.net/showthread.php?t=38985

It was one of the first threads I opened... and I am definatly not the first person to come up with this idea.

It was after Sora threatened him, and Riku would surely have gotten involved...

 

(Wow, this question is like...beyond the Dead Panda point.)

I had an epiphany a few nights ago, so I'm going to ask a few questions of my own, I just hope I'm not the only Shakespeare nut here.

Was Lady Macbeth right in her manipulation of Lord Macbeth so he could kill Duncan? I mean, she just wanted to be Queen, right? Or what about Antonio shipping Prospero off to sea with Miranda, simply because he wanted to be the Duke of Milan? Claudius killing Hamlet to be King, were any of them right in what they did? Was the Organization right in doing what they were doing, simply for a heart? Noble intentions turned to cruel deeds.

Compare them, if you'd all be so kind, to the major characters in Shakespeare's Plays. The Tempest, Macbeth, Hamlet, look what happens in those plays. Everyone gets exactly what they deserve, nothing more, nothing less. No one will argue that Antonio was the real good guy, or that Lady Macbeth wasn't all that bad, or that Hamlet Jr. should've just talked things out with Claudius. Why argue those points for something else? What's done is done. Cruel Inventions(Psuedo-KH, releasing heartless into worlds...) turned to plague the Inventor(Xemnas), until the pont when turning back was no longer an option. Then who's to blame? Inventor, or Victim?

(At the risk of typing in Iambic Pentameter, I'm just going to stop now)

 

Its different. The people in the play's actions benefited themselves at the cost of others.

The only calateral damage from the Org XIII's plans would have been the heartless.

Beast, and the inhabitants of Hallow Bastion would only suffer temporarily... but even they would benefit in the long run...

 

Yeah, so why did they let their minions attack him until he fell on his butt? The org is more organized than that. If it were random nobodies, they would try to stop them. Instead they keep coming. This implies that it is actually dusks under their control. Besides, why would so many rouge nobodies attack Sora? It makes no sense that they wiould focus on him. They do not want the keyblade.

But the org took away that free will when they attacked Axel. A mere assassin cannot resist Xemnas.

He could just bring Sora back, and know that he will attack nobodies. Yen Sid gave him the info on the org, then Sora went to Hollow Bastion. Now, what happened here? To Sora, the org attacked, then laughed at him. Not good impressions so far. DiZ could take a guess about this.

Fine, Sora was a car. They threw stones at him to scratch him and annoy him. Sora got attacked in Hollow Bastion. If someone attacks you, I think you can retaliate. You seem to think that Sora should just accept the org's actions, and keep doing what they want. I think that after what they do to Sora, he has seen enough of their bad side to start fighting back.

I think it was more a "point the tank in a direction and shove the gearstick forward" thing. He wanted the light to vanquish the dark. The org has got the power to manipulate the heartless.

He knew Sora would do it, from knowledge of how hearts work. Needless to say, Sora went off on a tangent, away from DiZ's plan. This made him realize how futile trying to understand the heart is.

No one really. They were trying to use Repliku. It failed. What I meant was that in COM, Riku killed nobodies.

Independence means nothing. He was independent in KH1.

So? Namine will do anything DiZ says. Riku would not notice if he didn't wake up one morning. He would be peacefully asleep. Namine would open up his memories, then change them so the org held Sora hostage. Now, how would Riku counter this? After all, Riku has shown that he will do anything for Sora.

I did say "or so DiZ thought".

Anyway, I will put my nobody heart topic here. Nobodies do not have emotions. (except a certain few) Notice that all nobodies that felt emotion quit the org. Axel quit. Roxas quit. Namine quit/stopped being their pawn. This could be because they did not like the turn of events the org took. It was for Axel. He did not like how the org attacked Roxas.

I just think we should note that every emotion experiencing nobody left the org.

Only if it is taken gradually. He could wake up one morning and forget everything except that Sora is prisoner in the org.

Hmm? He did not want to kill heartless anymore, but he had to to protect people, so he did. Rendering that arm of your argument gone. He only truly refused at TWTNW.

What did she do that was wrong to Sora during the second game? She just wanted a castle. She attacked Disney castle. That's it. She then helped him against the org. Sure, he can let her live. She redeemed herself.

No, he snapped at TWTNW. Hollow bastion he keeps fighting, although he doesn't like it.

Also you were the one who brought up boar, not me.

Saix said "Can I kill him yet?" (or something along those lines) Not "You are getting too far, die!" The tried to kill him because he served his usefulness.

Well, not exactly. But in the analogy the friends and family are the general population of all worlds.

The org do not know everything about themselves. Or more likely, he could not make sense of Xemnas' answers.

Both revive Sora, knowing what he will do. Both attack at the end of the game.

The thing is, the person's heart could go to someone else. Xemnas' heartless was destroyed and sent to the real KH, yet he gains emotions in the end. This means he is using someone else's heart.

But Mickey can still fight. He can just leave the finishih strike to Sora. He knows what Sora will do to them. He is helping Sora kill them, in his own way. Sora is not doing for revenge, so Mickey is happy to help.

You just make me realize something. Xemnas uses the same point as you in the final confrontation.

Xemnas: Why do you hate me?
Riku: You mess up our worlds.
Xemnas: What choice do we have?
Sora: You're nobodies, you don't feel anything!
Xemnas: you don't miss a trick...

I do not know exactly how the affects us, but if Xemnas seems to think Sora is justified, why can't you?

I see now. But Mickey still helped throughout. The door was opened by him, etc. His style is to do things off side. How many times has he actually done a Sora?

Correct me, but did the org release the 1000 heartless?

They are not evil, no. They are not good either. They do not inherently deserve to die, but there is nothing wrong with destroying them if they do something that is harmful to you. This is because they have no emotions. No hearts. They are like robots. They are sentient, but in a different way to what you or I am. They can only think. They do not feel anything. Disappointment, anger, sadness, envy. All is meaningless to them.

As for the org having potential to get their hearts back, they could have been spared, but they all attacked Sora or did something against him. He then retaliated.

Something ironic is that only those who turned away from the org and did not seek hearts, got them.

Sora did not kill Axel.

He does not want anything. He is a nobody. The only thing he can remotely want is a heart. Not to help anyone else's hearts, but only his.

Also, there is no proof that he would share any of the hearts. It seems like if it were as simple as to just collect 13 hearts, they would be done. I do not think his construction would give every nobody back their hearts, but only the org own.

Wait, what? All heartless have nobodies, but strong heartless have people nobodies.
I not get what you are saying.

1. That time he was just testing Sora. A "if you loose, you die" test, but not his full power.

2. Running would mean he would live. Instead he traded it all for a half baked form of revenge. He did not even gain a proper heart.

No, he absorbed Kingdom hearts, but only got the emotions he remembered. He only got Rage, envy, suffering. He could not live after that. He was a big risk.

:gunwtf:
How can you think that? Where in a game (Clubhouse disney does not count) has he shown this? He never does any of that except at the very end of the game. Usually he does behind the scene stuff, showing up occasionally.

Better things to do? He had to protect Kairi? It has been a while since I saw this scene.

You said that if Riku and Mickey thought the org needed to be taken out, Sora would not have done it on his own. I replied by saying that they knew Xehanort's heartless was evil, but Sora did it on his own.

I like it. It makes a lot more sense than these possession theories.

As for Sra threatening him, when was this? (Again, a while since I saw the scene) I just want to know where the threatening comes from.

Edit: Holy cow crap!

I want a cheesy form! I wanna be more than a foot soldier waiting for a tank!

 

Wow. Just wow. That argument was so perfectly executed that even if I DIDN'T think that Sora was justified (I think he was) then I would have been convinced. That argument was perfect.

... except for one bit. Xemnas DID in fact plan to share Kingdom Hearts. In the cutscene where Saix shows up and asks if he can 'end this charade', Xemnas is staring at Kingdom Hearts. He says, while being completely alone on top of the castle; "Share your power with all Nobodies" to Kingdom Hearts. He clearly does. While I do think Sora was justified, Xemnas did in fact plan to share KH. However, Xemnas flat out didn't care about the suffering he was causing by releasing Heartless. Not the sort of regret that comes from emotions. The Org knew exactly what they were doing when they decided to randomly release Heartless. So instead of being nice, they were really just being selfish, despite plans to help all Nobodies. Because they were doing it at the expense of real people.