Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

Incomplete beings or not, the objective was pure, but the method was flawed.

Xemnas ruled with an iron fist. He could not be attacked until the others were dead. It is not really that much to think about though. Just play though KH2 again. At what point should Sora do something different? Exact answers please. Then I will try to counter it.

Another point, Com members are ignored. Sora wiped them out because they messed with his heart and altered his memories. Because of this, no one tries to defend them. But the KH2 org also does this. They attack his friends and kidnap Kairi so he will become enraged, and come to them, killing heartless all the while. See the similarities here?

Now, this post is short. I am sure someone will be able to do a short, intelligent answer to it.

 

Wow. Apparently, you've missed the point entirely too, especially mine, which I definitely have to respond to. While I have ICSP, most of the points we get through differ. I never said Sora was "ZHEEVILZ", nor that the Org. were "ZHEANGELZ". If that was the case, I would've defended Xaldin and Luxord to the point where I die. What I'm trying to get through, this is my objective, is that their actions aren't as horrible as the level you and others place them to be, and I find it unfair. That is my battle. Is more on the fact that their actions, minus like one with Beast, does not constitute for them all being annihilated when working towards a goal whose power they wanted was obviously for them to obtain hearts, and to be complete, while all the while, no harm ever came to anyone from it. And by harm, I mean, the KH, nothing life shattering to the worlds happened all the while with this essence, including when Xemnas even charged up, so what was the danger? If Xemnas had other plans that he kept to himself, then that is Xemnas's own, and doesn't go with the others, and he was the one that needed to be destroyed. I'm sure he doesn't share alot of information as we've seen, even with his old research partners, which in turn, made the Org. he ruled over oblivious. They weren't killing people, you don't see them killing them in the game, you don't see any signs of killings, the characters themselves never mention that they were killing said people, and therefore, they were not. If that was the case, people playing the game would've been repulsed, and the Org. perhaps wouldn't be as popular. Your own thoughts about the loss of a heart and the way you view it (which we've all heard) does not mean it goes with the game canon or its view.

Nomura seems to work throughout the games for Nobodies to be nonexistant, refused by light and darkness, and incomplete beings without hearts to be pitied or at least understood to the audience, or else those KH2 Novels wouldn't have driven that point home even in greater depth to the point fans are swayed. "Killing" humans were to defeat his point completely.

Back to the point, the hearts came from the already swarm of Heartlesss themselves, which Sora constantly kills, not from any humans on the said places. In fact, as Sora kept destroying Heartless, said Heartless kept depleting, which is good for the environment, isn't it? Anything wrong there?

They were having the help of Roxas, but as we all know, he had left, trapped by Diz, and ripped off of his memories. Thus, now Sora was the chance for them to get their main objective. I would've thought you'd gotten this, because it is mention in the Novel translations I even posted, and the game, which I hope I don't need to point out. Why do you think they were trying to get Roxas back? (though I do believe they were also giving him a chance as to not mark him a traitor just yet amongst that, which I posted examples of with my post above yours).

About the Nomura point, how does that make sense? If they didn't know they couldn't go back to their original selves, why couldn't they think the only choice left was to get hearts, and to become their own Somebodies?

And while Saïx did prove the Org. could have called Heartless around, and summoned them (because is been said that they go with who's the strongest), it does not mean that they were responsible for the Heartless that were attracted to the Keyblade and kept popping out. It is doubtful they would do menial work and simply sent Heartless when the creatures naturally appear to Sora effortlessly. They did not want MORE Heartless, what they wanted is less, because the more that were destroyed, the more hearts that were freed. Is blatantly contradicting because Heartless that are existing were plentiful enough to get the work done, as everyone playing the game could see. Point in fact, they weren't creating more Heartless, the Emblem Heartles themselves were already in existence too (excluding the fact that the respective members used three. THREE, which were killed after and didn't cause any enormous damage, if not, more of a side distraction, and is questionable whether on those three were created by them), which makes the rest of your words moot after, including screwing "tons of places", which again, is overexaggerating their actions to appeal of the eviler kind. The six disciples got into the situation first, yes, but as said, the Org. weren't killing, nor creating MORE Heartless. As for other finding ways to work, perhaps they couldn't find another. This is research, they get a hypothesis, see if it works, and if it can be successful by simply collecting Heartless' hearts, as well as getting the power to get their own hearts with a faux KH, why not go for it? The more they spend on it when they already hit a discovery, the more time is wasted.

They were determine to see it done, because they couldn't feel anything else on that matter at hand either. I'm sure if they had hearts, they will think twice before coming to a decision such as that, unless they were some type of street gang. They didn't have hearts as they were, being Nobodies, and even then, it's been proven, and something that you didn't disagree with, that they weren't fond of the idea of the decision on Roxas. Demyx got remedial tasks because other than the fact that he didn't want to do missions, he perhaps couldn't handle the bigger ones.

They weren't "killing" (the game does not follow your view on heart loss, or else, actions and characters themselves would've revealed otherwise), they weren't making more Heartless, or else they would've been speaking on the matter their own selves instead of other ones, their goal of KH was nothing wrong to go all the way to the point they had gone to (just to repeat, the game never gave an exact explanation to what was so horrible, if at all, in the plot, in the characters, or in official information, and this is fact. You never countered this) and their actions (which weren't even that bad if you look at it) aren't on the top of the awful pedestal you put them in to make Sora appear more justified than he is meant to be, or even is. Both sides were wrong at least in one account.

In my opinion, and if the plot was any different, there was a hole for a type of agreement in there, but that didn't happen, and we have to take it as it is as that is the game (which also in my opinion, was poorly plotted than the last two). I stand on the fact that I don't agree with the badness you're putting the Org.'s methods in, and that's where it will remain forever until any other real sources say me wrong (and if they do, then I know I was wrong, and take the fact right in. I mean, I'm even convinced that 358/2 Days will give more answers and finally tell me properly what were their true workings, which I'm seriously looking for), not others' views. I have told you why I think this above, and since I won't change my mind...then...I don't know who you're trying to convince, because I'm really done after this one, and yes, this time it would be pulled through ^^;. I just needed you to know where my argument stands since you've seem to gotten your interpretation wrong.

 

I just had a though. You said that they never tried to kill someone. Only ever tried to rob people of hearts. What about GOOFY! He had a rock smashed over his head. Not a heartless rock, or a nobody rock, but a genuine, geological rock. A rock capable of killing someone. Not heart stealing rock. A rock that would rip Goofy's soul and heart from his body, if it hit a few inches left, or right. That really was the turning point. Sora was not happy about this. Even if Goofy survived, he knew they would do this again. Also, where did the new heartless come from? The org using hearts to make more heartless. Sora was not happy about any of the stuff the org did. So when he learns that the org is stealing hearts he freed, he is irritated, especially considering that he has no idea what is happening to them. All this does not go down too well with the releasing of the thousand heartless, and the attack on the king. (which Goofy blocked)

Another point I am trying to make is that to Sora, the goal of the nobodies matters little. They are using the same tactics as the bad guys he fought before. This means to Sora that there is no reason to treat them differently.

But people do not need to be good to be loved. The org can still be pitied, even if they are killing humans, hell Repliku is pitied, and he tried to kill one of the most loved guy of all, Riku. And I doubt Nomura considers the Org's fanbase more important than Sora's. He would not have Sora killing nobodies for no reason what-so-ever.

Yes, the org is reintroducing heartless. Also, there is an infinite amount of darkness, so if the org keeps summoning heartless, yes, there will problems. They are hurrying up the flow of heartless. Also the org is not doing the heartless destroying, Sora is. So for whatever reason, Sora is allowed to take a break, right? So he tries to. The org kidnap his friends, and send minions against him. He is forced to fight, driven along like a mule. At some point the mule decides to buck. The org led him on to killing them, like the cast of castle Oblivion. Kidnapping his girlfriend is asking for trouble. Dropping a rock on his friend's head is asking for trouble. Appearing in front of him and battling him is asking for trouble. Turning a friend into a zombie is asking for trouble. They are actively asking for trouble. They got trouble.

Just a thought, but if you remember correctly, Sora and Riku did not actively try to kill Xemnas. They were going to leave him be, but he stopped them escaping.

They wanted Roxas back for a co-operative keyblader. The thing is, they then tried to kill him after realizing that he had been robbed of his memories. I do not like the things DiZ did to him either. But there is no reason for them to try to kill Roxas. This is one of the reasons the org never appealed to me. (Apart from Xemnas' wacky lines. I love those strange words!) Anyway, I searched back, I saw no reason why we are on the topic of Roxas. So how about we end this area?

While the end may be noble, I cannot justify the means. There was no need to attack Sora outside the train station, nor kidnap Kairi. Sora was fighting anyway, albeit reluctantly.

While all of this may be fine (not saying it is) the attacking of Sora with nobodies is not needed. Also at the end, why kill Sora off? They could have just told him to leave. (admittedly he may have stayed, but they could have made the effort to ask)

Also I consider making a massive Dragon heartless/nobody "messing up our worlds" right? Releasing the thousand heartless is another. Port Royal for more. Sure they were able to handle it, but the thing is, the org had no right to do any of that.

True. Fine. They were heartless with Roxas. (That still does not change my opinion of them)

Well apart from my own views about the moon, there was nothing wrong with the moon (plot wise). One problem with the moon would be that the org had a "okay be he has done his job, kill him" mentality. If Xemnas had that power behind him, Sora would have been killed. (Or something bad at least) The thing is, Sora is never told that the org just wants their hearts back, until they agree "okay, let's kill him" Also he is manipulated like in CoM. He is strung along, being fed anger from the org about them attacking his friends. When he catches up with them, he stops them doing it again. Maybe I am putting their attack out of proportion. But as can be seen above, you feel Numora always has a reason. If Numora feels that the Org's bad deeds are enough for a game, I consider the pedestal size fine.

Ah, so we have finally hit the crossroads aye? I think that the Org's deeds warranted Sora to kill them. You do not. We both seem to have run out of ammo on this front, and we are left with merely fortresses. My fortress cannot break yours, and vice versa.

Wait, I still have one last bullet. I may as well shoot it.

Where should Sora have changed what he did? Devise a scenario taking his emotions into account.

There, now we both lack ammo. Heh.

Farewell. After you answer this thread, I feel the fight is over. The only bits of new material that came up was the attack on Mickey. (and goofy blocking)

May we meet again... In the next thread...

 

I was thinking the very same thing.The organisation were merely utilising heartless to create kingdom hearts.I feel that marluxia and the people trying to control or destroy sora deserved it but the organisation itself no.

 

Wow... that entire post pretty much derailed any arguement you could come up with... and the paragraph I quoted is all that needs to be said to win this arguement.

I guess it was a good thing I quit when I debated against *TwilightNight*...

But... I think its time for me to prove the Org was in fact the good guys... and countering Pika_power's post is a great place to start.

*GOES INTO FINAL FORM!* Playtime has ended...

Your going to justify Sora commiting genocide over a rock hitting Goofy... I don't even want to go there...
*Facepalm*

The ends do justify the means. Thier goal doesn't benefit excusivly OrgXIII, as Xemnas said he wanted to kingdom hearts to help ALL nobodies. Nor does it just benefit all the nobodies. As exterminating mass droves of heartless will benefit all people... whole people.

If that means Sora has no reason to treat them differently, then Sora is nothing more than a bigot.

I do pity Org XIII. Thier primary objective was good.

*SPOILERS TO NUMEROUS GAMES* Highlight below...
He did have Sora killing nobodies for no reason. There are plenty of games where the hero truly is a good guy, yet somehow he ruins something good.

Kinda like in FFT you spent the entire game helping a psychopath who wins the game and is called a hero, in FFTA had you destroy a world of goodness because your hero didn't like it, in Brave Fencer Musashi you spent 95% of the game summoning a Demon and 5% killing it so you can prove how strong you are, Armored Core 1 had you put an end to world peace as a primary objective, Warcraft III has you commit genocide even when your the heroes (a mission called "The Culling). /spoilers

I already mentioned, that good writing can skew your perspective of right and wrong, look at The Great Gatsby.

You don't get it do you... Axel not the Org Kindapped his friend. Also, after Sora rescued both Kairi, and Riku, he opts to keep killing nobodies.

Sending minions to him was the most efficient way to eliminate the heartless. Any other method used may have encouraged heartless growth, or destroyed hearts if they did it themselves (look at the Xigbar to the rescue scene)

I dont see how a rock could be directly blamed on OrgXIII... at worst its probably an accident.

You made no points.

*C-c-c-combo Breaker!*
After Riku returned to his normal form, they kept moving forward. They could have went back home at this point.

There was no need to attack Sora outside the train station, nor kidnap Kairi. Sora was fighting anyway, albeit reluctantly.[/quote] *rolls eyes*
Once again... they were attacked by rogue nobodies whom simply wanted to die...

Also, Kairi was rescued from Axel... not kidnapped. Axel would have probably done bad things to her, Saix and the rest of the Org simply kept her. Protecting her from Axel. Sora should have thanked them.

Also... Sora enjoys being the keyblade master. Maybe you missed all the lines where Sora was all "Yay! I get to see Santa!" and "Heartless," pumps fist "Looks like I got here just in time!" and who could forget... "Anyone from the Organization want to be next!" *Stomps feet and looks around*

There was nothing reluctant about Sora killing heartless until he realized it was helping Org XIII. I dont know why.

The heartless were summoned, not created. The only one that was mentioned as being made was the Dragon, and the timeline is not given. Meaning it could have been there for years. Remember, it came out of a buried mountain.

Also... thousands of heartless were not released, they were summoned. They were probably hurting other people until OrgXIII called them to fight Sora. Since... thats all heartless do.

I dont know if I can break your fortress... but I will keep trying.

To counter your last shot... Sora should have asked Saix in Twilight Town. When Saix expressed concern for him.

I still got plenty of ammo... and a full drive gauge for my final form...

See you later...

____________________________________​

Ok... now for my next trick...

Org XIII was creating hearts the before KH1... not evil hearts, not psuedo hearts, but actual hearts.

I have plenty of info to back up this claim. Wanna try?

 

Well I think he was becuase they were gathering the hearts of all the heartless's that he killed and using them for their own good. they were just trying to play him off the whole time, plus most of them attacked him first and he fended them off in a self defence

 

he should ave just killed xemnas, saix, zeldin,mal-something-or-other, lax-somethang-or-other, and...that's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Oh, I haven't ran out of ammo, I do have enough left, I just decided not to use it and shoot anymore, because there's been no point to it, and is just wasting bullets that keep hitting a strong shield, and I'm sure is the same for the opposing side. After twenty-three pages of constant debating and repeating ourselves, we'll never reach a exact end, and nobody is convincing anybody else (though some have been swayed a little), so is better to end my cycle there.

Though I hope you are aware that the Goofy thing is really out there for a example, especially as that was a stray rock, he didn't really die, and it was all done on purpose for the LULZ. But, I'll leave it.

I would, if I didn't say that was my last debated post here, and it is. I'll remain with it this time, especially since it wasn't directed at you precisely. Though you best be prepared for a fanfic if I was continuing, because that's exactly how the quantity is going to end up if I write said scenario since it bothers me when I don't describe things well.

Alas, I would bid my last song *melody of the Star Spangled Banner starts playing*. I wish you good luck, ICSP, as you are willing to continue with Pika_Power (or anyone else), and may your running battle be strong. Of course, I will be watching, but the thread for me is over with, so...so...*stops Star Spangled Banner record and throws it out the window* It was getting annoying -_- . Anyway, so...let your fine strong will go on, soldier *salutes, only to get shot and booed for lame humor*.

Other than the fact that that sucked, in all seriousness, it was a nice debate xP. Let's see how much is left for the thread to keep running.

 

too long to read.....what i think youre saying...ur half and half!!!!!! right?!?!

 

I wish she was still debating against you instead of the one's who want to justify Sora. :huh:

Keep doing that and you'll force me to go Full Synchro all over your...:sly:

Okay, I wasn't going to say anything, but this is the only time I'm agreeing with ICSP and *TwilightNight*. If you watch that scene again, the rock hit Goofy because he was trying to save the King. And even so, the rock wasn't even purposefully thrown at them. It was some blast debris when the Surveillence Robot Heartless was firing at a Dusk. It wasn't intentional at all.

Let me bring in Xemnas again:

In that entire rant, I don't see him saying "ALL" Nobodies, do you? The "we" he's referring to is him and his Kingdom Hearts, NOT the Nobodies. He said he can't be complete without it and vice versa. And I'd rather not waste my Photobucket account to screencap his entire speech, so unless you've got a specific scene where Xemnas himself (not any of the other Org members) says that he was planning to use KH's power for ALL Nobodies like you keep saying, that argument just got "Obliterated."

Saix is a bully and you don't see me complaining...oh wait.

Okay. I'll admit their primary objective deserved merit. They just went around the wrong way of implementing it. That's the main argument right there. There had to be another way for them to accomplish the same goal without disrupting the natural world order. But don't ask me what it is.

That's because the only enemy they have left to worry about was Xemnas. There was nothing stopping him from creating a new Organization and putting the Keyblade wielders through utter chaos all over again. They were tired. They didn't want to fight anymore, but no one else would've done the task. If they had just left Xemnas alone, everything that they accomplished would've been for naught. They wanted to go home so Riku could snap incriminating photos of Sora and Kairi making out. They just wanted the whole deal over and done with so they wouldn't have to worry about the Nobodies causing more chaos throughout the worlds. So, that's what they did.

Nuh-uh. Xigbar wasn't rescuing Sora. In fact, he wouldn't have had to if Saix hadn't summoned them in the first place. Xigbar only destroyed all the Heartless because it was obvious Sora wasn't going to attack them. And before you get into the whole "Sora stupidly got distracted by Kairi" schpeal, Sora had managed to get out from underneath the Heartless. And what's the next thing he sees? Kairi wielding a Keyblade alongside Xehanort's Heartless. Now if you saw your girlfriend fighting alongside the main boss you defeated back in KH1, wouldn't you hesitate and wonder what the heck was going on?

Also, Saix had just insulted Sora. ("She doesn't need you.") Of course Sora wouldn't have been in the mood to help them out anymore.

Already dealt with above.

Um...no. I thought someone already stated that the only rogue Nobodies at the point of the train station are Axel and Namine. Everyone else was still under the Org's orders.

No. If they were rescuing her, they should've brought Kairi directly to Sora instead of keeping her locked up like the stereotypical princess in distress. In fact, Axel apologized for kidnapping Kairi, right before Saix interrupted him. And then Sora got on his knees and asked Saix to "please" take him to her. If they were really "protecting" her, they would've granted Sora his request. It wasn't unreasonable.

Ooh. Quotes. Just like how I love bringing in the bully point, you can't seem to stop using that last quote as the Org's justification for what they do. Not to mention...

Like Repliku said, he was being toyed with and treated as nothing more than a pawn. If they had any respect for him at all, they'd have at least helped him out instead of remaining mysterious and distant like a giant emo club for men. But, of course, they thought of themselves high and mighty over the Keyblade master. Why else would they stay quiet about their real objective?

Wrong.

From that quote, it can be assumed that the dragon didn't become a Heartless until after Shan-Yu. If it happened before, it would've shown up during the avalanche fight. I mean, come on. You'd think a hibernating dragon probably would get woken up from a firecracker causing an avalanche. :huh:

If that were true, they should've just shoved every single Heartless they could find onto only one world and lead Sora there to take them all on...oh wait, that's exactly what they've been doing. :sideways:

You mean right after Saix attacked a bunch of kids? [sarcasm]Yeah, Sora was in a real mood to ask questions after that. [/sarcasm] Seifer was a pushover, but that was it. Saix didn't need to humiliate them by sending the Dusks at them. Saix abused his powers. He could've just left to search for Axel elsewhere instead of sticking around and telling Sora that they "know very well how to injure a heart." If that didn't sound like a side threat, then...

Yeah, well I'm getting tired of playing defense at the moment. I think Pika_Power and Repliku have more than enough power to take you on with no problem. In my case, I'm wasting time that I could be using to finish my fanfics.

So, until I find any gaping contradictions again, this is me...

LOGGING OUT

 

If Org XIII's plan works, more lives would have been saved than lives they threatened.

They are emotionless, so simple math makes them the good guys, and Sora who indirectly decided to kill millions of people by sparing droves of heartless, is a bad guy.

 

You have nothing at all to back up that statement. And I think I'm kind of worn out of this debate because really in the end it comes down to a matter of opinion and we keep going around and around. If you see the Org as heroes, you do. I just am not seeing it but ah well. I have to say it's been fun debating this but I think it's kind of worn out any real interest to continue it since the points have been exhausted and anything that could be brought up to debate and tear apart, we've all done rather excellently. =:)

So I think I'll pay attention here but there's just nothing more really I can say without repeating myself and I don't need to keep doing that. Especially since I love to write essays.

 

Indeed... but I am still waiting for you to justify how killing heartless is a bad thing.

That is afterall thier primary objective.

 

I use the exact same defense you use.

You say the org had no choice but to act on gaining hearts, for that is their only desire. I disagree, as in CoM the things Marly did had nothing to do with gathering hearts, they wanted to control Sora to overthrow the org, to gain power.

I say Sora had no choice but to follow his heart. The org gave him lots of "we are evil, we are attacking you and your friends" messages. He did not know their aim. He did what he did to protect his friends. (Do not use that Demyx line. Sora is not a princess of heart, he has a bit of darkness inside him) He thought that to protect his friends, he needed to kill the org. Understandably as well. The org never tried another solution.

Also, where did Xemnas say to KH that he would share hearts with all nobodies?

Sora and Riku could not let the org win. The org "messed up their worlds" Xemnas counters with the words "what choice did we have?" Riku then goes off topic. But the counter to that is "what choice did Sora have?" Sora hunted the org, because if he left them alone, it would all come back to bite him in the butt.

Edit: Just saw the question above.

Nothing is wrong with killing heartless, but Sora only saw hearts vanishing after he released them. He was not happy about this, as they did not explain to him what was happening. Also, they attacked him.

And Sora cannot be a bad guy because of one thing: HE KEPT FIGHTING HEARTLESS, BECAUSE HE KNEW THE CONSEQUENCES IF HE DIDN'T!

The main points are that they defined themselves as bad guys to Sora. They send droves of heartless after him. They kidnapped his girl friend. They overall, were not a good bunch of people. This is the wall. You say that the ends justify the means, while I say they do not. At this point, it is a matter of opinion. Depending on how you answer this, I will leave or stay.

 

I addressed it. The point is that their mission was not wholesome in that they did not seem to want to go back to their 'somebodies' but instead to make themselves 'somebodies' as they were. They were breaking the system. They were going against the design of things and costing others their lives in the process.

Also, you didn't answer mine. Had they been out to just get their own Hearts...why didn't they just work on gathering the Heartless up since they could control some and move them to where they weren't attacking people instead of what their plans were? They had considerable power and yet they were letting -more- Heartless form and even creating them to use. Why didn't they just gather up the ones that had their Hearts potentially? Had they done this, no one could have or would have accused them of messing up worlds.

So, since they chose the tactics they did and were doing things to provoke and intimidate etc, they were attacked. They initiated this all and left Sora clueless. It is by their own doing they had to die. There is not a point where Sora is overjoyed. You keep saying he called them out, but in the end, anyone would have called them out after all they were doing and playing mysterious while messing with people. If their intents were so great, they could have been up front about it. Instead they played mind games.

 

DiZ attempted to program Sora to hate Org XIII. DiZ admits he used Sora for his own gain, but miscalculated a few things, and saw his plans not work out the way he wanted. These were his final confessions before *KABOOM* . So thats another reason why Sora was not justified.

Vengence does not justify murder.

 

Well, isn't this a dandy way to restart things all over xP. I mean, that is, if anyone replies *looks around*. Is this so you can continue the Why not Mickey? discussion you and Destiny's Force were having?

 

Yeah, I felt bad for thread jacking... so I brought the battle field back here... its like my "Memories Sky Scraper" if I was Xemnas.

 

lol, that's just hilarious. I'm just going to let that post go because I am cracking up at the last 3 posts combined. Good stuff.

 

This makes sense, but Yen Sid also made the Org. seem bad to Sora.