Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

Okay, the who tearing up your post thing got kind of boring, so instead I will counter with single paragraphs.

Everything was Xemnas' plan. Without Xemnas, the org would be trapped forever. Xemans is the drving force.

Not to mention that however evil Xemnas was, however ill he treated the nobodies, they were all ready to die for him at a moment's notice.

So ideally, yeah. Sora would go and kill Xemnas, then leave the org to collect hearts. (I still say they were used up) The catch is, he never gets the chance. Xemnas hides away, sending others to fight for him. It is sad, but true.

New scenario: What would you do? The org laughs at you, and teleports away when you try to chat. You cannot let Xemnas have such power, for he is not trusted enough to have it. You need to just kill Xemnas, according to you. He hides in his castle, and in the meantime, he is attacking your friends.

Back to the idea of the hearts being used up. The hearts are being shed because of DiZ's machine, not because of anything else. The heats are absorbed. If it is a recharge thing, the hearts would remain captive for all time. Xemnas would never let that power go.

I understand the org had a longing for hearts, but that does not justify their actions. Because they go out and attack Sora's friends, he has every right to follow his longing to protect his friends. He does this by annihilating the org.

Also, Sora could not handle the train station nobodies. IIRC, he ended up on his ass, with a circle of nobodies ready to own him. Mickey happened to be nearby to save Sora. If he was not then Sora would have been defeated.

 

Wow... I don't even need to answer your earlier post, since *TwilightNight* covered everything.

Vageta, what des the scouter say about *TwilightNight*'s power level?

Vageta's answer...

But Sora was the allstar of the game. Its like saying, "Hey... didn't Serge Tankian have a band with him when he came out with his own solo career?" "Yeah... but did they do anything?" "No... not really."

Bottom line... the other characters didnt matter. Sora was "The Key of Destiny."

But the Org brought them too him. And, if Sora had to hunt them down individually, the heartless would have probably killed more people than they already did. Org XIII was actually making his job easier. They wanted him to killl heartless.

Riku and Kairi did nothing.

Also, he defeated Xemnas by himself (Memories Skyscraper). That is so much bigger than defeating Saix.

Yes... as pointed above, Xemnas. Luxord does count. Also there Dark Side, Twilight Thorne (Roxas is part of Sora), Sephiroth (sort of), 1000 heartless (listed as a boss), and Roxas, Dark Riku, Ansem the Heartless and still others.

Also... its not cannon that Sora cannot drive without Donald or Goofy... its only an in game thing. He went into Valor Form in a cutscene, and had a conversation with Goofy while still in Valor.



Also... your argueing that he is justified in deafeating Org XIII, not destroying them, there is a difference.


Pike_power: I was dared to defend Marluxia... well you defended him well enough yourself. He was going against Xemnas, so everything he did was justified to defeat him. You even said Xemnas was Hitler, so Marluxia was a resistance leader. *BOOM SHAKALAKA!*

Also, I would like to point out to whomever compared hearts to candy... having a heart is a right to all sentient being. Denying a right to a sentient being is a crime. A violation of their civil liberties.

 

But if the sentient being decided to cut out their hearts, surely the public, or Sora does not need to pay for a new one?

As for Marluxia, fine he was a resistance. The only thing is, he decided to use terrorist tactics. AGAINST OTHER RESISTANCE FIGHTERS! Besides, he just wanted Xemnas' spot. More like a rival candidate for president assassinating the other one if you ask me.

 

Yeah... but Sora isn't paying for anything is he? He's only doing a job he would do anyways. Also, they are only restoring the hearts they lost.

And they are sharing with ALL nobodies as Xemnas pointed out. So, everyone that could get thier hearts restored, would have, if DiZ didnt blow it up, and Sora didnt kill them all.

They were doing something noble, and Sora had to go and destroy it.

Many resistance fighters use terrorist tactics, and are called heroes. Also, we do not know what Marluxia's objective was. It was most likely power, but we do not know for sure.

Also... what terrorist tactic did Marluxia use? Screwing up someones memories? Sora was happier with his fake memories, he even killed Larxene for telling him his memories were fake. The only reason he opted to get his real memories back, was because his owner, Namine, told him that was the right thing to do.

If Namine didn't suggest it, and he was still given the oportunity, he would have refused.

 

Here we go...

Dude. Keep using DBZ references and you'll be forcing me to use LittleKuriboh quotes. :sly: And it's VEGETA, not VAGETA.

Having a KH without Sora is like justifying the Org's actions. It's inconvenient, but it gets the plot moving. And how the heck does bringing some music guy I never heard of have anything to do with this argument? Not to mention I thought the "Key of Destiny" was Roxas.

Plus, remember you guys saying Sora was an idiot? He wouldn't have advanced very far in the storyline without the assistance of others. In fact, he probably would've been killed in front of the train station if Mickey hadn't shown up.

That's not the point. They knowingly created MORE Heartless for Sora to defeat. They didn't move the existing Heartless in front of Sora. It was their own creations they added to the mix giving Sora more work to do.

Did I say Kairi did anything? Other than fanservice, eye candy, panty shots, sensual poses, and fodder for the perverts out there (*coughVexencough*), she was pretty much useless. Riku, however, helped destroy (or considerably weaken) the Org members in CoM. He also helped rescue Namine, Kairi, Axel (thanks to *TwilightNight*'s new info) and Sora. So, Riku was still on his own adventure assisting Sora when he least expected it.

Pfft. Xemnas wasn't even really trying in that battle. Since this is at the end of the game and Xemnas never fought Sora (besides the first FM), he was probably "testing" Sora's power (as you have argued before). When he gauged Sora's power level (no DBZ pun intended), he decided to absorb KH for himself to take on everyone participating.

Again, "Destroy" and not "Defeat." And I was referring to KH2 only since that's where the Org is. Darkside doesn't count due to it happening before Sora met the Org. Roxas may be a part of Sora, but he still counted as an individual entity at the time. Sephiroth wasn't destroyed. The 1000 Heartless was the Org's idea. Roxas was defeated, but not destroyed. Same with Dark Riku. Xehanort's Heartless was in KH1, so he doesn't count. Not to mention he had Donald and Goofy to help finish him off.

That's because the cutscenes aren't FMVs. If they were, Sora'd probably be in his regular outfit. Heck, if you hack Final Form Sora vs. Final Xemnas, you'd end up with the CGI in his regular outfit anyway. In other words, the Drive Forms during cutscenes are a visual effect only.

Hey, get your own quote. :p

But seriously, I'm starting to think that we're bringing up the same arguments over and over again. There has to be some middle ground somewhere that we can all agree on. I also find it pretty convenient for your side to avoid quoting the undebatable topics (Saix/Seifer).

My argument: It all started back in front of the Twilight Town station. The Org attacked first. They're bullies who abuse their powers to manipulate events for their own personal gain.

Your argument: The only way to foil the Org's plan is to let the Heartless run amok.

My argument: Sora has no choice in the matter as the Keyblade is stuck with him whether he wants it or not.

Your argument: That's why Sora's not justified because he's doing something that he'd end up doing anyway.

My argument: They create their own artificial Heartless that wouldn't have existed otherwise and send it after Sora because the Org is too narrow-minded in finding another way.

Your argument: They're congregating Heartless into one area so Sora has an easier time finding them.

My argument: They're still adding to Sora's workload by adding their own Heartless and Nobodies to the mix.

Your argument: So you'd rather let the Heartless win over innocent people and the Nobodies?

My argument: I'd rather Sora have to fight the Heartless that are already there instead of the Org adding more problems and obstacles that Sora has no choice but to overcome.

Does that sum up that part of the debate so far?

____________

Let me respond to that with a Xemnas quote:

So let me ask, when exactly did he say that he would share it with all Nobodies? :huh: For all we know, he could be using the royal "we." And he was asking for power to kill those who opposed him.

You're freakin' kidding me, right? Larxene basically had Sora on the ropes. If Donald and Goofy hadn't come to the rescue, he'd have been charcoal. And Namine never told Sora it was the right thing to do. She gave him a choice.

Dude. By this point Sora's memories and thoughts were messed up. If no one told him that his memories were being tampered with, he'd have never known. Vexen tried telling him that, but it only succeeded in confusing Sora even more. In other words, Sora was no longer in his right mind, so most rational decisions are out the window.

 

The one in Ansem The Wise's study weren't the Org., except when they turned into Nobodies, and those were only six. And I already gave my opinion on this before, I don't need to start it with you too.

And remember, that he was alone in some battles as well. Sora is not weak, nor useless, nor inept, to his power or what he can do. While some of them do help, he doesn't really need his friends to help him out of a situation, unless it puts him in danger himself where he doesn't expect a attack or is in trouble, which in game play, is hard to guess because is you who's playing. If he could take care of Luxord and then Xemnas alone, then there's no doubt he couldn't take care of the rest one by one, except for Final Form Xemnas. He's not incapable of completing it on his own. Soem fans have even complained about Sora being overpowered in KH2.

Roxas (which qualifies as Seifer and gang, although not armed or skilled, and had to be saved) was attacked by Dusks as well for no other reason, and Axel appearedd right after doing the same thing Saïx had done to Sora: Compliment their fighting, and clapping. So, in that case, since Axel could control Dusks, do you think he will send them to attack his suppose friend? If so, why? I don't think Axel had a good reason to. The two scenes are paralleled, and all those ended with casual conversation like nothing happened.

After all, Dusks are not incapable of acting on their own, they can be controlled, but they can act on their own too. The whole scene doesn't make sense in actuality, because Saïx's character doesn't resolve to him using a bunch of wannabe street kids, especially on how he knew Sora was in Twilight Town in due time unless he can sense him, which I doubt. There's also no explaining how he could guess Sora will know since it isn't like he can retrace the wielder's steps and know where he is going, Sora might not even appear on that said spot for awhile, and I don't think Saïx would wait either. Vivi is also questionable, since the thing could've ran anywhere else, and unless Saïx told it to fetch Sora, I don't know how Saïx could've also predicted him coming down that path.

Either way, another good thing to point out in that scene, is Saïx at the time when he confronted Sora was calm, and even giving a few tips off, they were even discussing. That was another chance Sora could've taken to get some information since you were talking about chances before, but he was instead blabbing off.

I already stated my reasons on helping the Org. in other posts as well, among possible reasons why, so I don't need to repeat myself in this since is going to be the same response, so look for it. Sora only knew he was being used later in the game when Axel had revealed to him that the hearts the Heartless he killed are freed, go to the Org. What was the reason, then, other than meeting Saïx, perhaps Xemnas and Xigbar, that he had before all this? He barely even knew that the more Heartless he killed the more hearts were released to go to the heart shaped moon. The only connection he had to the Org. was the Dragon, and the Heartless Luxord summoned, and...Xaldin. Emblem Heartless are eveywhere due to the past, along with natural Heartless to fight, so I don't think those were completely brought upon him, but more on the fact that they were attracted to the Keyblade, yet either way, he seemed to take the "chaos" normally. Most of his fights (or "chaos") in KH2 were also the Disney villains, so the Org. had no fault in all that was happening to overwork him.

The load to "increase" were taken care of by Sora, and "the load" isn't that much either, maybe not at all, as some Heartless naturally pop out by themselves like usually in all the KH games, so the Org. didn't need to concern themselves with that fully, if even. Saïx told him to just keep killing Heartless, as they always come around Sora. The only times where I could think of the Org. giving him "more" work, was with Luxord and the Reaper Heartless, and the Dragon. Otherwise, nothing else. The rest of the time was spent, again, fighting Disney villains.

And Xaldin and Luxord were talked about, not to you, but once more, I don't see a need to go all over this again.

He was merely following orders, like all the rest did. The point is, while the Org. did a job on sending one of the members to do a specific mission, which is basically what they all do, so it wasn't like it was that "sacrificially evil" as you're trying to place it as (it was like the others, killed in the line of duty. They are Nobodies, not some kind of brotherly gang that feel for their members if they get killed. The Org. can't feel, so they go on with their daily lives). Fact is, Demyx didn't do anything so wrenching to have Sora bully him and egg him on. That isn't the Org.'s fault.

Even if Roxas wasn't destroyed, how could he be, since the fight was inside Sora, and Roxas was already fused with him? And that finishing slash blow looked lethal, though it wasn't like Roxas could "fade", and if he wasn't Roxas, it would've "destroyed" him. I still don't see the point on the "destroying" and "defeating", it still amounts to the same action on doing so in attacking. Even if you defeat somebody, severe wounds could kill him/her, and the defeat could end up being "destroy" in a lot of cases if it goes too far.Tthe difference is small, even tiny.

As said by ICSP, Sora managed to defeat Xemnas by himself, which is indeed, greater than Saïx. The fact is, Sora doesn't need Donald and Goofy, and that window of opportunity could be blocked, in which in turn, can knock out the two animals. Sora's not invincible, but he's no pushover (it's been said he's even really strong) that he couldn't handle anything by himself if the occasion calls for it in KH2, don't make him appear any weaker by him using the help of his friends to make it seem like the Org. were overworking him. The kid can take care of himself, especially on little Heartless and lower Nobodies, and other creatures of the sort, which has nothing to do with bosses or even as hard.

Fact is, if Jafar was on the ground, he still had the power to defeat it and the outcome will be the same.

The circumstances were still small, Heartless are everywhere, it wasn't like the worlds would implode, there wasn't any true difference, the only ones so far were the bigger Emblem Heartless, and Sora had to deal with that only...three times or so. You're making it look worse than it is, when in the honest truth, it isn't. It might've been selfish, but hearts were what they really all wanted in the end, they couldn't feel any emotion, they were incomplete, there were creations with a part of them missing, and they needed that again. If you were in their place, and had no feelings to hold you back such as regret, sadness, sympathy, or guilt, there's a sure chance you would've worked for it, unless you found something fishy and didn't like the sound of it. But you still came on board in the beginning for the goal either way, and knew how to achieve it.

It all falls in misunderstanding. And even then, nothing truly occurredn to stop the goal completely that they had been working on so far and perhaps for months spent on it...is not like all the worlds had suffered from Xaldin, Luxord, or Xigbar's Emblem Heartless or the members' actions, just the one the individual members appeared in. And in those times, it wasn't even impossible to reverse the situation. Jack Sparrow might have morphed skeletal, but he could turn back and knew how to (and did in the end), it was even used to his advantage as it saved him from Barbossa's gunshot, Xaldin was eradicated, all he acted on his own and was quite cruel, I never disagreed with that, and the Heartless dragon was taken care of in time.

Yes, Sora has destroyed a boss without assistance, including Xemnas, and Luxord (I don't see why he can't count), which were greater bosses. And Mickey only appears if it was by the player keeping on losing, not Sora's own...as in himself, we know he has to win the battle, but how, depends on the player. The only time in pure canon that Mickey appeared was in Twilight Town, and Sora had just woken up after a year of sleeping, it didn't take long for him to stretch his muscles and get back on track on his strength.

I never bothered because I thought I had your gender with your avatar and sigs, and I gues I was...wrong. I never read your stories either, so I guess that played a part.

Alright. Just don't expect me to reply after this post (and I won't, as much as it will kill me), because I have too much to do to take on you and Pika_Power (though I think we can come to a agreement now) at the same time, and it takes long to reply to posts as it is. I got into this because of answering a question, when I should've ignored it and left it to ICSP (tag teaming for the winzors!). The point is, I'm already getting tired of debating this (and here I thought the thread died) and I've been wasting most of the time here, when I know I have to do other things in my studies and wake up early (it's 3 o' clock in the morning here). I rather not get into another one now. Probably when I'm less busy we might continue, Destiny.

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I'll do the same, because it is getting tedious.

Despite this being Xemnas's plans, if he was taken out, the Org. wouldn't be trapped, but more like there was nothing they could do if all the events of what happened to their KH has been done (which it would've, because if they were after Xemnas, he would've used the power up either way and Diz's machine still would've been there). The rest didn't have the type of scientist brains to start over or the power to fix up KH or even make another one (I have no doubt it was Xemnas who put up the moon). They wouldn't be trapped, but more like disbanded (and I still don't think the hearts were used up either). Also, the other didn't die or fight for him, they chose to die for their goal and try to stop Sora from proceeding further on destroying it, otherwise, Saïx wouldn't have asked for permission from Xemnas himself if he had ordered it.

What would I do? I would scoff at them, and if I didn't like it, I wouldn't go and do the same to someone else. Sora didn't try to chat at that point, because Xemnas was talking, and they all laughed after, and left quickly. There wasn't a exact chance there, especially giving away information with Xemnas there, and I'm sure he would've disagreed. And Xemnas wasn't attacking Sora's friends, his friends just followed him.

Xemnas wouldn't have let that power go, true, but the fact remains that it didn't work out and he lost it due to Diz's machine. The hearts were absorbed, but it wasn't like they couldn't be freed either.

I know that it doesn't justify their actions completely (the fact that they can't feel just makes the fact that they can't see or perhaps care what they were doing, as they were just empty voids. I still think it was more on misunderstanding them), especially when a few acted for themselves, but the said actions weren't as horrible and bad as in the pedestal they are placed, is not like they worked to destroy a world or take over. Some of the actions were mostly simple, and could be taken care of.

As I said above, Sora had just woken up after a complete year of sleep, and he didn't have enough energy or had stretched his muscles to take care of the problem, which is why he collapsed. Later on, you could see, after working out, that he had no problem handling the Nobodies and even more of them than before.

Anyway, other than that, and the whole hearts and KH that we have contrasting views on, it seems there's nothing much that we could talk about anymore and we seem to agree in the end that it was mostly Xemnas (though the perspectives are just a little different). I don't really see a reason to go on when is just going to end up repeating ourselves again. I think we both had driven the point home, and we reached a conclusion together (all that's left is ICSP and Destiny's Force, lol xP. J/k).

So, truce?

 

a few points:

1. you never answered my question. I said what would you do to resolve the issue. The answer of "I would scoff at them, and if I didn't like it, I wouldn't go and do the same to someone else." is not satisfactory. For one, the sentence makes no sense, and two, it does not answer my question.

2. Axel sent Nobodies after his best friend, because he was ordered to. If I remember correctly, and understand you, the nobodies were ordered to take Roxas back with them. They stole photos, then tried to take Roxas. As for outside the train station, Sora was attacked, and left on his ass. Regardless of his physical stature, if Sora is left to die to the Nobodies, I think he will have an image of them being bad. (if they were rouge nobodies, they would not be concentrated in that area, attacking Sora. They are not heartless, they do not seek the keyblade)

3. Sora is attacked by nobodies. Whether he can handle it or not, have you ever thought that he might not appreciate being attacked left and right? He wakes up after a year, then gets attacked by nobodies. He would not be fighting them normally, they have no business attacking Sora. (if they are rouge, as he is the only one who can save them) The org also sends heartless after him. By the Demyx fight, he is rather fed up with being attacked, so he lashes out at Demyx. At that point in time, there was no reason to feel sorry for the org. To Sora, they were just beings lacking hearts, like heartless. By the time Sora understands the org, they have done too many harmful things to Sora for forgiveness. Even if Sora can beat the creatures that are sent after him, everyone around him still suffers from the trauma of Sora fighting heartless.

4. kidnapping Kairi. They do it to "fire Sora up" yet it also means that the fire in Sora is directed against them. They do nothing to try and make Sora help them. I can understand the desire for hearts, but if that is how they go about it, I think something is wrong with their method, and they need to try a different approach.

5. Like I said before, we agree that it was Xemnas' fault. But just because Hitler rallied the Germans up, it does not mean no one decided to fight the manipulated soldiers. Xemnas cowered away, leaving others to fight. As such, Sora only got a chance to finish it cleanly at the very end.

 

In KH and CoM and KH2, the characters, including the lead ones, made mistakes. Sora, Riku and Kairi are not -perfect- and no one else is either in the games. They are fallible.

However, the Org made a great many mistakes.

1. They were sadistic and selfish. - There can be NO doubt that Saix, Xemnas, Xaldin, Marluxia, Larxene, especially and others to varying degrees were sadistic. Saix says it all when he comments how they know how to hurt a heart. They not only knew. They did it.

2. If the Org is so justified, why did they NEVER tell Sora that they needed his help? Why did Roxas run off on them? If the Org wanted their Hearts back so much the 'normal way' that Nomura describes it, they were not showing it.
You brought up Nomura's declaration but I will say this. Nomura says this is what would happen to Nobodies that are killed normally. Did you ever think that perhaps this is -not- what Xemnas and the Org members wanted? The Nobodies did not just want their Hearts back perhaps. They were looking for a way to also maintain their new beings in states of power with their elements. Look at how Roxas didn't really want to go back to Sora and how he had his own life. Also, Xemnas had to know that his Heartless, therefore the body he resided in prior, had been destroyed by Riku in CoM. Zexion clearly stated Riku smells just like the Superior and this is because of the merge with Xehanort's Heartless. If they were so wanting to get their Heartless to their Pseudo KH, why the hell wasn't Xemnas more focused on Riku than Sora? There is a reason why he might not have been, but in seriousness, even if Xemnas got free of that form and didnt' want to go back, he was boned because he would have to get his Heart back somehow...or make a new one. I believe part of the Org's plan was not to just get their Hearts back but to use the pseudo-Kingdom Hearts to keep them as they were, give them new Hearts but with more power and making a new way for themselves rather than going to their 'Somebodies' which all of them were probably weaker prior. Otherwise, they could have just had Sora use the regular Kingdom Hearts to cure them because if their Hearts went there, they wouldn't have needed a pseudo KH or had to control Heartless or do everything they were. It does not seem that the members of the Org prior to becoming Nobodies were as powerful as after they became Nobodies. Also, Ansem the Wise was not as strong before he took up Darkness as a weapon.

It is stated Axel when he dies went back to his 'Somebody' and was returned. However, Axel was not in the spot for it, nor was there a reference that his Heart was actually in the pseudo-Kingdom Hearts that the Org had made. In the end, he probably if he did go back to his somebody isn't the same and may not even remember what happened to him, just as Roxas going back to Sora did not yield to Sora much. So, really, it seems the Org was up to a much more diabolical plan than just getting -their- Hearts back. There is something we are missing and I think it will be revealed in the upcoming games as to what Xemnas was truly doing. He had a plan to go against something perhaps.

Next, Demyx again...Demyx could have clearly ran away. He was not killed in cold blood. He drew his weapon and fought. Killing someone in cold blood means that you take them out without them having a chance to react. Demyx had opportunity to react, walk away, run, taunt, dark portal, whatever. Yes, Sora baiting him was not exactly right in my book but at the same time, Demyx was a Nobody. He could have used logic and laughed as others did and went on. He chose to fight. He made the choice. Whether I think in different circumstances he might have been alright and possibly redeemable, it wasn't another circumstance. He entered that fight fully aware of what was going on, as did Sora. That's the way it goes.

Now, onto Beast, a corrupted Heartless dragon Xigbar made, a Heartless Luxord made, the other things Xaldin did, and Saix controlling Heartless. - The Heartless do what? Take Hearts and make things worse. Beast did not have to be harmed at all. Xaldin was trying to make him a Heartless. That is declared clearly. You think he did this on his own? Heck no. He had orders to do it and agreed to them just as Xigbar did when he corrupted a dragon and Luxord did making a Heartless. The Heartless can't be formed without sacrifice of life. That is how it works. So if the Nobodies wanted to help themselves, why in the heck are they making 1. more heartless and 2. more Nobodies?

Really, I can empathize with the Org, or at least a few members that merely wanted their Hearts back and all, but they went about things horribly to get something as simple as that. Sora wasn't entirely innocent and made some mistakes, sure, but the Org could have told him things straight up and who knows, I bet since he tries to talk villains out of crap all the time, he would have helped. The Nobodies then could have rounded up Heartless and he could have killed them, they could have gotten their Hearts back and blammo, the whole thing would have been done and over. But the Org did not do this. Instead they schemed and used him like a tool that was expendable. We still do not know for sure why Roxas ran off from them but it is clear that Roxas did not like any of them perhaps save Axel and Axel didn't like any of them but Roxas.

It just in closing comes down to the Org started the whole scenario, caused fights, skirmishes, etc that did not need to happen in the first place if they were doing something as simple and wholesome as just wanting their original Hearts back. To me it seems more like they wanted to craft Hearts out of what they stole instead from others who had died because the Heartless had to be taking the lives of other people in the present because of the Org's plans. There's just enough evidence to say they were up to something more dire. If they were not, they would have asked for help. They knew what they were doing was not going to get the favor of someone with a conscience. They knew they'd have to manipulate to get it done and they did.

 

In regards to your idea to Sora HELPING them, do you think ANY of the characters would've allowed this. I mean, if Mickey, Yen Sid, or Ansem the Wise got wind of this, who KNOWS what steps they would've taken to stop Sora from helping the Org.

 

Wow. Repliku finally showed up. He pretty much covered most of the points out there, so I'm going to go ahead and work on my stories some more. This was fun, I'll be back if I'm needed. And *TwilightNight*, I only went and fought you because Pika_Power wasn't online. I'll quietly go back and hide in the light until I'm summoned again...

*fades into light*

 

Anyway, before all this continues, I've...FOUND THE KH2 NOVELS TRANSLATIONS AFTER SEARCHING! They're split between people, but my favorite has to be turkish_delight's translation, since she understands the Japanese and the meaning of their language more. I can't wait to read more from her. I have to leave pretty quick to take...the exam o.o, so I'll just post this and go. Anyway, here they go (it seems most of us were wrong in a few accounts):

turkish_delight
http://turkish-delight.livejournal.com/275153.html#cutid1
http://turkish-delight.livejournal.com/277201.html?#cutid1
http://turkish-delight.livejournal.com/282032.html?#cutid1
http://turkish-delight.livejournal.com/284521.html#cutid1

I have to agree with people there), it seems Roxas and Axel were kind of pals with Demyx xP. And Axel and Roxas friendship goes deeper, seems to be more like family and brotherly love.

Other Translations (from members vulchu and linnen):
http://vulchu.livejournal.com/236081.html
http://vulchu.livejournal.com/235591.html
http://linnen.livejournal.com/640432.html (Demyx is in here)
http://linnen.livejournal.com/641608.html (Riku and Saïx interaction, Axel gets pwned by Saïx)
http://linnen.livejournal.com/642784.html
- Friend's Cut: (Extra) http://linnen.livejournal.com/639319.html#cutid1 (ZOMG!, Demyx ad Xigbar Friendship thing o.O. Man, in the novels, the Org. are actually normally cool)

Should I make a thread for it so all those who haven't read it has the chance to?

 

i'm half and half
i think it was good for pplz 2 stop suffering....i mean by losing loved ones, their homes etc, etc
but i was like some said.......they only wanted 2 be whole, or have a heart!!!!!!!
in my book that's rong and unrong-2 have a heart or not!!!!!!!!
would u like 2 have a heart or not!!!!
i would like 2 now!!!!!!

 

If the novel that was translated there is any indication to being Canon, it does touch on what I mean about they wanted Hearts but also to maintain their existences as they were, which explains things.

That is more proof to show the point I was making.

Here's another line that shows it when Namine and Riku and Axel are out at the front gate while Roxas is inside the mansion.

This is after Axel had orders to kill Roxas if he did not remember and would not come back. Now the Org did want Roxas back but if he wouldn't return, he was to be killed. Why would they kill one of their own that could go back to his Somebody? If this was the Org's goal, they should have been glad he'd be gone. In the end, they would still use Sora any way. So why wouldn't they just talk to Sora? Apparently, also Roxas appeared to not be told much about the Org's plans either, which is mentioned in the book, so it seems I was right about that if again, it is to be regarded as canon.

Now again, why would the Org not want to return? It's because they give up their consciousness to the Hearted person. They had made new identities for themselves and lives. So it's very possible that the Org wanted to maintain their consciousness and new identities rather than just going back to their Hearts and lives, identities they had prior. It does make things more of a difficult situation, doesn't it? They therefore weren't standing on such innocent grounds as some of you are trying to say. If they were, why would they be mad at Roxas/Sora all through KH2?

And again, they just let Riku go. I would have been more watching him as well but they just condemned him to Darkness pretty much and wrote him off and scoffed him. The whole thing just sounds to me like the Org's intentions were to keep their own consciousnesses and not to just become whole again as keeps being mentioned or they would have devised a plan that would have helped them to do so without causing so much pain and destruction. Anyone would have empathized with them had they had this goal. So in essence only 3 of the Nobodies would go back to how they were supposed to be which is Axel, Roxas and Namine, who all went against the Org's plans. Yet all three had in some way wanted to keep their new identities but realized the folly of it. It was wrong to do that and go through with the plans Xemnas and the Org had. Why? They did exactly what Nomura's statement was.

So, I think really we need to find out more about what the Org truly was up to in all aspects and start accepting it wasn't as wholesome as some of you depict. They wanted their Hearts back but not in a good way. This is why they would not -ask- for help, let Roxas who was a member of them know the plans, and certainly wouldn't tell Sora. They weren't good guys. I still feel bad for them, sure, but at the same time they were doing wrong and they knew it. It made a great cost on other lives that had no knowledge of them even. Sora did what he had to and had no choice but to. They made the stakes.

 

Its time to play my wild card...

The Org are the good guys. Anyone who tries to stop them is in fact evil. Everything they did was for the greater good!

They, like Sora, did make mistakes, but thier primary objective was for the greater good of all life. Not just nobodies, everyone.

Any one like to take down this arguement?

 

Just to say, ICSP, isn't it cool that the way you write your fic with the Org. members is the same with the novels? (the seats and numbers :D)

You seemed to miss all the small facts there, Repliku, you're just simply pointing out all the bad points. My whole argument in that the Org. were misunderstood by Sora and the rest, and they are. Throughout the novel, it is said that their goal was to obtain their hearts, their main objective, which I said was all they working towards to. The Emblem Heartless, just to add, were done way before the Org. (except for the six disciples in the group), and they appear everywhere regardless as they had spreaded around all worlds, if anything, Xigbar, Xaldin, and Luxord simply used one of them, not create one. The machine that creates them is gone (is it? I never truly found out in KH1...), doesn't mean the Emblem Heartless aren't still around. Also, there's no proof that they used humans for their work (and is in fact stated in the Ansem Reports, unless I missed it, that they came to use themselves as experiments). And in other information that I now found out, the Emblems were created by machines that reproduce (keyword here) the process of a heart being consumed by darkness. Other facts is that the disicples were discovering the Heartless and their nature. They constructed a large factory that could reproduce the creation of Heartless, thus making Emblem Heartless.

Not that they have to take one from a human to make them.

The only thing bad that happend is that the Heartless began to come out after that. But before you argue about the first six, I will post my thoughts back on it that I wrote before:

There isn't just "evil" and good". You have to look in between the lines, and see it form their perspective if you care about why characters do what they do, even for "villains". Axel had the pleasure of this development, and so did Naminé and Roxas, so we feel for them.

Back to the Nobodies, they don't have hearts, they can't cry, they can't feel sad for Roxas or feel guilt, they just needed to complete what they wanted, is not like they were exactly human....if they had hearts, and were simply being cold and cruel to be that way with that organ in there beating and finding no sympathy, then we can truly say that they are just plain evil. Other than Axel, Naminé, and Demyx (who was more softer than the rest, while the other two before had their reasons for questioning their existences because of what they went through. The others didn't have the same self-discovery), the rest never contemplated because they all strived on the thought that they can't feel. If anything, their tragic characters, period.

And despite that, I still don't find what was overly wrong with the Kingdom Hearts they were making, it wasn't exactly dangerous, and other then to obtain hearts and create a world, nothing there suggest they will use it, concerning their discussions, for anything else. Diz, nor Yensid, nor Mickey, even truly explain what is it that is so wrong about them doing so. All we get from Riku is "messing up our worlds", which can count for the three Emblem Heartless that were summoned. Point to me, please, especifically, where in the game or information or the characters, does it say what's wrong with their Kingdom Hearts (which isn't even the real one) and the need to be stopped for?

So, other than Xemnas, it still doesn't justfify the reason why Sora had to go all the way and destroy them all, along with KH, when the game doesn't explicitly state the reasons why. He heard from Phil that Demyx attacked him, but as you can see if you read, that wasn't really the case, and it was more a mistake, then anything. Not to mention, Diz appears biased, redeeming in the end or not, he didn't say his exact reasons, except I can guess is to stop Xemnas and his former reaseracher from going any farther in their reasearch. But again, where does it say anything about their KH?

The Org. fought and worked for that goal, and now I figured out that the Org. weren't even concentrating Heartless on Sora at all, but in fact, just letting him kill them like he did every time, not make more (which would explain Saïx's "Just keep killing Heartless"). Saïx only summoned the Dusks, and the only time, as I mentioned, where the Org. had something to do with Heartless, was Luxord's Reaper Heartless, and the Dragon with Xigbar (which isn't even that worse, The Land Of Dragons was mostly defeating that Disney villain who's name escapes me right now. If anything, the Dragon was a mere distraction). Xaldin did it his own way with Beast. They didn't wreak havoc in all worlds.

And since we're on the topic of Roxas, you can see in that same discussion the awkwardness of what they were going to do:

Is not like they cheered on killing him, but in their case, Roxas was branded a traitor, and in Xemnas's words, needs to be taken care of, as is their rule since Castle Oblivion appeared. And you can see by interactions that they weren't cold to each other either, and that the news of what needed to happen to Roxas left them to a utter, heavy silence. And they weren't wanting to destroy Roxas because there were something's hidden or that is bad, is because they had no more use for him. They tried to give him chance to come back, but that wasn't the case, and it ended on that decision. They can't feel anymore more than that, so that's what it comes to. At least they aren't complete robots to ban one of their own a traitor right away unless it becomes to that point.

In the beginning they were also working againts Diz than anything else, and what he was doing, which by agreement to most fans, he was, to put it plainly, a b**tard.

This shows the fact on that they are contemplating what to do with the current situation and how to fix it, and they even ask Axel on some add ins for any ideas since he knows Sora and co. best. Too bad it ends there, and we don't know the finale of how that meeting went.

This also explains my argument on Xemnas's unbreakable rule said by Xigbar to Demyx.

Demyx didn't want to do his assigned mission, but him, and Xigbar knew the consequences if they didn't. Xigbar and Luxord had their orders, not everyone has to run away, is not like they had the self-discovery of their wrongs like Axel did to think otherwise (and that only started because Roxas left, if not, he was a loyal member), is not like they want to die, they want their hearts. Apparently, they don't know the Nomura interview, so they can't see that being destroyed might lead them back to their original forms (remember, most of this is reasearch by them).

And this can explain it all on Roxas's side:

Not to mention, the MAIN REASON ROXAS LEFT, he wanted answers, and he wasn't going to find them in the Organizaton:

Also:

While you may have your amo in some words, you're missing other words that go against them. We'll probably find more out as the translations keep coming, and when 358/2 Days comes out.

But to me, the Org. will remain misunderstood until it fully convinces me differently. I'm not replying to you exactly (only to the fact there are other inserts in the Novel that's not negative), but since you posted your opinion, so will I...for a last time. I mean, it's been what, 22 pages? o.O I didn't place the links to be debated, but more for people to get a chance to read the translations themselves.

 

Oh... I forgot to justify Saix' actions in Twilight Town... ok here we go. Remember Seifer was a jerk, who intimidated everyone who entered Twilight Town, often trying to fight them.

This is probably how it went...

Saix walks around looking for Axel, trying to stop him from hurting Sora.

Seifer: Hey outsider, get lost.
Saix: Is this kid for real? Ignores him.
Seifer: Ignoring me huh, time for some discipline. *Whacks with strugle club*
Saix: Oh My God... he is for real... *Whacks with a Berzerker. KOing him instantly. Lets Vivi escape, since he runs.*

Saix could have easily killed Seifer and friends instantaniously, but he lets them live. He is content with KOing them.

_______________________​

Ok... I just had the funniest thought about Demyx and Phil... it probably played out like this.

Demyx: Oh great, I got the Olympus stone, now I can finish my mission!
Phil: Hey, what are you doing with that?
Demyx: HOLY (BEEP)! A TALKING GOAT! *Whack*

 

Whether if he was a jerk or not, Saix did not need to hurt him. Seifer does not turn people into Heartless or harm people. He may be a bully but he's not that evil.

 

Excuse me whilst I slam my head into the keyboard for a moment.

ssdflhjdasjklasduasui

Okay. I really thought this was over with. Confirmation Bias FTL.

The Organization is not Evil, but they sure as hell ain't good either. They're doing a bad thing for an okay reason.

The reason why they had, yes, HAD, to be destroyed was becsude of the repurcussions of their actions. People were being killed over this. Innocent people. How would you feel if your best friend, your family, everyone you knew was being murdered for the benefit of some jerks that don't even exist? You wouldn't say "well you just want your hearts back so it's okay", you'd be mad! You'd wanna walk up to one of then and shank them! What if your entire world fell apart? What if you were killed?

It came down to Twelve Nonexistant Entities or Thousands of Innocent People. What would you have done in that situation? Please, keep in mind that Sora's just a kid. He was not mentally prepared to have to do what was called for.

 

Um... no. It came down to:

Thousands of nonexistant entities who were somehow intelligent, sentient, capable of both good and evil and had an honorable goal they were working towards which would benefit everyone, not just themselves
vs.
Thousands of obviosly evil entities, who are not sentient, and capable only of killing people and causing damage

The choice is obvios.

No innocent person being killed was ever part of OrgXIII's objective. Sora doesnt count as innocent, since they never intended to kill him, other than self defence and at the final moments when Sora had already accomplished his objective, and decided to kill OrgXIII for the hell of it.

And... Still no takers on my wild card... :(

 

Again, Twilight Night and ICSP, you miss the point entirely. You are trying to call Sora evil and the Org good. You are trying to say that the Org are the 'good' guys when it is clear they were not. They were out for selfish means and they WERE killing people and getting other people's hearts that had nothing to do with the Nobodies in the first place. If all they needed were Hearts from the Emblem Heartless and Pureblood Heartless, then all they had to do was tell Roxas that's what was needed. Also, I don't see where you guys are really responding to the Nomura refute point and that the Nobodies could have naturally gone back to their 'somebodies' but it is clear that perhaps they really did not want to and wanted to design themselves to be their own somebodies instead.

Saix proved that the Org could have called Heartless around. Saix did it easy enough. No, the point is they wanted -MORE- Heartless, so these Heartless on worlds were let to keep feeding and growing more so Sora would kill more. There seems to be a refusal to address the actual issues here and dance around the subject, making the Org seem innocent. If they were so innocent, why did they need MORE Heartless and MORE Hearts? They ARE responsible for messing up worlds and causing more people to fall to the Heartless. If their motives were true to get back their -former- Hearts, they wouldn't have needed to do this at all. They simply would have had to kill Heartless that already existed and find the ones they belonged with. Instead, they were increasing the amount of Heartless that needed destroyed and thus even creating probably more Nobodies.

I do believe there is a reason Xemnas wanted to stay as he was etc and do his thing and he had his goal but it does not make screwing up tons of places right to get what he desires. The top 6 put themselves in this situation in the first place and if they wanted out of it and to be whole they could have done something else better, but it did not meet their goals.

It is VERY clear they wanted to stay with the minds and souls and conditions they were in, but to have Hearts as well to be -real-. They still wanted the power and all. They wanted their identities. They did not want to go the way Roxas, Namine and Axel went. Therefore there was this plan that did take lives, that did nearly cost Beast his and they had this scheme in progress long before Sora was awakened. 358/2 Days is pertaining to enacting out some of the plan. This was not, as has been declared before, a plan that came out of nowhere because Demyx bit it.

No, the Org was not jumping up and down at the prospect of having to kill Roxas. However, they were determined to see it done, except for Demyx, who you note was turned into doing remedial tasks instead.

In the end, it's not EVIL that they wanted their Hearts back and to be whole. The METHODS they chose to employ to get to their means is what made them a force that had to be stopped. It's an issue of the ends justifying the means and in this case, they simply do not. Blaming Sora for killing them when they did nothing at all in their power, even though they clearly had the ability to do so, just doesn't seem right. THEY had the power all along. Not Sora. He was the underdog absolutely throughout all of this and was clueless on purpose. Riku also was stuck. He had to defend Namine from DiZ and deal with Axel and try to help where he could without giving himself away. They were stuck with what they could get. NO ONE knew what the Org was doing for much of the whole thing. Everything they showed the 'good guys' was that they were rotten manipulators.

So, I don't see them as necessarily evil, but I do see them as antagonists that had to be stopped because they had the greater power in the situation and were abusing it, being hostile, unclear and attacking, corrupting things and doing things that meant they had to be stopped. Sora was not happy about it. He was not like whoo-hoo through it. He was angry and upset through most of the scenarios and also baffled. Roxas obviously was not happy with the Org either, despite his friendship with Axel. Namine was not happy with the Org despite being a Nobody and wanting to be real. Axel was not happy with it and even in CoM was questioning his own moral stance at points and then all through KH2 he had to struggle with what he wanted. You do -not- see the other Org members having any moral struggle with what they were doing, except for Demyx when he isn't happy about killing Roxas.

The highway to Hell is paved with good intentions. They were 'misunderstood' because they wanted to be; not because they had to be.