Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

Dude. I'm into sex, not violence. :sly:

Are you going with the whole Demyx argument again? Because I already gave you evidence of everything that happened before that point. So any event and/or situation that I give you after that point in the game would be for naught. We both know this. And you also neglected to mention, Sora was going to fight regardless. Reluctantly, but regardless. He had no choice since the Heartless would be drawn to the Keyblade.

Well, that's your opinion. It'd still depend on the experiment.

BTW, when the conversation between Xemnas and Saix (from Final Mix) happened, how do we know that they weren't trying to split Sora into his Heartless and Roxas again? They obviously knew that Sora would be angry. And the fact that his anger and hatred with himself would continue to grow as he kept fighting. It'd be the exact same thing Xaldin was trying to do with Beast. Only in this case, the Org would have no intention of bringing Sora back. Why else would they send Axel to bring back Roxas?

 

Also, a person with a heart can be corrupted by darkness, such as Riku. This type of person is far more dangerous than a nobody, as they have a set alliance with a side.

Anyway, Sora still decided to play ball, simply because the racket was glued to his hand.

 

The fact that you still dodge the arguement I brought up, only emboldens me...

Actually... I was going to how Sora interacted with Saix in Hallow Bastion. Granted, by this point Sora really didn't like Org XIII, but I still can't see how he could justify not killing heartless, I'm sure you can't either. Since we all know that by sparing heartless, he is indirectly killing everyone the heartless kills.

It was the Orgs goal to use kingdom hearts for the benefit off all Nobodies, including Roxas.

Xemnas said so. "Share your power with all Nobodies." when speaking to his true love... Kingdom Hearts.

So yeah, they would have restored Roxas into Sora. Also, Axel acted on his own initiative to turn Roxas into a heartless.

Ok... lets run with Riku then.

Riku was redeemed when he saw the light. Riku lost his body, heart, and soul to darkness, yet he redeemed himself. So, who's to say OrgXIII couldn't turn back to the light.

Also, you say you feel sorry for Repliku, when Repliku was made of pure darkness. He was basically everything evil about Riku (he was permanently Dark Riku). Yet you feel sorry for him, and admit he got the short end of the stick.

So... OrgXIII is not quite as bad as Repliku, and they have the same chance as Riku.

Dont counter with "Well, they never said they wanted to return to light" because Riku never said so either.

The only thing close to that Riku said was that he wanted to free himself from Ansem. (Ironically, he ended up being a pawn for another Ansem)

 

Nothing to say here, except we didn't know what his goal was exactly, except to stop his apprentice from going any further. We know in the beginning that he simply wanted revenge, but he came to regret it. I'm guessing the machine was built around that time, or either reworked to fit the situation and ruin the faux KH.

But wait, this is another different topic o.O.

The hearts were not unstable. Nothing showed that they were, they were the same as you would've taken it out of a pure Heartless. The machine did nothing but release the captive hearts in the Org.'s KH by the light beam from the machine hitting the moon, therefore, depleting the source of energy, which ruined it with a hole. The hearts were...what? Fine. Crystal. Perfect. No pieces broken. Prove me otherwise.

Okay, so it was a power-up type of thing, I never denied it, that's why they needed to collect more hearts....what does this have to do with anything? The fact is, no harm came to those hearts except for the use of energy, and they could've been freed cleanly, considering Xemnas charged up and nothing truly awful happened.

We don't know what Kingdom Hearts is, most of us, even the die hard fans, haven't truthfully figured it out, and keep speculating just what is it. Mystery still surrounds it. The explanation we have so far is that "is the heart of all worlds", as well as having both light and darkness (of course, this is coming from what happened in KH1 in the end), and from the CGI BBS ending: where a blue heart-shaped essence is in the sky...that may be KH. We don't even KNOW where the hearts really go to since the Nomura interview said that when the heart is freed, "it goes into a state of suspension", until the Nobody is killed. What suspension is that? Does it say anything in print that's where all hearts go? (I'm actually serious...is there?)

For all we are sure of, the Org. may have simply made their KH suck up hearts to power it up, instead of redirecting them from where they are "suppose to go". Of course, the Org. XIII's KH wouldn't be considered the real KH, just a false one that was hand made. I'm sure it doesn't have the greatness that the real would.

Again, even if they did this, nothing happened to anything in the universe from those actions in-game, so it wasn't "bad" precisely. Is amazing how much people put this into the pedestal when is not even such a big deal in the first place. The only thing that would be "bad" is Xemnas having unmeasurable power from it, which might have been the reason to stop what he was doing and his creation. But is just him that's the main problem then.

Might not be the best idea, but as you said yourself, is one man, does not constitute for the rest. That one man is taken out, everything will be over. You have to remember the members were under his control, and as someone pointed out, not listening equals automatic betrayal and death, or turn into a Dusk in the case of Axel. Xemnas was the most powerful member of the Org. and their leader. Whatever he said, goes. Period.

The Org. never attacked Sora directly (except for Xaldin, and Demyx...but that one was kind of uncalled for) until he made it to their stronghold (which would constitute them to protect it and stop him from ruining their goal, which is the whole reason he was there, wasn't it? They were going to let him get away with what they had worked so hard for?), they were just giving him Heartless to destroy and to speed up the process (which again, Sora always does). Nothing has ever been stolen from Sora, what? The Olympus Stone? It wasn't even his, and it was returned. Placed on the floor for him to get it. In fact, it was, you could say, borrowed without permission, but not used as a excuse in this case, since it was given back.

Well, then, I sure didn't sense it.

Once more, they were working for the goal and following orders. Sora kills Heartless. Everytime he moves a step, they jump him. Right or not, fact is, Sora could handle it, so it wasn't as over the top wrong as some try to make it seem, especially if they can't even feel anything. As you could see, Kingdom Hears was almost done, hence, they needed to gather hearts quickly, and did what they could to accomplish it in time. Do you get that desire? You're so close to that goal and what you wanted most that it only needs just a bit more to reach it while you keep working for it?

Blocking Sora from the millions of hearts in danger? The hearts weren't in danger as I already explained above. Whether they would've been freed iof Xemnas and Org. succeeded, is another story that didn't end that way.

Sora had no obligation, but how is creating a world selfish? I don't understand that type of logic, The World That Never Was is created as well. Nobody complained about that.

Of course not, I was just trying to point out that he was enjoying destroying them for that while, is not like he sinned. He sounded arrogant, and blood lust isn't anything good either, so is not to be considered "saintly".

No, I can't. First off, Sora never remembered anything from Castle Oblivion, subsconciously or not, or else he would've known that the guys in cloaks seemed familia, what they are made of, what they did, and who Naminé was. And it would've been mentioned in the game as well. Second, Roxas's memories were never transferred to him, or else he would've known who the blond guy was plus everything else that needed to be known. And while Roxas did act on bodily functions (that time when Sora shed a tear), I'm sure he wasn't present (as in the essence of him, since he's now more like a spiritual and unnoticed part of Sora now) from the rest of the battles, as Diz himself was apologizing, saying if he could hear him.

Nobodies, as in Dusks, that were attacking him, who were simply just like Heartless with no sense of self at all? And that accounts for the human forms? >.< That sentence just proves how much he followed others people's words and opinions instead of getting his own outlook.

Attacking Hollow Bastion how? The Org. in Hollow Bastion merely first appeared to introduce themselves and leave. The only one who truly attacked it was Xemnas by summoning his thousand Heartless. Demyx didn't do anything except having his final battle there. And Saïx was just hunting down Axel. And once more, Sora follows other's advice about why the Org. is bad, and is soooo funny...because they (Yensid, Mickey, or even Diz) never explained what exactly were they doing so wrong in acquiring the goal the group had set out for themselves. I could understand how they keep summoning the Heartless in a specific place on a world for Sora to kill, but otherwise, what? "Messing up our worlds", which can be added for the same fact as having specific Heartless at one spot, when nothing horrible and irreplacebale happened to the said worlds or its people? I mean, hell, I don't see worlds exploding or having some type of space effect of a black hole anywhere. Is even obvious that the plot changed from "stopping the KH collecting hearts" to "stopping Xemnas".

I think the Org. perhaps didn't take in that they needed to ask (and really, how odd would that be?), as they already had a plan set in their minds and were following it, and there was also the chance the thought telling Sora would or may ruin their plans depending on his reaction that may be refused (is the same way why they never told Roxas anything in case of what he might decide).They could have thought of that option at one point, but came to rest that it may not work, or else, I'm sure it could've been settled with a type of agreement. But you also have to keep in mind that Xemnas had his own plans for himself (as you could see from him sucking up the power for himself and to create a "new world", then again, hsi members were all gone), and since he's the boss, may not have given that option to the rest because of his own goal. A group like the Org., depends on their leader for guidance and explanations, and I'm positive they were aware that it wouldn't be a good idea to cross him at all either way.

Who knows? *shrug* Is not clear how this all ended to be, so I might have to wait for 358/2 Days and see, which has to have more info into their workings. They weren't going to risk it, so they did the second best thing, and simply made Sora do what they would've asked of him without his knowing.

And Demyx told incoherent things (it wasn't even that much, really), how can that stop anyone from asking? Demyx sure made sense later on and was speaking correctly. And Demyx also didn't battle him until Sora just kept running his mouth on and on, and they were even making fun of him (yes, they were, calling him weak, how someone like him ever got to the Organization lol, etc). True or not, that was cruel.

Good. We're getting somewhere on distinguishing who.

From the outside it might look the same, so I do understand, yet going deeper, the difference is that what they were executing was a way to simply gain something they had lost and to feel emotions again, not for anything of "take over the world and rule" like what Heartless Ansem was planning.

Sora does get the chance to kill Xemnas, in the end with Riku. And you're forgetting this is a RP game. Xemnas as all powerful Leader = Last Boss. No matter what. It was merely plotted that way. Is still not clear if he did order the remaining members to take care of it (as Saïx had to ask), but again, I don't see what that has to do with the topic at hand other than hinting Xemnas is a coward?

Sora never bothered to ask anything of that matter, so why would they out of nowhere speak? Was it to be expected and believed that they appear and blab everything off to him right off? They didn't even know whether or not he wanted explanations. Both parties were at fault in that case.

The only time he ever questioned anything to them was with Xigbar where he asked who was Roxas and the guy was fading . How the hell is he suppose to explain that clearly when he's perhaps in pain and about to go push the daisies? The best is he could've done is yell concerning the time he had left "Roxas is your Nobody", which knowing Sora, will leave him even more confused. Xigbar didn't even bother to answer, because from the look on his face, you could see he was sad. I'll even post the picture so you can see into his eyes...sorry, eye and expression.

Again, Sora did NOT remember Castle Oblivion, so that whole argument is moot. Only in FM+ it was hinted that he might have have remembered (and he was already battling Xemnas's second form with Riku by then), because he didn't remember to "thank Naminé" (I was wondering what was up with that, since in the game, the Journal had said "Thank Naminé" and even when she told her name, Sora didn't do anything. I'm glad they fixed that up by adding that small tidbit). But that doesn't say much except for him forgetting to thank her from what was said in the Journal to do.

Oh, you do remember correctly, and I'm sure you figured that by Destiny's Force's post somehow. The whole thing actually made me laugh because it was so cliché. But is good to notice that only Xemnas was speaking, and the rest just followed his laugh. Could you imagine if one of the members spoke out about not doing that, and Xemnas giving him the glare of doom with a added threat? Coudl you imagine a Org. member agreeing with "Alright! Le'ts have some fun and laugh! Whoo!" (the whole thing was tedious and unneeded, in my opinion) They were simply following Xemnas, to whichever personal reason they had to do so (I could Demyx was because of fright). The only thing I think all the members agreed with was the chance to get their hearts back by their plot, but other than discussing about it in the Throne Room, is Xemnas that calls what to do in the end after hearing.

Saïx kidnapped her to simply ignite Sora's fire, and therefore, willing to fight more. No harm came to Kairi. Yes, she was locked up so she wouldn't escape (how else can you be able to keep her?), but did they torture her? Hurt her? Did anything eeeevilz? No. End of.

If losing your heart (which let me remind, is a pink glowing thing that floats) is like death, then they wouldn't be able to return, and as we already made fact from before, they can return. Dead means...you're dead. You're gone. Never coming back. Is even explained that in KH, dying is simply when both your heart and soul leave the body like a normal death usually is. The process of Nobodies and Heartless is simply those parts separating to their own entity, not that they are completelygone. It's like death, but it isn't at the same time.

Anyway, it seems we can drop this as it's not really adding anything further to the topic, right?

What...split? The experimentation is talking about the first six, but otherwise...I don't get what it is you're trying to get through.

My main reasons are, is that what the Org. did isn't that atrociously evil that would deserve them death in the hands of Sora (making him somewhat unjustified in that direction. It would've been fine if he understood from the beginning, and explained why the Org.'s goal was such a horrible thing that it needed to destroyed, other than Xemnas using it? In other words, KH2 should've been plotted better), taking in who they are, what type of creatures they turned out to be, human form or not, and the fact that they are not capable of regretting or feeling guilty, hence, no clear view of what they were doing...which wasn't even that much in reality.

Added to this, I do think that some of KH2 plots have holes in them that contradict each other (I think there was a thread for this, though it probably took its death), and believe it or not, there was room for a agreement, but since this is a game...what fun would that be? xD Of course, this is different since we are simply diving into the KH universe and its concept (at least I'm thinking so...), but is food for thought anyway.

 

I was trying to be funny, but if you wanted me to reply...

"I would rather help real people live, and destroy the regular Heartless that plague the worlds, than take on any artificial Heartless the Organization sent themselves."

And when exactly did that happen? Right after Demyx, correct? If I talk about that, you'd still counter with the "Sora spat in their face" argument. So, I'm going to try staying away from that topic...

Because once Sora realized he was being used and played for a sap, he didn't feel like being a team player for the Org. Face it, he may be an idiot, but he's not THAT gullible. Once he realized it was the Organization's fault for all the crap he's been going through, of course he's doesn't want them to succeed. He only continued destroying Heartless because he had no choice in the matter. I'd get into the whole Saix/Xigbar Heartless ambush in the Castle, but we already know how that argument would turn out.

Besides, what was Sora going to do? Saix summons Heartless to attack him and he'd just stand there and get himself killed? He was only defending himself for as long as possible while he could figure out a way out of the situation.

We also know by sending the Heartless and Nobodies to other worlds, the Org is indirectly responsible for the world's chaos.

"True love?" Were you trying to make a joke there? :huh:

AFTER splitting him up again? Even if they WERE going for that goal, Riku wouldn't allow the Organization to kill his best friend just to revive Roxas. Plus, unlike Sora who had his memories erased of Castle Oblivion's Org members, Riku knew exactly what happened. He wouldn't let the Org change him into a Heartless again. Especially not after everything he did to merge Sora back with Roxas.

And you meant changing Sora into a Heartless, right? Axel parted ways from Riku and Namine, so whatever he did was completely unknown to Riku. Or else Riku would've tried to prevent Axel from doing what he did.

Simple. Because they had no remorse for the people they harmed. AND Riku was possessed. The Org were acting of their own free will. The Heartless and Nobodies interfered with the worlds long before Sora or Riku ever meddled in them.

There's a difference. Repliku was artificially created and was also messed with by the Organization. He was their "toy" and he couldn't do anything about it. After learning that he would always be considered a Riku duplicate, he snapped and went after the real Riku. And the rest is history.

 

O.O
Wow...
I wondered where *TwilightNight* went... I never knew she was powering up for a Kamehameha.

Good point...

I piggyback this comment with Delita (an FF character) being a hero... guilty of many crimes against humanity. I don't want to go much further into it since its mad spoilers.

But... good story telling can skew ones perspective of good, evil and misunderstood. Org is portraid as evil... but I believe they are truly misunderstood.

 

Roftl! xDD I swear when I read that I cracked a rib from laughing, lol.

Anyway, I could really answer anything, not even in RPing cause I was so busy, not to mention I had to study. I only logged in once to read, before getting out again, and going to vacuum the carpet on my father's job for twenty bucks, and then we went out to eat to Red Lobster (and I hate sea food, but there's chicken anyway), and I didn't get home until ten. So there you go for why I lasted long today in case anyone wondered xP.

And for some reason, my brain works better at night.

 

Not really, I am trying to prove that DiZ was trying to save the hearts, not just get the heart destroyed.

No, you misunderstand. I meant the construct of kingdom hearts was unstable, not the actual hearts. It is spurting hearts out over the place, because of DiZ's machine.

I said "Use the energy up" I also said that the hearts were the energy. Also, what happened to the remaining hearts? They never seem to go anywhere, they just vanish after Xemnas died. Expended. Gone. Where else would the energy come from? I can deal with the fact that a heart is able to function forever, until the body gives out, but a heart is not a Dragon ball. There a some cost to giving every Nobody back its heart. Otherwise, if the Massive Kingdom hearts construct is that powerful, it can use power to destroy everything. (Also, just in case you agree that yes, the heart is a dragon ball like object, and it can grant every wish, Sora, being a hero cannot in good knowledge give someone like Xemnas almighty power)

I have no idea what KH is considered. I know there is a real place where hearts go. Numora would not have hinted at it with the Riku-Repliku cutscene otherwise.
"Where will my heart go?"
"Probably to the same place as mine."
"how original"

To be honest, I do not think that is it in print. I guess it is hinted to though. When Ansem says "All hearts came from darkness, and into darkness they shall return!" I think he is saying that it was KH that hearts come from and return to. Considering that he thought kingdom hearts was the ultimate darkness, I think we can make the jump that he is saying hearts come and return to kingdom hearts.

Also, there is that whole dormant idea as well.

Plus, the hearts when released from the KH construct turn into shadows. So even if it is not destroying the hearts, it is making Sora have to redo all the KH2 work he did with killing heartless! (I think that that was an okay shot)

Their KH was made of hearts. It was the hearts fused into a heart moon. Also, like said before, it does interfere with the hearts. Would all those pure hearts Sora freed be falling to heartless if the org did not do anything to them? No, they would be doing whatever hearts do.

Exactly. But it is very difficult to do that. Think of Xemnas like Hitler. You have no choice but to obey. Also, it is very difficult to kill him without killing the rest of the Org. Besides, The only two who were slightly innocent were Demyx and Luxord. Slightly.

We have the original six, plus Axel and Roxas, Larxane, Siax and Murluxia. These ones either helped, fought or were Sora.

The Six were the ones who released the original plague of heartless. They are evil, and do not even deserve salvation. (on the off chance they got it, I can see more experimenting)

Axel helped Sora eventually. We will ignore him.

Roxas is Sora. He returned to Sora. We will also ignore him.

Larxane was sadistic, and a traitor. She really did nothing outstanding to warrant death, more just everything. (plus, she attacked him)

Murluxia tried to manipulate Sora. He got his just deserts. (ICSP, I dare you to try to defend him!)

Saix was second in command. He was far too rooted in Xemnas to back out.

They attacked him with nobodies outside the train station! They attacked hollow bastion when they introduced themselves. They were trying to get a "fear us, we are evil" approach going. Sure, this was not directly, but at shown with Xaldin, they had no qualms about attacking him. Most just has a scheming nature, so they only fought last.

Following Orders, following orders. Pah. Sure, they want it. Sora also wanted to stop them. This is why he plowed through Xigbar, Luxord and Saix in an effort to prevent them becoming almighty. Also, wanting something is no reason to have it. I want candy. I smash a candy store window and take some. My defence is "I had a sudden craving for candy, Sorry!"

The hearts were in danger, as I already explained above. by that point in time, it was only Xemnas left, along with Saix, Xigbar and Luxord. Saix was his right hand man, Xigbar was one of the six, and Luxord used himself as a seal to stop Sora. These people are not trustworthy with that sort of power. Especially considering what they did the past two games, along with BBS.

Well, the org had no right to harness hearts Sora released, thinking they would go to heart heaven, or whatever. A slightly weak point, but coupled with the points mentioned above, becomes slightly stronger.

I will not bother to try to defend Sora here. But you are taking it out of proportion. If you complain about a few words, what can I do with Demyx "borrowing" a stone?

Roxas came out at the end. Also, DiZ clearly thought there was there was a chance Roxas could here. There was the tear, linked to emotion. Not a bodily function. Sora said that he felt sad, not that he needed to get dust out of his eye, or go to the toilet.
So Roxas was there, in a way. But also, Sora got attacked first thing. Then he found his friends saying that the nobodies are bad. If you can use "they are nobodies, they have no hearts" as an excuse, I can say that Sora is a human, and his heart leads him to believe his friends.

No, dusks were controlled by the Org. No such thing as a "Rouge nobody" Axel got his dusk controlling power stripped. Nobodies were always given Orders. Everything vanished when Xemnas was defeated, leading me to think that they were bound to his will, and that once the link was severed, they either go rouge, or die.

In the baliey. The gate. The nobodies attacked there. Also, 1000 heartless is a big deal, right?

No space black hole effect, true. Sora was the target, not the worlds. Besides, the world's heart was protected.
Also, no one knew the goal. They knew they were attacking places with heartless and Nobodies. Good enough reason to fight them.

If they keep him in the dark, and attack him with heartless like a lab rat, then they get what is coming to them. Even if the org did not know it was wrong, Sora knew that he had to protect himself. Like before, he went after the big leaders. Like Leon told him to in Traverse town in KH1.

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Look, the org has done far worse things. All appearing, laughing at him, going away? Telling him the keyblade was better in more competent hands? The org trash talks too. Don't attack Sora for doing some insulting as well. While not saintly, it is normal for a boy of his age.

True, but it did look the same from the outside. The Org did nothing to dispel the rumours circulating them. Sora hardly shot them because they wore a large jacket onto a train, like what happened in London. The org saw the policemen coming, they decided to continue, and not even stick their hands up.
Also, that analogy was based on the assumption the org was innocent. (I do not think this)

Yes, but that is only in the end, after only the evil guy is left, and all the rest dead. The context I used it in was that Sora never got a chance to kill Xemnas while "innocent" Org members were around.

As for leader=last boss, yeah, I know that. But plot wise, Xemnas also fought last. Sure it is following a trend, but it is still canon.

No one would blab, except Xemnas. He meets Xemnas once, at hollow bastion during the 1000 heatless. I forget what happened there. Remind me please?

Fine, fine. No proof, I get it. But Roxas did affect him.

So Xemnas was a leader. fine. The thing is, everyone followed him, and died for him. Sora never got to fight him except after Xemnas ran out of scapaegoats.

Still, the reason it gives Sora reason to fight is to crush those who imprisoned her. No harm done, but it was intentionally to annoy Sora. Throw stones at the dog, and it will attack.

It is adding, as we are discussing whether the org was allowed to attack beast.

Loosing your heart is not a pleasant experience. Just like having your arm broken. There was not even a reason for attacking beast except to "get a strong nobody" Pretty much, what they are doing to beast is like a random person walking up to you, cutting off your arm, playing with it for a while, then giving it back to you telling you to get a surgeon to fix it. Possible, but very rare. (I am not interested whether it is really possible or not, do not reply saying that limbs cannot be fixed.)
Also, if they were fixing beast, why do it in the first place?

I said the Castle oblivion split of the Org had nothing to do with hearts.

The thing is, even if Sora is not justified given the whole information (and I think he is justified when given the full information) he was not given the whole information, and the org made no effort to enlighten him. He acted with the information he was given, and with that information, he was justified. The org never tried to change his mind. They looked down at him until the bitter end. They considered him a tool at best.


_________________________

You did not just bring Repliku into this!

The org is worse than Repliku! Repliku's only actions were going after Riku. An understandable endevour. not the most light hugging concept ever, so yes, one aspect he is bad. But, that is only because the org made him that way, as a tool against Riku.

Everything else Repliku did was because of the Org. All the hunting Sora was because the org used him. They altered his memories. No, that is misleading. Altering suggests there is some remnant of the original memories. They completely reworked his heart!

I admit he is not the embodiment of god, yes. But he really got shafted. He never wanted to be like he was. He wanted an identity. the darkness was a mix of the org, and a lust for being better than Riku.

He never had any choice in the matter. The org made him like he was. So any crime committed by him because of what he was is the org's problem.

Then you say that he was darkness. No. He had a heart. He got his heart meddled with. Darkness does not have hearts, except to consume or entrap them. He was what his name suggests. A Riku Replica.

He has no place here, in the debate, except for his last words to hint to there being a last residing place of the heat.

Good night.

 

*Mickey confronts Xemnas.*
Mickey: Xehanort!
Xemnas: How long has it been since I abandoned that name...
Sora: Out with it, Nobody! Where's Kairi? Where's Riku!?
Xemnas: I know nothing of any Kairi. As for Riku...Perhaps you should ask your king.
*Xemnas steps into the portal of darkness.*
Mickey: Stop!
*Mickey dives in after him.*
*Sora and co. start after them, but the portal closes.*
Sora: He's gone.
*Sora collapses to ground, utterly defeated.*
*Donald notices the mass of Heartless have all disappeared.*

I'd like to also point out that Sora must've had SOME inkling of Roxas. How else would he have known who was in that picture of the Twilight gang in front of the mansion? (The photo Riku gave them in the Realm of Darkness) Because when you look at Roxas picture, is the name "Roxas" the first name that comes to mind?

 

I think it has more to do with the person who is asking the question. To organization 13, I'm sure he wasn't justified. To his friends, I'm sure he was considering the fact that he supposedly did it to save the world (though I honestly doubt that he suceeded . Darkness lurks within every heart and nobodies/ heartless are bound to come back.)

 

True, but despite the justification, Sora DID save the world.

 

By justification, we mean was it morally acceptable, from our point of view, to kill the org.

My new type of argument is that assuming the original six are guilty, and will likely return to darkness, there are only two nobodies in KH2 that might not deserve to die.

The Castle Oblivion group got what was coming to them. They gave Sora fake memories that order him to kill them. Sora was not in complete control of himself there, so we will say that everyone inside castle Oblivion died from "unforseeable accidents"

Larxane, Marluxia, Vexen, Lexaeus and Zexion all get crossed off the list.

Axel saw the light and helped Sora in the end. Sora never fought him except in castle Oblivion, where he had lost a fair bit of control over himself.

Roxas is Sora, so we will leave him out, considering that the fight between them is a personal thing, not Org related.

Seven members gone already? 6 to go.

Xemnas everyone agreed was evil. He had to go. He could not be given the power he tried to attain.

Saix was Xemnas' second in command. He was almost slobbering on his feet. Someone who worships Xemnas this much will go down with the ship. He was first mate.

Xaldin was tormenting Beast. He did everything imaginable to harm him, short of attacking Beast directly. Sora fought him, and he died.

Xigbar was not pure evil, but we can assume he corrupted the Dragon, and I know he appeared in tLotD at some point. He tormented Sora while there, saying that he was unfit to wield the keyblade. He then tried to kill Sora at the end, so it was fighting to defend on Sora's side.

Now for the two slightly innocent:

Demyx. He did appear in front of Sora, and his people had been fighting Sora for a fair bit there. So Sora kills him. I can assume Demyx was sent there, as he said "I told them I was not the one for this" then turns round and says "Silence traitor!"

Luxord: He did mess up pearl harbour, and I can tell you, I died fightlng that heartless a few times. No means was it easy to beat. If Sora lost, he lost his heart (I doubt Kairi would find him, cosidering she was locked up with the org!}. Bad right?

So, anyone above you care to argue innocence for?

 

Well Demyx could've stopped from fighting. Heck, he probably could've offered Sora passage into their world. Luxord however seemed to invite Sora to fight him moreso than Demyx. Besides, apart from Pearl Harbor he did imprison Sora's friends in some other dimension.

 

Here's how I see the Organization:

Vexen: He's a perverted pedophile that probably did things to Namine when we weren't watching. :xp: Kidding. Don't take that as my argument. He's a scientist that has nothing better to do than to create little boys and make them fight each other for his own amusement.

Marluxia: Manipulated Sora. Led him to Castle Oblivion. Made Sora believe he was in love with Kairi's Nobody.

Larxene: Sadistic, cruel, kicks and abuses little kids. Worked with Marluxia.

Zexion: Sora had nothing to do with him, but he did try to play on Riku's doubts. Deserved what he got.

Lexaeus: Same as Zexion.

But since Sora doesn't remember anything that happened during that time period and he wasn't exactly himself, those Org members don't qualify.

Demyx: I'm going to make this clear right now. Demyx had NO intention of running away. He only turned his back on Sora and the others because he wanted to keep the little dignity he had left. Probably would've cried or wet his pants if he had a heart. The Org basically threw him out there as a scapegoat. If it was anyone's fault, it was the Org for sending him out there in the first place.

Xigbar: Taunted Sora after the Org did their disappearing act at the Bailey. Had a chance to explain what was going on during the silence between them, but opted to disappear. Was also responsible for the Storm Dragon.

Saix: Like Larxene, he went and picked on little kids. Even if it were to get Sora's attention, there's still no grounds for attacking Seifer, Fuu, and Rai. They were only armed with foam bats. He commanded Berserkers. Also summoned the Heartless swarm twice after Sora.

Luxord: Put the curse on Jack Sparrow again. Sends out an Emblem Heartless after them. Destroys the Interceptor (or Black Pearl, whichever) with his cannons. Traps Sora's friends in cards.

Xaldin: The whole Beast argument. 'Nuff said.

Xemnas: This was all his idea to begin with. To manipulate a kid with a giant key. Didn't explain anything until the very end.

Axel: HIM, I don't think deserved what he got. He atoned for his mistakes. And Sora didn't kill him, so he's a moot point.

Roxas: Self-explanatory.

And let's not forget SOMEONE gave the Peddler Jafar's lamp. Don't know which one, but someone did.

And Pika_Power, we already know what the argument's going to be. Anything after the Demyx scene will be considered null and void. There's no escaping that fact. The best chance we've got is to use any evidence that happened before that point...

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Besides, it's not like Sora did this on his own will, he was TOLD that "killing" them was the right choice. Besides, he was attacked by Dusks and that doesn't leave a good impression.

 

Stopping their plans? Perhaps.
Totally destroying the org.? No.

It's really hard to tell because we have yet to see the large result of it all. But knowing Nomura, it sounds like a backstabbing movement.

 

Hmm, okay.

Then the reason it was unstable was because of Diz, not because of anything else. But...okay.

Have you ever thought that the hearts are simply used of their energy, but it doesn't exactly make them expended or gone? There's been cases were some use that type of essence, but where the energy comes from, is fine. They cannot simply be destroyed or "used up". Energy is not unlimited, there's a certain amount of power, yes, but just because it is utilized, does not mean that it will be used up (especially when they were still glowing bright pink), when in fact, there is possibility of a recharge due to the natural flow of the said hearts. What happened to the remaining hearts? We don't know, is not like the battle took place around the heart shaped moon, but we do know that they kept falling down in showers to the ground, where Heartless and Nobodies were celebrating (not exactly taking them, more like dancing).

As you can see, actually, when Xemnas powered up from the KH, there weren't any hearts falling anymore before he did that, so we could also assume that the energy needed remained there even with the hearts freed, but since the source was gone, Xemnas was only able to use what was left before the lingering energy was completely vanquished, hence, why he wasn't that powerful in the way he should've (I'm sure if it was complete before Diz took action, Sora and Riku wouldn't stand a chance).

And that's the thing. It wasn't that outrageously, outrageously, powerful (the faux) except for the the use it was made for, so it wouldn't really have the power to destroy everything, a copy is not better than the original, and the real one is sure as hell important. Doesn't mean is the same for its fake imitation. Nothing in KH said that there would be a "cost" that a Nobody would gain back their heart, because despite not able to use it, Nomura wouldn't have given the interview saying that Nobodies could return to their original forms then, if it was costly.

Not to mention, it was never said that it will be their heart, but rather "a heart", so the flow wouldnt be broken.

That doesn't really say anything, though.

Fact is, every world as much as every power has darkness inside them, it could mean anything, even the darkness of your own self. And it was proven by Sora in KH1 that he was wrong, that not all ends in darkness, and there is also light. Or maybe I missed the point of the game....

Since this is merely talking about the mystery of KH, we can drop this one.

If it was fused, there wouldn't be any hearts. You do know what fusion means, right? Means that they come together to make one, permanently. That didnt happen. If the moon is destroyed as they are one, so will the hearts go with it.

No, they didn't, all we saw was that the hearts were falling down to Heartless and Nobodies, and who knows if they caught it, or they simply vanished magically (like they usually do). There's nothing there to suggest that it turned back into Shadows, as remember, if the Heartless is killed, the heart is released, and goes into a state of suspension. They migth've went into that suspension, since the Heartless they were residing in was destroyed.

Also, just in case, I think that the Heartless don't simply take the hearts either, but more like get obesessed when they "smell" it, and rip it out from the human, though it doesn't really "eat" them, or else each Heartless would've have had more than one heart freed. Don't you think?

But is it their fault they had no choice, but to obey? It was either do or die. Remember, this is made of members who were picked up and perhaps convinced of the fact that joining might give them their hearts back, they maybe didn't even meet Xemnas or knew what his rule was. From there, it was a bit too late. That, and is not like Xemnas tortured them either, so they stayed to work on getting back a heart, which is what they all desire, some bigger than others, but still remains the same. I think the Organization was fine in the beginning, but when members started rebelling, maybe concerning Xemnas, that's where it started to fall.

Nothing else to say about Demyx and Luxord, at least you're getting they weren't that bad...hell, Demyx wasn't bad, period.

What I'm getting is this type of view of "evil". Even villains have their set of stories and background that made them what they are today, or led them to what they do now. The Six were too obsessed and concentrated on their work to the point were they didn't want to stop, and wanted to discover more secrets of the heart. Is not like they worked to be evil, and even the game hints this, but they got too involved, too focused on the studies to notice anything else of what they were doing to figure the heart out. They lost themeselves. In the end, it backfired on them all, especially on Xehanort, who was perhaps borderline dangerously obsessive than the rest. Diz got out of it before it was to late for him, but he did took part, and maybe even did experiments with them. He got redeemed, so that means that the other disciples are capable of doing the same. The thing is, will they? Or are they still involved in research to stop?

Just to say, I'm not really defending them, not even part of my argument cause what they did in their research was really out there, just giving a more in depth fact to the situation that doesn't outright yell "EVIL!", because I see it in all sides of the view, and not just simply blindsighted into one. The world isn't simply made of "evil" and "good", as they say, "the world is not black and white", is not that simple...a dictionary can't answer the meaning, it goes deeper than that (and I also think that's what KH tries to represent as well), it also depends on the person's actions and history. Even the difference of evil and good is still heavily debated. And is not up to you to say that they don't deserve salvation, you're not God, and neither is Sora. The disciples are nothing more than a example of human weakness and what happens when you let it overtake you. That isn't evil.

Put yourself in their place, be one, focus and concentrated on finding out more information and discoveries, in your current mind set, would you consider what you were doing wrong? *raises eyebrow* And speak the truth...in your current mind set?

Larxene really didn't do anything except play around with him, but that was in her nature and her personality. She was the resident b*tch, and the world is full of them. There's not alot to defend about her, honestly, but we also don't know how she got the way she is. Do you think people are born with sadism?

Marluxia had his own plans, and they were stopped. Nothing else more to say, he did even worse in the manipulation department, but that was his own plot, not the Org.'s.

Saïx was simply being a loyal puppy because he truly wanted the heart he was suppose to gain in the end of it all. I saw this was made clear when he was fading. Is not even really evil, more of the desire of something that was missing and making you incomplete. Even Sora was sad to see it (a little too late to understand them, I see).

I guess this also answer's the post after about the single Org. members, except for Demyx I think...I probably missed Xigbar and Luxord, though I already set out my opinion on Luxord on previous posts...so I missed Xigbar...

You agreed that it wasn't "evil" right, not that much? I don't know, other than a insult, stating that he wasn't good with other like past wielders is because Sora wasn't. He's basically saying the truth, that he wasn't as good as the other wielders. Would you kill somebody for that?

And Xigbar attacked because Sora was going to destroy what they were working on (KH), especially since Sora was in their turf, and not exactly there with his friends for tea and cookies. He was sad as well for fading away. Saïx went to do the same (and we know he was protecting KH with his last action). Luxord too.

But I don't know how many times people are going to explain Demyx. Destiny's Force post is simply her opinions on the Org. members, so I think that doesn't need to be answered, unelss ICSP wants to.

Sora can handle lower Nobodies just fine. They didn't attack Hollow Bastion themselves or directly (it was Xemnas that really summoned something dangerous to Hollow Bastion later in the game). Another swarm of Nobodies? It didn't seem like "fear us, we are evil", it more seemed like they were just introducing themselves with some added mockery on Xemnas's part. And is funny how Sora didn't like his picking on him, but when he does it to Demyx later, the water guy deserves it, right? (and I'm only saying this because it brings the same situation) Xaldin, again, does not make for every member's opinions and personality. He was his own independence in action.

Becoming almighty? How the hell were they to become "almighty" by gaining a heart? The only one who seems to want "almighty" is Xemnas, and it was proven by his later actions of sucking up the energy. Candy does not constitute for a heart. You're saying these Nobodies can't have their hearts? Are you serious? Hearts are not candy, candy is something you eat and is good, and you can get it everywhere. I can't believe you're comparing hearts to candy. Hearts is what make you feel emotions, a important part of you.

If you were devoid of feelings and felt incomplete because of it, you're actually telling me you wouldn't want it or desire it back?

And if you don't, then that's your decision to live as a empty shell. The Org. members didn't want to.

The hearts are not in danger, as I already explained a million times, and is pointless to repeat myself over again. The members weren't going to get any power (again, where does it say it in the game?), if anything, Xemnas will make sure they got what they were promised, and perhaps do something else with KH by himself (after all, who do you think would've handed out the hearts to them or know how to use said KH? The Leader usually gives the honor), in which he did when Sora and co. reached him. And I already kind of explained my reason on the Disciples part above, and BBS hasn't even concentrated on the researchers or anything yet, so you can't really add that in.

Not really.

What can you do? Demyx only stole it, used it so he'll be able to use his powers in the Underworld (which was advice giving by Xigbar or someone in the KH2 Novel...yes, there are Demyx chapters. Could you believe he got freaked out by Phil and ran away? xD), and he returned when he was finish using it. Is not like he took it permanently.

Roxas was there, yes, they are connected, but not in the way that Sora remembers what he went through and got his memories automatically.

Believe his friends with no sure explanation of why is so bad what they were doing? There's a difference there. If someone is going to say something bad about the other person, they give reasons why. Yensid, Mickey, nor Diz ever truly explained it, simply saying is "OMGZZHEEVILZ!" without further facts about their KH. End of story. If my friends told me something like that without a reason that I can't agree with since I don't understand, I would say is more of their bias and opinion than anything. That's why I think KH2 wasn't perfectly plotted. No reason is ever given throughout the game except the whole Heartless focus on Sora thing in worlds, as I said already.

Correction, the Org. are capable of controlling the Dusks, not that all were in their control, so they are "Rouge Nobodies". The only ones who weren't were the ones that took after them, which is Sniper Nobodies, Berserkers, etc.

Well, at least you agreed on the Xemnas thing, yet...

Why would they need to die? They can simply go rouge, unless they have no option but to be killed.

Nobodies easily taken care of, and there weren't even that much. Big deal, yeah, but not their doing, but rather his.

Exactly, so there's nothing wrong as to why they couldn't succeed with their goal of gaining hearts.

They weren't attacking "places", but the places were Sora went, there's a contrast where they just attack a town for the hell of it and for fun, and a contrast when they were just focusing on a the goal at hand without doing much else. Good enough reason to fight them on the outside, but when you get their goal and what they were trying to gain back, it changes.

Even with a a heart achievement in mind, they had it coming? The point is, the Org. didn't know they were wrong, right? So how does that make them evil, if not, more misunderstood?

That was the only time though, and it also makes up for what Sora did to insult and trash talk to Demyx. Xigbar was the only one that stated that. If Sora didn't like how they were laughing at him, why do the same to someone else? Which just makes him a hypocrite. Just because he's "that age" isn't a good excuse to what he did. Might as well just simply take in the argument quietly already that the Org. were innocent because they didn't have hearts and couldn't feel, instead of gravelling down on them.

I already explained that they didn't need to, and Sora showed not signs of wanting to find out the truth either, so why do they have to for no reason given? The Org. didn't see any police men, just the person that they needed to use coming, or "police man", and they continued because of the goal that I also explained a million times about and why, while the "police man" had no clue into really knowing what was going on truthfully.

And police men don't simply shoot. They arrest, and take them in for questioning, something Sora did not do. He just shot.

The game makes it that way, whether is canon or not. Everyone followed him without a choice, but they didn't die for him, they died for their goal. Why would they die for Xemnas, when they can't feel or desire him in any way other than the leader?

Remind you please? Again, it was Xemnas, not the Org., so there's no need for reminding.

Not in the memories department.

Yeah, but the dog doesn't know better and think is simply being threatened. Sora has something called a brain, as little as it is. There could've been other ways to handle it than simply "KILLEZ", and he got her back anyway before he could go on any further in the castle or even fought Xigbar. To attack them for finding Kairi was over then, and it was mostly Saïx who came up with that plan on his own (which I'm sure it wasn't disagreed with), and Axel also told Sora the same thing. Saïx.

You mean Xaldin?

If losing you heart is not a pleasant experience and you know this, then you could also understand where the Organization comes from as being Nobodies with their hearst absent, now, wouldn't you? Losing your heart is not like having your arm broken, except the fact that it makes you incomplete and a piece is missing, but it isn't as painful, or it isn't impossible to get another back. They never showed how they really lose their hearts of how Heartless attack, except for the manga, but even then is questionable if it was painful, as Sora didn't seem to be in pain when he jabbed that black keyblade into his chest in KH1. Not part of the point, but something to bring up, since you seem to be aware how hard is it to lose a heart, when the Org. suffered the same thing, and you still hammer them down.

Xaldin wasn't even trying to cut Beat's heart out, just giving him enough depression and stress so his heart might give in to darkness, and then he can have his Heartless.

Beast isn't even my part of the argument or about "fixing", so talk to ICSP for that since I'm not sure what is it that's the point (I merely skimmed over other posts and didn't really read it well).

Didn't know you were bringing Castle Oblivion into this when it wasn't even remembered in KH2. But these were simply traitor's actions that went againts the group itself and the group's goal. What Zexion, Vexen, and Lexaeus were trying to do and how they went about it is also debatable on another topic, because they were trying to find a way to counter Sora to Marluxia's Sora, thus, Riku was needed. If you want to make a thread to discuss this, be my guest.

The full information he got was that they were collecting hearts, and what they were doing on bringing Heartless to him. Not exactly "full information", is it? Sora also made no effort to enlighten himself about the workings of what they were doing, he never tried, and didn't bother either, so if he is justified for that, then so is the Org.

 

Okay, let me throw a question out there. Throughout the entire KH2 game, has Sora ever abused his powers for his own selfish reasons?

If your answer's yes, when?

If your answer's no, then answer the question if the Org abused THEIR powers. They obviously had a year's advantage over Sora. They had powers, technology and more strength than Sora. And it's also been proven that the Keyblade isn't the ONLY weapon that can release hearts.

When one is stronger than others and abuses their powers, that person's called a bully, right? Now start ticking off the stuff that the Org has done that constitutes them mentally or physically hurting others for their own personal agenda.

And you can't use the argument of "testing" Sora, because they're still abusing their powers to mess with him.

You use the argument that the Org knows that Sora can destroy anything they throw at him. That's where you're wrong. Sora CAN NOT defeat most enemies on his own. I'm talking about the battles that require Donald, Goofy or a world ally. Sure, they might SEEM useless, but they still make a difference nonetheless. If Sora could take on bosses on his own, he might as well be Riku. It's not that the Org's underestimating Sora, it's they're giving him too much credit for the kills he makes. The only boss that Sora had to kill by himself was Luxord. Sephiroth doesn't count, since Cloud was the one who finished him off. Jafar doesn't count either, because Sora needed the Magic Carpet to assist him.

My point is that Kairi was right in saying, "You know how hopeless he is without us." Sora relies on other's strengths to destroy a boss. I say "destroy" and not "defeat." Huge difference.

In conclusion, the Org were bullies which constitutes as "evil." And they started this fight, NOT Sora.

BTW *TwilightNight*, I'm flattered that you think I'm a girl. :p But where do you get the KH2 novels if they're not out yet? That's top-class info that we have no way of verifying...

 

No, he has never abused his powers. Let's see where you're going...

Other than the Heartless or Xemnas, not really. Year advantage over Sora or not, the boy could still handle his fights anyway, it wasn't like he was weaker, except in the beginning of the game. He would've lost. In the end, he perhaps gained more skills (The Forms), as well as more strength. The Org. never used any technology on him anyway, so there's no argument in that (and technology in what, exactly?). Together as a whole Organization, of course they can overpower him. But individually? No.

The Keyblade isn't the ONLY weapon that release hearts, true, but the Heartless are more attracted to the Keyblade than any other weapon, as well as the one who wields it, which is why Sora always gets attacked everytime he's walking compared to other people. Supposely, the Heartless were attracted to him or the weapon, because they feared it, and try to attack Sora even with their lives in stake (not that they can even think), so if the wielder is gone, they wouldn't be killed. It was along those lines...I think it was from information on the Heartless or the Keyblade...it was probably KH1 info, can't remember well. Yeah, it was KH1. Perhaps even in the game itself when everything was explained to Sora for the first time. Gotta see the script.

Anyway, what that means is, more Heartless go to Sora, hence, works for the Org.'s favor.

As explained above, they weren't really abusing it, so there's no reason to answer more on this.

Cannot defeat most enemies on his own? But those enemies were simply Heartless or either lower Nobodies, not the greater power boost. This was something he had progressed over and done every usual journey. If there is a Emblem Heartless, Org. or not, he will defeat it with no problem. He defeated Saïx alone as well, including Luxord as you said, most of the times he has friends, yes, but even without them, you could obviously see that he could handle himself as he defeated them by himself. Even with Donald and Goofy, he does most of the work.

Sephiroth is considered a God (okay, exaggerating, but if you played FF7...), so he's unbeatable except to Cloud, and the fight with him is simply a spar every time, because none are hurt, and none win. Even with his friends, Sora wouldn't win. In fact, Sephiroth will KO Donald and Goofy first, then he's on his own anyway.

All the carpet did was fly him around to reach the opponent...the carpet wasn't the one to attack, hit, and defeat the genie, was it? The carpet wasn't where the power was coming from. It was Sora's strength in itself. Is like you're using a car.

The Org. knew Sora could defeat Heartless and Nobodies, as he had battled greater than that. It wasn't impossible, and nothinb that Sora wouldn't do on normal circumstances.

Unless there's a battle on his own that he couldn't win, the whole point is moot. And no, Final Form Xemnas is the exception.

Kairi doesn't know crap, and that was merely a offhand comment that wasn't true. Lol. People even complained before about why the hell she said that when it wasn't the case. Sora can rely on his friends, but when he doesn't have them, he has to rely on himself. And he did so successfully.

You're...not? o.O

And I read them in a livejournal website where they translate the Japanese into English (as well as the manga). Mind you, they only translated some parts of the KH2 Novel. There was Axel and Saïx, where the redhead ran away, lol, then there was a scene where Rikunort and Xemnas meet and have battle, though it blacks out, so we didn't know how it went. Riku fougth Saïx, Axel got knocked out and saved by Naminé, but his ribs hurt, there was another scene where it was explained why Riku, in the Land Of The Dragons, was battling Sora in the snow that time. It was kind of funny. Turns out he was simply reminiscing on the time back on the island, when they use to spar. He wasn't attacking him, honestly. And the rest follows Axel and Naminé's constant angst. Demyx get some chapters about his time in the Underworld, and there was a meeting with the Organization added too.

If I remember the site, I'll give it to you.

 

Still fighting...

My apologies. I was thinking of that Heartless factory in Ansem the Wise's study. The one they used to use to create the artificial Heartless.

And remember that Sora wasn't alone in most of the battles against the Org. Beast helped him against Xaldin. Donald and Goofy helped with most of the other Org members. Jack Sparrow would've fought Luxord and Mulan would've fought Xigbar if they had the chance (and I'm wishing someone would do a hacked fight with them as party members...)

But I'd still like you to justify Saix's actions in Twilight Town. The getting Sora's attention argument doesn't justify him attacking a bunch of kids with foam bats. That's what I meant by "bullying" and "abusing."

I brought that point up a few posts back and what I said was that Sora had no choice in the matter. He'd have to fight the Heartless regardless, whether he wanted to or not. It's not that he wouldn't have helped the Org if they weren't screwing around with his life. It's the fact that he was being used since he woke up and him realizing that the Org was responsible for all the chaos he's been going through is the reason Sora refused to work with them.

And who sent the Heartless? True, the worlds already had their share of Heartless, but the Org decided to increase the load. Besides, Sora's not invincible. He can't keep fighting without rest (or Potions), but the Org give him more to fight anyway.

I beg to differ. Xaldin turned Beast against everyone in his castle. Luxord cursed Jack Sparrow. Xigbar turned the Storm Dragon on the palace. Saix, I already stated above.

The only one that I wouldn't really classify as a bully would be Demyx. I never said that he was evil. He was just picked on for his timidity and meekness. But it was still the Org that ordered him to appear in Sora's path. Kinda like a sacrificial lamb or a scapegoat. That way, if Demyx was destroyed, it gives you the arguments of Sora being out for Org blood and everything that happens after that is justified for the Org.

In other words, yes, Demyx is a victim, but it was the Org's fault for putting him there in the first place.

What do you mean he defeated Saix by himself? Donald and Goofy participated in that fight as distractions. (or backup healers). My point is they still assisted him. And I also said "destroy" not "defeat." Defeating would be like that Roxas fight. Roxas still lived afterwards. Destroying would be like the Org members he took out.

I've played FF7 and managed to equip my Materia in such a way, it automatically gave Barret 7777 status. Every single time. Sephy didn't even have a chance to attack. :D But back on topic. Donald and Goofy served as distractions (as I said above). If you hacked those two into the fight, Sephy will target them first which leaves him wide open for Sora. Not for very long, but it's still a window of opportunity.

But Sora still needed assistance. He wouldn't have been able to defeat...excuse me...destroy or even reach Jafar without its help. Sora would've probably just been shooting Blizzaga spells from the rooftops in the hopes it would reach Jafar. Kinda like a peashooter versus a tank.

And yet they tweaked the circumstances to their own advantage. The Org worked for their own selfish reasons (their "race") while Sora was trying to protect the world order (not for himself, but for everybody else).

That's my point. Has Sora ever destroyed a boss without assistance? He can't Drive without Donald or Goofy. (Limit Form doesn't count as it wasn't in Sora's original repertoire.) And Mickey always comes in to save his keister if he's knocked out. Name one boss in KH2 that Sora was able to destroy single-handedly without any assistance whatsoever. (Luxord doesn't count either.)

That comment made me secretly loathe Kairi. Hence why I torment her (in more ways than one) in my stories. :) But back to the topic on hand. And I still stand by my "destroy" not "defeat" statement.

It's in my user profile, girl friend. And if you've read my stories, you'd know without a doubt. :sly:

Thanks. Because right now you have access to information that we can't use, so trying to argue points that are covered in the novels pretty much gives you an unfair advantage.