Kingdom Hearts II Was Sora justified? *Spoiler*

*AcK!!! Stumbles slightly, then regains his stance*

You really thought this one out huh?

Ok... How about this... *Goes back into his combatative stance*

1) Xemnas does express the desire to be friends. Sora seems to be willing to fight them from the get go. I the attack is a proof of concept test. Sora got plenty of opportunities to talk later, but opted to fight every time.

2) I believe Demyx was on a mission about Hades, and needed the Olympus stone to confront him. I dont think confronting Hades was a bad thing. Perhaps they were trying to take away the Heartless he controled, so they could sacrifice them to Sora.

3) Also, every battle your suposed to win you die if you lose. Demyx was deffinitaly not fighting all out. He was holding back.

4) The conversation: Is it so bad that Sora is supposed to kill heartless? He is going to do that anyway. Why do you want the heartless to win over the nobodies? The nobodies are humans, the heartless are animals.

5) I think Xemnas is going emo right there. How can telling Sora to kill heartless, something he's going to do anyway, hurt him?

6) It still looks like cotton candy to me... but ok, you got a point. How about this revised theory... nobodies cannot release the hearts of a Heartless. But, those with the strongest hearts can. No one in the game is stronger, or has a stronger heart than Sora. So, basically he is the perfect candidate to release all those hearts. They can throw any heartless at him they choose, and he can take them all out. Whereas, Cloud or Leon might falter. In essence, they are sparing thier lives by choosing Sora.


Finally: Equalizer? With me and *TwilightNight* together, you still have us outnumbered. Its Kentucky, Destinies Force, and Pika_power versus us two. And you want Repliku too?

I was debating all four of you by myself for a while. Although... I do want Repliku to rejoin the arguement...

 

Need a recharge...

Since yesterday. :sly: I figured I wouldn't have been able to do any critical hits with conventional means. Unfortunately, that's all the proof I've got at the moment. The rest I'll have to back up with canon...until I can find another ***** in your armor. :D

No. He summoned the Keyblade to defend himself if need be. That one time he was attacked in front of the train station pretty much sealed his opinion on the Nobodies. And it didn't help when the Org laughed at him before teleporting away. Think. If you had just been attacked and found out it was all a big prank, wouldn't you have some desire to get even? Screwing around by attacking the town's defenses isn't exactly the best way to make friends.

Like I said before, the Organization has as much opportunity to talk with him if vice versa was true. Sora couldn't really do anything to them at the Bailey. He was down there and the Org was up on that ledge. Sora wouldn't have even ran after them if they hadn't decided to flee right at that moment. That was their fault, not Sora's.

Well, that would've been a hopeless cause. In the second visit to the Underworld, Sora and co. have to get back Auron's soul self back. What happens immediately after they grab it and turn to leave? Dusks come out and surround them. And when they keep on coming, who comes to Sora's rescue? The Heartless. That goes to show that Hades wouldn't have even given Demyx a thought even if he had went there to talk to Hades.

Of course he was holding back. Just like Axel was holding back the first time. It was just another one of those so-called "tests" you keep bringing up. :sideways:

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said the Heartless should win. If that were true, we'd be trying to justify Sora's actions in KH1. And there's a thin line between humans and animals. The only difference is sentience.

Read it again. Xemnas wanted Saix to get Sora to doubt himself. The more Sora doubts himself, the less of a threat he is to the Organization. They wanted Sora angry and to turn that anger against the Heartless. Either that or they were trying to get Sora's heart full of rage and anger so they could split him into Anti-Sora and Roxas again just like Xaldin was doing with Beast...which kinda makes sense when you think about it.

Ha. Good one. What about ol' Sephy? He had more or just as much power as Cloud. And he was already a denizen of darkness.

As long as I have some ammunition left, I find this debate pretty fun. (That and this also increases our post count for every attack we use. ;) )

 

I actually don't think sora took it the right way... all they wanted to do was to be... like whats wrong with that. Sora was not justified, just like in the first game - he thinks he has been but no

 

I think that there are going to be more than one Organization. Just for the fact that, when MORE strong hearts become Heartless....its just going to create more strong Nobodies.

If Heartless exist, so will nobodies. End of that.

 

okay, fine. The org does not know Sora is a dunce. But Just like the org are nobodies, Sora is human, and it is his natural reaction to fight if they threaten his friends. Reversible or not, Xaldin was manipulating Beast, causing emotional harm.

Hmm? DiZ seemed pretty certain that it was important to get the hearts out. He seemed distressed at the time his machine blew it up and doomed the hearts to being heartless, (I have not seen the movie recently, do not quote me on that) so I assume his goal was to save the hearts, not purely to disrupt the org's plans.

Also, the hearts at the end, that was what the machine did. The hearts were unstable, and falling. A power source needs to have a way of generating power. The hearts were not generating energy, they were the energy. Energy is not unlimited, it needs to be produced. So I assume it would be a use the power up type of thing, otherwise, why not use one heart? If the energy it contained could be used over and over...

The real kingdom hearts is a great power, it is the purest light, the heart of all worlds. The thing the org made. Would you consider that the heart of all worlds? It does not follow the rules for the strongest light, it does not reside in darkness. (TWTNW is nothing, remember?)

I think that is reasonable. At school, if someone untrustworthy asks for my gameboy/lunch/books, I refuse to give it to them. The org certainly qualify for untrustworthy.

Also, the hearts usually become dormant/go to the original KH. The org redirects this to their machine. See above for why I think this is bad.

But really, the org has not made themselves trustworthy to Sora, he has had them attacking him, them stealing from him, people telling him how bad they are. Also, he has been told that one of the org is related to the guy who unleashed a wave of heartless. Stupid or not, he can join the dots and realize that giving millions of hearts to that guy just might not be the best idea.

I know they are nobodies, I was being sarcastic, not realistic.

Also, Luxord had to make the heartless. It was an emblem one. As for sending it for Sora to kill, well I think that it is rather nasty, don't you? Even if Sora can handle it, the org has no right to make more heartless, purely to attack Sora!

Not nice either. Sora only killed Demyx, in a battle rage, before that. (Xaldin doesn't count, he antagonized Sora and Beast. I can hardly say he did not ask for it)
So if the Org is blocking Sora from millions of hearts in danger, Sora had to break through. Also, they were trying to kill him. Death to either the org or Sora. Sora won. I could argue that he did not plan to kill them until they attacked him there.

Hmm. Okay, I will leave this where it stands, as we seem to have different understandings of the words "create a new world" I read "New world" as replacing the old one. I may have been wrong. But creating a world is a selfish kind of thing. Sora had no obligation to help with this, did he? Also see response one to why I think the hearts would die.

The org were disrupting the peace. Falling under Sora's duty to stop them. As for the battle rage, Sora is not perfect. He forgot about his friends for a brief moment. Hardly calls for him to be the essence of sin, right? It was blood lust, nothing more.

You can understand Sora right? First off, he has slight prejudice because of subconscious experiences in castle oblivion, and as Roxas. Then Mickey directs him to Yen sid, his tutor. Yen sid then tells Sora that nobodies are bad, a though Sora has no trouble believing, as nobodies were attacking him on the way to the tower. He sees the org attacking hollow Bastion. Still no countersigns that he was wrong. Mickey re-enforces the idea of the org being bad. Throughout this, the org has done nothing to try to explain to Sora that there is something more to their plans. So, why should Sora need to do more research? What other sources are there? The org did not ever talk, the first person he met yelled incoherent things at him, then tried to kill him with water.

By secrets I mean emblem heartless. Also, by interested in hearts I meant that they collapsed many hearts to darkness before finally giving up their own. (admittedly this was only the main 6...)

But Sora does not know they are only trying to get him to harvest hearts. He sees it as a real threat, as it is if he ignored it. The thing is, Sora acted rationally. In the past game, people attacked cities with heartless randomly. These people did the same. Why not treat them the same?

He never gets the chance to kill Xemnas. Xemnas always sent the rest of the org to deal with Sora. Also, as soon as Xemnas saw Sora as a threat (which he would, as he has multiple forms and lives) he would hide and call the rest of the org to fight Sora.

The most talking the org did was "Hahahaha! you are puny!" or "Roxas, come back to us"

Admittedly Sora did not make an enormous amount of effort to talk. Quite frankly, because the org were rather stubborn. They enslaved his heart in castle Oblivion, so when he attacked Axel on floor 13, it does not count, as he was following the heart they gave him.

All other times, the org appeared to do battle, and were not given orders to talk.

If I remember correctly (probably not :( ) the org appears in Hollow Bastion, and Sora yelled out "who are you" or something like that.

Xemnas speaks in riddles anyway. They came close to the issue at the end. The most I got out of it was that Xemnas was trying to be eternal.

Keeping her locked up? Nothing? Pah. If they lock up Sora's girlfriend (or whatever) then they can expect for him to be slightly mad. She was not free to leave, Namine had to break her out. (Riku may have helped)

In the world of KH, losing your heart is like death. Two people, one a princess of heart, the other a keyblade wielder (Kairi and Sora) have returned from the brink of darkness. I would say that turning someone into a heartless is somewhat permanent. You still need to hunt down and kill the heartless and Nobody. Also, the procedure seems very distressing.

Heartless experimentation. More nobody experimenting, manipulating. Pretty much the same old stuff. There could be another split. Sora and Riku might be the pawns. Again. (The split had nothing to do with the heart gathering)

No, they died because they tried to manipulate an idiot and it backfired.

Kentucky chiken or whatever his name is looks like he was spamming. ICSP, a small rule of the internet is unless you are discussion Time travel, references to the time space continuum are BS.

So it is indeed you and the Twilight against Destiny and a Pokemon.

 

I am so turning this into a book. It'll make millions!

 

If you check my mega-post above, you'll see the sequence that you're talking about. ;)

 

How many people do you think actually reads those long posts?

 

I think both sides made mistakes.

I don't blame the Organization for wanting their hearts back, but I don't like the way they did it. Instead of being manipulative, they could have simply asked Sora for help. But if they thought that was the only way, then I can understand why they did it.
I'm not saying it's ok, I just understand why they did it.

Sora wasn't perfect either. He was a bit more agressive than he should have been, and he should have maybe listened a little more before killing them off.

Now, on the issue of Demyx:
Sure stealing the Ollympus Stone wasn't the best choice, but is it really worth killing him over? Or was he killed just because he was a nobody?
(*gasp!* discrimination?)

I do agree that ones like Saix and Xemnas needed to be gotten rid of,
but ones like Demyx and Axel didn't really hurt anybody
(except for Phil and Kairi, but Phil was fine and Axel let Kairi go.)​

I read the ones that look interesting.​

 

Well...

Listened to who, exactly? Yen Sid? Axel? Because as far as I can see, the Organization didn't exactly want to talk despite all the opportunities to explain themselves.

Nuh-uh. Demyx may have been following orders, but he had the opportunity to talk to Sora right there. Or was there another reason of why he did the whole water clone bit before giving up the Olympus Stone?

Demyx knocked Phil out while fleeing. As for Kairi, Axel didn't let her go. He said:

I'm assuming that maybe she went and did a crotch shot and made her escape, only to be taken by Saix. Axel would've held onto Kairi as long as possible.

 

The thing is, Demyx also associated with the org.

How about we look at it another way.

Demyx steals stone, yells at Sora incoherantly, attacks Sora. Not good points for Demyx.

Sora then experiences many attacks from the org.

Then Demyx Appears in front of Sora, coming between him and his friends. (The stuff Sora yelled at the end was just the battle lingering) Demyx yells strangly a bit more at Sora, then turns around and instead of Dark portally out of there with a luagh, he says "I told them I wasn't the best choice for this" suggesting the org wanted Demyx to attack, and he was under orders. Then he seals his fate by saying "Silence traitor!" and putting up that forcefield thing and attacking Sora.

 

I'm not trying to justify any mistakes Demyx may have made, I'm just asking Did Sora really have to be so rude and then kill him? Was death really nessecary in this situation?

As for the rest of the Organization, I'm pretty much neutral.​

 

Personally, i think that Sora was justified in killing the Organisation. They were messing around with his head, and gave him no choice but to kill heartless (overwise, they would just overwelm the world and get at its heart).

 

*I will try a new tactic*

Ok... Pika_power, and Destiny's Force... you guys are missing a key point.

Heartless are emotionless entities that run on instict. They are not sentient, they have no feelings, they do not have emotions. The sole reason for thier existance is to destroy all that is good, and consume it with darkness. They are only capable of evil, not good.

Nobodies are emotionless entities that run on intelect. Though they have no emotions, they do have feelings (physical), and they are sentient. They are capable of both good and evil. With hearts, they would be even more capable of good. Thier sole purpose for existance is to restore thier hearts.

Ok... now, both of you said Sora had to choose between the lesser of two evils. Which would you rather live?

Keep in mind, that the only way to foil OrgXIII's goals is to let many heartless run rampent accross the worlds, consuming countless more hearts.

Before you can continue this arguement... you have to justify letting countless heartless live for the soul purpose of destroying nobodies.

(I almost feel like yelling "ITS OVER 9000!")

 

Is that it?

You almost had me there for a moment. But then I remembered. You said it yourself. Heartless run on instinct. Nobodies have a choice. Heartless will always exist as long as there's darkness in people's hearts. There's no exterminating them. In the KH world, Heartless are a fact of life. However:

In other words, Nobodies are limited. And since they're sentinent, they have a choice. It's pretty much like justifying between the actions of an ant and a human. Ants run on instinct and they'll always multiply and exist no matter how hard you try to kill them. Humans are in limited number. They have sentience, free will and choices. And not all beings who become a Heartless leave behind Nobodies. Only ones who have a strong will and heart can become a Nobody. And since they have free will to choose what they do with their existence, they're liable for their actions.

Oh, and by the way, you're also forgetting the difference between a regular Heartless and an Emblem Heartless. All of the Heartless that the Org has been sending after Sora are all Emblem Heartless. In other words, they made the Heartless themselves. Shadows don't count because they're the basic of the basic, so they don't need persuading.

 

I do not see your defence here...

Yeah... but if I kill an ant because its threatening my life... no one would care, and everyone would wonder how in the world an ant got that powerful.

However, if someone orders me to kill an ant, and tells me that the ant is the key to his survival, and I refuse, and instead opt to kill him, then I am evil. Everyone would linch me.

Even if the person bred ants.

Even if the man was doing genetic experiments to super size the ant... I would not be justified in killing the man, especially if I let the ant live, just so I could kill the man.

 

What the...

Depends on the frequency and type of ant. The quantity matters. If it's only one harmless one and you kill it, of course no one would care. However, if it's a poisonous or fire ant, then people WOULD care.

If someone ordered you to kill one ant for the sake of their survival, wouldn't you be asking yourself, WHY doesn't he kill it himself? Are you really saying that if the person who ordered you to kill that ant wouldn't be capable of doing it themselves?

Oh, and people who play around with ants in the first place deserve what they get for being careless.

EDIT: This also applies to the genetic experiments as well.

 

Oh Em Gee!!!

So wait... if a deadly poisoness ant stings someone... and are bleeding... and they ask you to drive them to the hospital... you would say...

Dude... thats harsh...

 

Depends on the situation. If they were the ones hanging around the genetically altered ant in the first place and actually are aware of their presence, then yeah, they shouldn't have been so reckless. And shame on them for sticking around in a place that had a killer mutant ant in the first place.

But if they just happened to be stumbling around and they got hit, then no, they didn't deserve it.

And before you go into the argument, the Heartless were the ones who created the Organization in the first place, keep in mind that the first six disciples CHOSE to do this to themselves.

I'm going to assume your next argument would be about the other seven members. We don't know how they came to be except Roxas. They could've been victims. But they still chose to join the Organization's cause. Even if it meant toying with two teenagers with oversized weapons.

 

Actually no... I'm still waiting for you to say "I would rather watch real people die, and let heartless live, than help the Organization."

Sora said that, and showed it... so if your going to justify Sora, you have to justify the above quote.

I would say scientist who got burned by thier own experiment dont deserve to die.