I put this in the discussion thread, not the debate corner, nor the game chat corner for a reason. I do not wish to debate the game from the angl of a gamer, but rather, from an outside perspective. Nor do I want to argue or debate opinions, but share them. I wanted to exchange opinions on this. But first I will give a link to what the game generally is and why I think it may be racist. For those of you unfamiliar with Warhammer 40,000, commonly known as Warhammer 40k, I will explain a quick summary. It is a turn based strategic Table Top type game. It takes place in a dystopian future, where human kind is the dominant species in the universe, but is surrounded by aggressive and violent alien races. Its actually kinda a science fiction parrallel to Warhammer Fantasy Battle. A table top game which takes place in midieval myth and legend. As such, many alien races in Warhammer 40k, have parallels in Midieval mythological warfare. For example, the Eldar, are very similar to Elves, but with interspace flight technology. They are especially similar to High Elves of myth. Wheras there are Dark Eldar, which have parallel of Dark Elves. There are the Ork, which are basically identical to Orcs of myth, granted, with a much higher level of technology such as automatic weapons. There are some unique races in Warhammer 40k, which dont have direct comparison, such as Tyranid, Chaos Space Marines, Tau, ect. Now... this is all fine and dandy... Until you look at it from a different angle. I never played the game myself, but I have always been interested. Lack of people close to me being active players is mainly why I delayed actually investing time and money into this game for years. Regardless, I still read deeply into the lore. Now, here is where it gets creepy: The God Emperor and Chaos According to Warhammer 40k lore, the empire of mankind was built by a major character. The God-Emperor of Mankind. He launched what would become known as "The Great Crusade". He went from planet to planet of the Human Empire, "cleansing" them of "Chaos". Chaos in general refers to a demonic undercurrent in Warhammer lore, the believe that deamons who live in another dimension are secretly trying to take over our universe by currupting our bodies and minds with Chaos. To aide him in this Crusade. He cloned himself, creating the Space Marine Batallion. Yes... he created an army of "Perfect" humans to aide himself in ridding mankind of inperfections. In largely succeeding in his crusade, eventually the Emperor of Man is worshipped as a God. Now, in the Warhammer 40k universe, this threat is of Chaos very real. Entire batalions have been currupted by this Chaos, and can be turned into bloodthirsty mindless berzerkers, zombies, giant mutants and all sorts of other monstrocities. However, the Emporer set out to cleans ALL influences of Chaos. He killed everyone who possessed any form of mutations which could be seen outwardly. Following suit, any one who gives birth to a mutated child, is very prompt to abandon or kill them. Eventually, some of his Space Marines themselves are currupted by Chaos, and succeed in killing the Emperor. Alien Races: I read in a troll like wiki called "uncyclopedia" that each non space marine race was supposed to represent. However, this was written sarcastically, but when I read it through, I realized how true it could be. First off, its considered Heracy against the Emperor, and punishable by death, if any human cooperates with any alien race. As such, a vast majority of humankind would rather die than cooperate with the Tau or Eldar. The few who do, are subject to Death Squads, who will kill all who cooperate with aliens. Tyranid, Necron and Ork are too indiscriminate in thier slaughter to cooperate with humans. Eldar are described as a race who survived numerous tragedies, which brought them from being the richest and most powerful civilization, to now, almost completly extinct. Those who survived will do anything to survive. As such: The Space Marines, and humans in general view them as extreamly untrustworthy, and will battle them with the intent on erradicating thier species. The website compared the Eldar to the modern Country of Israel. It doesnt give reasons why, being a random spam based wiki, but I do believe the reason for this assumption can easily be justified. After the Halocaust, Jewish people survived a great tragedy which dwindled thier number. And now, they are fighting for the very survival of thier people. The Tau have a very communist idealogy. They believe in "The Greater Good" in that if all species cooperate and work together, a greater good can be achieved through equality. They believe in a caste based system where the government puts everyone into what caste fits them best, and they all serve to expand thier empire, and work towards the greater good. A few humans have cooperated with the Tau, and as such, are considered heratics, and will be killed if ever they tried to return to the human empire. The Orks are very primative and violent. Based rather tightly on the classic midieval fantasy Orc. They speak primatively and possess rather low inteligence. None the less, they are tough, and numerous, making them a threat to anyone they deal with. Thier instinct, society, and religion are are based on warfare. Uncyclopedia compared them to "black people" based on their crude way of talking, calling it "ebonics". I do not see this comparison so easily. But alas, I will put it out there. Imperial Guard: Finally, there is the Imperial Gaurd. The Imperial Gaurd makes up the majority of the human military. They are normal, ordinary humans without power suits. They fight in large numbers, and deploy rather powerful tanks. The Uncyclopedia article described them as "everything bad in every other minority". I dissagree however. If they are to be looked at in such a light, I would compare them more redily to the Nazi army. Observe: Below, I have a picture of a high ranking Imperial Guard Commisar and a Nazi Officers Uniform. Note the similarities, albiet the Commisars uniform is greatly exagerated. Spoiler The Space Marines themselves: Heres whats really wierd: The Space Marines are basically clones of thier Primarch. The Primarchs are drawn from the DNA of the perfect human, the Emperor. And thier goal (except those who were currupted by Chaos) is to erradicate all forms of Chaos, and Alien life. Yes, complete and total genocide of everything non human, and even mutations and disloyalty of humans. At the core of the Space Marines, is the Ultramarines. The most balanced, powerful and versetile force within the Empire. According to the makers of the game, they based the Ultramarines off the Roman Legions in the prime of the Roman Empire. Whats really wierd about that is, Adolf Hitler based the Nazi Army off the Roman Legions as well, viewing his empire as the "Third Riech", or Third Rule of the Romans. My Closing thoughts: I am really conflicted about this. Dispite all the evidence I do not have an opinion. I wanted to discuss this. I am unsure if Warhammer 40,000 is intentionally and deliberatly racist, and in directly emulating the political opinions of the writers, or, if it was completly coincidental that they tried to draw humans trying to create the perfect society, and under various threats from different sources, both internal and external. Both seem like a stretch. What is your opinion? I am unsure which is more accurate, I am having a hard time believing that some sort of Neo Nazi wrote out the lore. Then again, it is a rather large set of coincidences.
And the "Good Guys" are trying to erradicate any and all other races in a neverending genocide, and while they are at it, they are going to "crusade" against the imperfections within thier own race.
Racism happens in real life. That they would make characters in their game go on a crusade against aliens and the like does not make this game racist propaganda. Basically, you're saying any video game or film that has one race not like another is instantly trying to be racist itself. Why would that be the case at all? Back to my original point, racism happened throughout history. This could simply be a historically based game. Also, uncyclopedia.
Yes, depending on how you define 'racist'. Personally, I think of it as the developers intending to deliver a message based on generalisation of race, and not any other attribute. This is where it gets fuzzy, because you're playing with intent. Firstly, it must be proved that the race-generalising undertones exist at all. Secondly, the actual intent of the undertones must be established as being a reflection of the authors' ideologies. Essentially, almost everything ICSP/Chaser mentions is true, in terms of the content. The only place I will deny is that of the Orks; they are based off of cockney British, not a stereotypically black dialogue. So if the undertones exist, do they reflect the ideologies of the authors? I do not believe so. The setting of 40k is primarily grimdark. The parallels between the Space Marines to the Nazis is uncanny, but it is not to deliver a message of 'the Nazis were right'. Instead, I believe the intent of the message is, "The Nazis were horrible, but they were small-fry compared to what humanity has become". While the Space Marines are portrayed as the humans, and are thus considered 'the good guys', this point of view is the one that the readers choose to take due to empathising with the Space Marines as humans, not due to the one being forced upon them by the developers. The other races do portray characteristics of modern-day races, but they are never outright and entirely said to be 'the bad guys'. Tau are communists, and they use clean giant robots. Certainly, it sounds Asian or Oriental, and yes, they are enemies of humanity. However, the players are encouraged to empathise and even play as the Tau. The Codices of the individual races do not portray them negatively. They are given heroic attributes and narrative, just as the Space Marines are in their own codices. As such, we cannot conclude that the intention was to render Asia in a negative light. The same can be carried over to the idea of Chaos, only slightly differently. Space Marines use tactics against Chaos highly reminiscent of tactics used against the Jews by the Nazis, but Chaos lacks suitably Jewish attributes for it to be argued that the intent was to promote anti-Semitism. It gives the Nazis too high a status to credit them with the conception of genocide. To put it another way, Nazi Germany never released propaganda of "How the successful Jew made lots of friends and lived a successful life". The propaganda was purely derogatory. The material in 40k does not portray the fictional races so one-sidedly.
Is Warhammer 40k racist? No, personally I don't think so. First off, The Imperium of Man is often summed up by the fanbase as being "Catholic Space Nazis". So more or less the Nazi comparision is basiclly stating the frickin' obvious. The Emperor's killing of mutants may seems bad but think about this, Chaos corruption is often identifiable by the mutation it gives people (for example, ANYONE WHO WORSHIPS ANY OF THE CHAOS GODS (especially Tzeentch, he gives out mutations like an Ice Cream man gives out Dove bars on a hot sunny day in the Sahara desert.)) and Chaos is overall the most evil faction in all of Warhammer 40k. But the Emperor didn't kill every mutation, for example the Ratlings (Space Hobbits) and Ogryns of the Imperial Guard, and before being OM-NOM-NOM-NOM'd by the Tyranids there was an ENTIRE playable army of Subhumans called the Squats (Space Dwarves) and they worked for the Imperium. As to why he created the Primarchs and Space Marines, well, let's be honest would want to fight armies of zombie Terminators (Necrons), Psychotic Space Dark Elves, regular Space Elves, Daemons, and battle hungry green monsters with an army of everyday humans (Imperial Guard) or and army of super soliders who are pretty much each a one man army (Space Marines)? The Emperor was one of the most powerful beings in Warhammer 40k, so an army of super soliders lead by his almost equally powerful cloned sons makes sense. The Imperial Guard is pretty much a mixure of various Modern Militaries. Attilan Rough Riders are based on Mogels, the Catachans who are based on both sides in the Vietnam conflict, the Valhallans and Vostroyans are based on the Red Army and the Imperial Russian Army (respectivly), the Steel Legion and Death Korps of Krieg, both based on the World War II era german army to various degrees, etc. Now Commisars while they're look IS based on Nazi Officers (just look at those nice hats), they are more or less based on the sterotypical potrayal of Russian Commisars (i.e. executing troops for cowardice, incompetance, not being soluted properly etc.). As for the alien races... well... First rule of Warhammer 40k, there is no "Good" race/faction just less evil. Eldar for example are only slightly less evil then the Imperium. Eldar will gladly kill a thousand human if it would save even ten Eldar down the line. Hell one Eldar said that once they rule the galaxy again they will kill every human, which is likely never going to happen considering they are a dying race that is slowly being whittled down by combat losses and Slaanesh. In spite of their fall from being a colossal empire that ruled before Mankind was a space faring race, the hubris of the Eldar, and their legendary disdain for every single bit of life that isn't an Eldar remains completely unchanged, and the race as a whole has a superiority complex that would put the most egotisical human being alive to shame. The Tau are probably the closest thing the setting has to a neutral or even good faction. That is, if you ignore the fact that their entire race is being mind controlled by their leaders. Also the Tau's plans for humanity include forced sterility, slave camps, and genocide. The best part? They're still the only thing close to a good race the game has. As for the Orks, the whole "they're black people" comparision is so wrong that it can best be compared to missing the broad side of a barn and some how setting your own balls on fire. If Orks have a parallel in any historical army, it is of a vast barbarian horde scouring the land in a tide of howling violence mixed with English football hooligans. Their accents are more or less very thick british accents, this is elevant when they use English slang such as "git" or "gob". While Orks are not the most intelligent race in the galaxy they are by no means all stupid, there are some smart orks (well as smart as an ork can get), these Ork are pretty much all Warboss however. And speaking of black people, they do exist in the Warhammer 40k universe they are just rather hard to come by. In the Dawn of War II games there is Jonah Orion who is a black Librarian of the Blood Ravens chapter Space Marines. The Slamanders chapter of Space Marines are an all black chapter, however by black I mean black, pitch black and they have blood red irises. They're not actually "Black" though. Their gene-seed has a mutation that causes their eyes to glow and also makes their skin onyx-coloured. The Bio-Augmentation of Space Marines allows their skin pigment to alter based on the local radiation; the Salamanders have the gland responsible stuck in constant over-drive. Given the weak magnetosphere of their homeworld though, it is likely that most, if not all, of their aspirants are already dark skinned. That said, the Salamanders chapter are among the nicer forces in the Imperium.
P, Burnitup, thanks for participating in the discusion and providing information. Burnitup: I do believe the trait of having any sign of insubordination be a death penalty can not only be associated with the Russian Commisar, but also the Nazi forces themselves during WWII. P: For the record, I said I myself disagreed with the refference to Orks being Black People. I always viewed them as bully types.
You're welcome. Well I did say sterotypical potrayal. I haven't heard information of a Nazi officers killing his own troops, but I could be wrong. Also here's a quote: "One of the more distinctive aspects of the Imperial Guard army is its Commissars. They are represented as akin to the ruthless, political commissars of the former Soviet Union." - Wikipedia
Good sighting... Also, P, burnitup: I have a question about the Chaos Marines. Of all the races portrayed, they are the only ones portrayed as purely evil. My question is: Do they have a good side? At all? If not, I fear that the game itself may not deliberatly racist, but actually function as racist propaganda. Racist propaganda, as sighed eartler, is always one sided and biased. It portrays the target of the racism as cruel, evil, unholy, stupid, and otherwise, a source of curruption. The Nazi's were particularly good at this in thier efforts to slander the Jewish population. What I find most disturbing, is the killing of Mutants. As stated in Warhammer 40k wiki, not all mutants are signs of chaos worship. Many are simply genetic mutations, which deviate from the "Normal" standards of man. The Empire has a policy of either abandoning or executing mutants. Forcing many of them to become pariahs. Of this group, some, actually do devote themselves to Chaos, some live peaceful isolated lives, others simply die off. How this relates to real life? Racism in the past, has ALWAYS highlighted the differences between "Us" and "Them". And outright hate propaganda, often portrays "them" as a danger to "us". Many mutants are not threats to the Empire, and if not discriminated against, they could very well be great loyalist to the Empire. I just find it alarming that racist propaganda is being used in a game. Granted, in the world of fiction, the threats are real. But someone with racist tendancies could very well become a racist extreamist, if he takes the game out of context. For example, say someone is not truly a racist, but they do harbor some racial prejudices. Say they are a Space Marine player. Since its shown that to an extent, people can be impressioned upon by fiction, whats to keep this from harboring his racism? Say the subject who harbors racial tendancies, one day has an epiphany, "The Emperor is right! If something threatens us, we have the divine right to alienate it, and fight against it! People of (insert minority group here) are a threat to me!" And bam! Someone is motivated to commit violence. Granted the above story is a bit far fetched... Secondly, in story, Humans may in fact be hurting themselves with thier policy on genocide against any form of mutation and xeno life. They do have a tolerance towards non physical mutations (except Black Templar), and utilize psychic mutants in thier army. I look firstly to the Chaos Marines. Specifically, Obliterators. Why? Obliterators are not loyal to the Chaos forces, but rather, serve as mercinaries for them. Why? They possess a mutation which causes thier bodies to fuse to weaponry and armor. Because this mutation is considered a "disease" to humankind, they are alienated. Whats a trained soldier with weapons literally fused into thier bodies to do for a living? Not many carreer choices exist, so they serve as mercinaries. But to who? Well, the only forces known to man who would tolerate, or even embrace such a mutation are Chaos Marine legions. Third, by outright refusing to cooperate with the Tau and Eldar, the Empire has allowed Chaos to become well, more chaotic. The Chaos forces would not be able to stand against an allied front of the above races, who are fully capable of cooperating. But divided, they can easily overpower them individually when the tactical advantage favors them.
Let me explain Chaos. Chaos leads untold millions down the path of corruption, and the noblest of intentions offers little protection against its influence. A soldier’s bloodlust, a politician's ambition, a lover’s desire, and even a mother’s whispered prayer over her feverish child – they are all the playthings of the Chaos Gods. Many join Chaos with the noblest of goals and the best of intentions: to protect those they love, to make the world a better place, to stand against the tyranny and cruelty of the Imperium. Many fall. Many more die trying. Hardly any of them live to see their original dream fulfilled, in a form they would still recognize, and remain uncorrupted enough to care. Heck, 3 of the 4 Chaos Gods do not give even one s(guitar riff) about their followers: Khorne just wants blood to be spilled regardless of who's blood is being spilled, Slaanesh is a Hedonist who just wants to experiance pleasure even at the expence of his/her followers, and Tzeentch treats all of his followers as pawns in his plans (he's also the God of Hope). Nurgle is the God of Pestilance, Decay, Despair, and Destruction and he and his followers are by far the most friendly. Oh, they're still evil, don't get me wrong, but Nurgle loves his followers, he really does (Hell, they even call him Papa or Granfather Nurgle). It just so happens he shares his love by infecting his followers with so much disease they end up a bloated rotting zombie-like thing which is in so much pain that it can't feel any other pain. And they love it. Other servants of Chaos are intensely suffering or blindingly insane or "merely" a mindless spawn, but Nurgle followers genuinely enjoy being followed by clouds of plague flies and having their organs dragging on the ground. In the fluff, you'll almost always see them joking or having a good time. At one point, after a POW gave up and agreed to worship Nurgle, his jailer just smiled and hugged him. Nurgle himself even saved the Eldar Goddess of Healing, Isha, from Slaanesh after hearing the pleas from her followers. Now he keeps her in a cage in his Garden and infects her with his newest plague to see how long it takes for her to heal (he does love her however so its all good).
It' s racist propaganda, therefore illegal, only if it depicts a racist society as being ideal, or at least as being a good one. I don' t know this game, but from what I' ve read in this thread the world of W40K doesn' t look ideal at all. Egotistic rulers dividing to conquer, how refreshing ! Anyway, depicting a racist society (or any society that puts the blame for its problems on a scapegoat) in a fiction is the best way to denounce it and expose its flaws. It' s also a cautionary tale as to how and why people have let such societies emerge in the past. One would think that such a lesson should already be learned by now, but History has a way of repeating itself. If some people are dumb enough to see some appeal in such societies when they are depicted in all their glorious horror then they are dumb enough to have stupid ideas on their own sooner or later. Don' t blame the book they read, the movie they watched or the game they played, blame them; they' ve been to school and should know better. Besides, isn' t censorship one of the most beloved and trusted tool of scapegoat-society rulers ?
Racist propaganda is not illegal in most societies. Freedom of Speech is what it legally hides behind in America. Also, if I were to look at this from a cynical viewpoint, I'd say that the 40k world is extreamly racist. And, is thriving dispite this. Also, the "other races" of xenos, and the "genetic weaknesses" of Chaos are the greatest threat to society, and the Empire of man continues to be the strongest by employing Nazilike, racist idealogies. Once again I highlight, I am not saying the game is deliberatly racist, but can be interpreted as such. @Burnitup: I know how Chaos works. By offering thier souls to Chaos, they gain imortality in our mortal world (never die of natural causes) but lose thier immortal souls to pure chaos and are put into a hell like afterlife when they die. The only exceptions are the Daemon Princes, whom all Chaos Loyalist aspire to become. But as I highlighted, Obliterators and many low ranking Chaos Mutants never offered thier souls to Chaos. But rather, serve the Chaos forces simply because they are unable to function anywhere else in the universe. The Empire of man will kill them for "heracy" even without evidence. The Tau will either psychically enslave them, or kill them for being "currupted by chaos" when that actually never happened, they just genetically mutated. The Eldar will kill them as a threat to thier race. Ork, Tyranid, and Necron are completely genocidal, and will kill any not of thier species without hesitation. So therefore, the Mutants and Obliterators can ONLY serve chaos. In fact, Obliterators do not pledge loyalty to Chaos, but rather only serve as mercinaries.
In america, its greatly frowned upon... but... its completely legal. Every once in a while... a LONG WHILE, there is a Nazi Party rally. Its kinda ironic that they end up the victims of mob violence in the United States. Police escort them as citizens throw things at them. Altho, the majority of us, including myself, are against racism, and even a bigger majority are against Nazism.
...Uh... To my understanding, which admittedly amounts to a bit of second-party research, that's the point of Warhammer 40k. The whole universe is dripping with satire, references to archetypal warlords and parodies of historical figures, and so on. The intent is to portray a world where the only way to survive is to be either a monster or a bastard. Yes, all the humans are prejudiced jerks; you're not supposed to like them for it. Not to mention there's not a whole lot of evidence for racism specifically: The things you've named are far more about politics and government than race. The uniforms bear only passing similarities. Very few of the symbols are repeated--no Swastika, for one--and the ones that they do share bear much broader interpretations than to link the two, e.g. skull motif. I don't see any similarities that I couldn't project onto any other military uniform. The assertion of explicit Nazi parallel strikes me as paranoid. That's a loaded statement. I'd wager that exploitation of the law occurs in nearly every society. Racist propaganda is not supported by the Constitution, nor specifically by freedom of speech; it is simply a syntactical loophole which radical types tend to abuse. The only thing I'll grant is that the issue remains murky thanks to politicians who refuse to draw the line, for fear of alienating potential voters. Which is a crappy strategy anyway, since most people tend to make up their minds one way or the other regardless. A grand bit of hypocrisy when one considers, for instance, the U.S. fiasco at the Rome Statute, where "we" forced a few critical compromises then eventually withdrew support anyway. You figure politicians would know how to deal with their own tricks... Eh, c'est la vie. Any rate, this is all digression.
I find that statement offensive and condisending. I was mearly stating that uncyclopedia was silly in stating that the commisars were "everything bad in every other minority." And I was stating if they were to represent a military faction, it would be very close to the Nazis. burnitup corrected me and sighted they were in fact WWII era Russian themed. I am only stating a fact here. I do not see how the above listed fact "loads" the statement. It is true. It is an exploitation of the law. But you know why? Because, the constitution was written so that people could not be oppressed. Ideas are open to discussion, even ones we do not like, nor want to hear. I do not promote racism, but I do promote freedom of speech. Why? If a racist commits a crime by spreading his bigotry because intelligent people do not want to hear it, then, what keeps intelligent people with liberal ideas from being charged with the same crime. If saying something someone else does not want to hear is a crime, I shudder to see what the media would look like... Any protest, even if issued a permit by the Government could be considered a crime.
You might want to use different wording than "hiding behind," then. Gives off a far more negative vibe than you seem to be wanting to convey.
