Kingdom Hearts II The "Nobody"

Roxas was shorter than Sora in KH2 which kind of showed that. Also Namine was smaller than Kairi. And another point is that Hayner that Roxas knew was from the fake Twilight Town, not the real one. They were not the real versions of themselves and only knew Roxas for 7 days and a faux few memories that were implanted. The point of the Nobodies was that they were existing off of basic willpower in the first place. There's nothing saying any of them changed at all from what their memories recalled. Xemnas doesn't look at all older than Xehanort. Ienzo didn't either from Zexion.

That's not that hard to show Darkness 'eats' things, and that they have bodies and such. Their bodies to me seemed mostly composed of darkness and some element such as fire, ice etc and their memories of what the soul would remember. I think they 'have' the stuff but it's not that 'vital' to them and when they are obviously damaged to a certain point, they dissipate their forms and well, all that remains is the Darkness. Also, the Nobodies can do some things humans can't. They probably all can bend and stuff like the 'lesser' Nobodies can.

Also, I really don't like the manga as much. It's more kiddy and ridiculous at points than the storylines in the games. There are serious points where it was just made to be a kawaii scene that makes me want to barf or things were tossed in there from who knows where as filler. Others like them, but I just think they are good reads but things inside aren't always 'canon'.

 

Hey Repliku- Sweet sanctified mother of crud! ... Howdy ya'll *chuckles* and I thought this topic would be dead, or people just been bored lately *smiles* Feel free to post here to your leisure. Im enjoying the Inner intellect of everyone.

 

I wasn't talking about the manga, I was talking about the Novels. The written ones where they show scenes that were taken out of KHII or couldn't make it in the game. Axel described the "pain in his ribs" when he was hurt by Saïx and resting in Naminé's lap, who saved him. And it has never been proven that they can bend and stuff like the lesser Nobodies. Some of them might be flexible, but I doubt they can do that. If not, that would have been a advantage, and they would have used it.

They have human bodies, no matter what the race. All I know is that they have to have bones, coming from Axel's comment, and maybe have their needed organs, despite not having a 'heart'.

Perhaps those same bones and organs are composed by solid darkness, who knows, but they all proved to be pretty normal considering the human body. There's really nothing in my mind that showed otherwise.

 

Okay, but you still don't get it that Zexion and Ienzo were the -same age- in appearance -in- KH2 and there's at least a 10 year span there since when they threw themselves into Darkness. Also, Roxas and Namine are notably a bit shorter than Kairi and Sora and younger looking, which is because they were formed a year prior.

There's nothing saying they could not do certain things but if you look at all the Nobodies that were controlled by the higher Nobodies, the ones each Nobody was linked to, their fighting styles and moves were similar. The Org Nobodies were human in form but some of their movements etc were definitely not so human, like floating around, the way some moved, appeared etc. I don't mean they can exactly duplicate the flexibility but I don't think their bodies were the exact same as humans. I'm also not saying that they have -no- organs etc. I'm just saying that their bodies are composed of different matter and so I doubt an injury for them plays out as it would for us. And they do appear to be frozen at the age they were turned. Otherwise, explain how Ienzo and Zexion look exactly the same and he's a teenager there. Also, Xemnas and Xehanort.

 

-Topics like these are fun to discuss at times. 8D-

In my opinion the physiology of a Nobody is really nothing physical but some unnatural blending of human body and something...ether-like (but not necessarily darkness). They clearly do not bleed and they most likely do not have "real" organs but rather they function on a level of "preceived normality" (more on that later). As for the original point of what makes up a Nobody...every part of them is composed of something aqaeous/wispylike in that even if something like hair is cut off, it disappears in a "poof of smoke" (refer to the extra scene with Axel nearly getting impaled by Xaldin's lance in the discussion room).

Now onto the "perceived normality"...I'm sure a better term exists for this, but I do not know what it is....anyway, as you know all Nobodies were at one point human. They also are able to clearly mimic emotions even though they are supposed to be deprived of them. The concept of "perceived normality" is that the soul/mind in a Nobody takes KNOWN reactions and supplements them into KNOWN stimuli. Example: You see an apple and you have eaten apples thousands of times before, so you take a bite of the apple and you expect the taste of an apple (based on color). In a way you could almost say I was suggesting the Nobodies were able to act according to whatever their soul/mind impulses were EVEN if they were not feeling them.

You may ask "well if that's true, why would they want hearts then if they can act with the stimuli?" My theory is that a metaphorical heart is necessary for facillitating the "feelings" for new experiences...which somewhat explains why the 'younger' Nobodies were more enthusiastic about getting back their hearts.

In regards to the Heartless...I just think of them as a watered down version of Id, aka the unrelenting selfish creature in everyone. So using that same methodology....I guess you could call the Nobodies the Ego and Those with Hearts to be of the Superego classification. (If you do not know what the Id, Ego and Superego are, wiki it...its a basic psychology term).

Anyway, that's my long-winded take on this...and I'd be more than happy to continue discussing it as well.

EDIT! I don't think the material Nobodies are made of decays in the same sense as say meat, but that it would still decay in some way unless it had a constant soul/mind/will to leech off of.

 

Yeah, that's pretty well how I feel about it. A normal 'body' isn't going to just dissapear and reappear somewhere in a Twilight zone after a Heartless consumes the body and Heart.

It makes more sense that the memory and soul/mind go on, the body is then formed from that memory of Darkness and an elemental force since all of them are strongly affiliated with elements. The ones that were said to have the strongest former Hearts were the ones who were higher Nobodies, according to the Ansem reports.

This doesn't mean to me that they didn't reform things but well, who in memory knows what a 'heart' or 'liver' inside looks like? You can feel your ribs and bones and such, the tongue, the teeth, the saliva etc. So of course that could be very similar to how it is remembered. Since they 'ate' formerly, they could duplicate that too and other functions, but I don't really see them as being able to get sick, age or really even alter their physical appearances that much. I almost look at it as a vampiric state of being frozen how they are in that manner.

 

I actually almost want to say that the reason why they look 'slightly' different would be because of how they perceived themselves based on memory...however you might bring up Roxas and Namine but then again they were exceptions to the rule.

Why they have affiliations with a certain element isn't clearly stated so that's up for debate. Personally I think it was the last thing they came into contact with before they lost their hearts...but one must then wonder how Xemnas came to possess "Nothingness".

 

Actually you are right though that they do -all- look slightly different from their original bodies. The only one that's hard to tell at all really is Xemnas from Xehanort but I imagine even there are changes for him. Master Yen Sid makes a comment on it too about how they come back as forms close to what they were before but not exact. Namine and Roxas look pretty well like Kairi and Sora except a bit smaller and their coloration, and hair style.

 

Hmm...actually there is one thing that bothers me that pertains to both Heartless and Nobodies...

How are things such as Twilight Thorns and Darksides produced? (Darksides are natural Heartless as they are missing the emblem....)

Another question is what happened to the other Org XI (Xemnas and Roxas excluded) Heartless?

Also....a question to ponder is that Xemnas in KH1: FM visited where his Heartless was, yet he didn't do anything to retrieve his heart from his Heartless. I wonder why would he do that? He clearly stated that having a heart would give him more power yet he didn't do anything to get it back when he had an ample chance....

Makes me wonder what the power limits of a Nobody are among other things.

 

Well, I pretty much agree with Zandyne on the theory about Nobodies' bodies and such, so I won't talk about that. I will attempt to answer some of the questions he posed, though.

Darkside, if you remember, was a special case, formed from Sora's shadow in the "Awakening" part of the first game. Or maybe it was made from the heart of someone with a lot of darkness. Because more darkness=stronger Heartless. The same is true for Twilight Thorn. In another thread, someone pointed out that there is a cloaked figure that transforms into the Thorn. (The figure is Roxas in his Org. cloak.) Or perhaps it was formed from someone with an especially strong heart, but not strong enough to make a human Nobody.

As for the Heartless of the rest of Organization XIII, I really can't say. It's most likely that they were part of the random hordes of Heartless that Sora slaughtered along his journey.

I haven't played FM, and I don't know much about it. I'm assuming that you can't battle Xemnas until after you beat Riku/Ansem. Which means that his Heartless is already gone. And think about it. There wouldn't be a KH2 if Xemnas retreived his heart in FM. :D

Another one of those things that makes sense, but didn't happen: Demyx has control over water, right? Enough control to make clones of himself and shoot geysers into the air. Instead of smacking Sora with a musical instrument, why didn't he just drown him? :P

 

Xehanort's Heartless was filled to the brim with darkness yet he was much smaller than Darkside....also Darkside(s) appear(s) when Sora and Riku are supposed to be closing the door to Kingdom Hearts (refer to the ending of KH1).

I believe you can fight Xemnas before you "really" beat Riku/Ansem. But really, he could have picked up his heart and still be looking for Kingdom Hearts.....I believe he was supposed to be good friends with the other five apprentices (No. II-VI).

And I agree...technically each of the Organization could have killed Sora with a one-hit move save for...probably Roxas (what was his element....LIGHT?).

Xemnas could clone himself (to some degree) and hold Sora whilst energy-ing away at him. Xigbar has control over Space and could have easily just teleported his hands inside Sora's body and "borrowed" certain vital organs out. Xaldin could have sucked out the oxygen in his lungs. Vexen could freeze his blood. Lexaeus could have quaked the ground and dropped a 5-ton slab of earth onto him. Zexion could have just STAYED IN HIS IMMUNE ILLUSION WORLD. Saix could just have just held onto his bloody weapon. Axel could've COMBUSTED SORA (refer to how Vexen died in Re:CoM). Demyx, like you said could have drowned him. Luxord could have just stolen his time and be done with it. Marluxia had the death counter. Larxene could have just over-electrocuted him.....

So really, the TRUE weakness of Nobodies is CENSORSHIP.

 

Yes, but Xehanort' Heartless was also human-formed. Based on Nobodies' rankings, human-formed is the highest level. Which would make Darkside<Xehanort's Heartless.

*Shrugs.* Perhaps. But then, why would Riku still look like Xehanort's Heartless in KH2?

LOL, so true. Roxas could always blind Sora and then beat the cr@p out of him. But he kinda wants to be a whole person.

 

Lol, Zandyne. Is so true. The Organization was only killed off because they had to. But I disagree with Larxene over-eletrcocuting him. Like she showed in CoM, she literally super kicked his ribs and he was already down. The second one was basically critical and if Donald didn't heal him...

Which astounds me on why she was defeated. Just because she had to.

I mean, the Org, could use many skills, but since they're suppose to be defeated, is like they let Sora win. Seriously, what kind of battle is Saïx leaving his weapons for Sora to take? o_O That's why I dislike the way Nomura handled the situation, or the makers of the game. All it did was not make sense.

Though in FM+, since the Org. members can be optional, they gave them more freedom to use their powers.

 

Oh god that's right.....Larxene's true weapon is her HIGH HEELS OF DEATH! XD

I think it would have been more fair if they possibly hinted another reason why their various powers wouldn't work directly....(aside from the INVINCIBLE HERO REASON *cough*).

Well, actually I think it's somewhat interesting that the Org members can be "recalled" through data no less. o_o But still...yes they were too underpowered....

 

Xehanort's Heartless that Riku had inside him was -not- Xemnas really I don't think, or 'Xehanort'.

I think that Xehanort was really Terra, and Xehanort's Heartless was the 'real' Xehanort or that old guy in the video at the end of KH2. That's the only explanation I can figure out as to why 'no one' out of the Organization wasn't more after Riku instead of Sora. Instead, Riku was really nothing of a matter at all. However, I do think Xehanort's Heartless was in Xehanort/Terra until he jumped into Darkness with the other assistants of Ansem and that is why Zexion says that Riku smelled like the superior. I think the enigmatic warrior guy is the real spirit to the other side of Terra and that's what you fight in KH2:FM and why he also says things to Sora about being Xehanort.

If it was any other way and Riku held the true Heart of Xehanort/Terra, then he would have been a lot more of an important character. Riku however was tremendously downplayed and behind the scenes and the Org just kept thinking he was either dealt with or nothing. That's my thoughts on it so far. Also, Xehanort's Heartless wears the same exact clothes as the old guy in the trailer and his physical appearance is different from both Xemnas and Xehanort on the wh appeared in Ansem's office.

Also Xehanort's Heartless was probably from a being very dark and he obviously had a very deep connection to it so he was an exception to the rule of being just in a pureblood or emblem form.

I tend to think of Darksides as beings that were created when the Heart of a world was consumed, rather than just individuals. It makes sense for its size and the fact it too was a world eater. Twilight Thorns I tend to see as the Nobodies from the death of a world, the body being the world, and the heart of the world being eaten by the Darkside. That could be wrong, but it's all that I could make sense out of that really.

I do agree at points it would seem that the Nobodies could have done more to Sora but at the same time he has the Keyblade and could reflect quite a bit. I do think he should have been at least a bit more screwed up physically than he was from those battles too, and well, I think Riku, with his connection to darkness, would have been a great help but eh, he got screwed out of that whole thing.

 

Hm...Hey ya'll, Just glancing through... And if a Debate on "how Nobodies recieved more then darkpowers" is needed, Im setting this up.

...But this is interesting. Very interesting, you could write this in a book about "The Nobody, The Heartless, and The Keyblade." I could read this over and over for months.