The Golden Compass

That's kinda been hammered down, micketymike.


Several times until it's been beaten to death. And the question is: "So what...?"

What if he wants to teach people to be god haters, so what if he wants to make everyone hate god and kill him. He can't make them think it. He can only impose his thoughts and beliefs.

My dad is going to spend two friggin hours driving me home lecturing me about the movie and the bible and how everyone's going to burn to hell and Satan is going to rise from the depths of it to consume us all...

He's Evangelical, extremist, if you will.

But that won't change my own POV, my own belief about what I got from the movie, or the books, or whatever the hell else I do in my life. Does that make me bad...?

No.

Does it make my dad bad...?

No, it doesn't.

Some people might see it and take it as something where they hate god. Will that really kill this planet and make god drop dead? Most likely not. Even in the books, Pullman makes it hard to kill God. It's not like all of them say: "We hate you, die." And he keels over.

It's also a parrallel universe. And the god from their universe compared to ours is completely different.

Kids have, as much as adults...

To follow their OWN POV, their OWN belief. Parents and churches and everyone else who impose on that makes it no better than the books where Pullman puts the church as the villains.

That goes for anyone, scientists, philosophers, anyone...

Pullman wants these kids to think, so what if he wants them to wonder about church and god and if they're evil. If I listened to my dad about 99.9% of the time I would be against this movie also. But I have been allowed to think and question and wonder about it from my mom's side.

And it has allowed me to decide and reason for my own on my own POV. And yes, I'm agnostic, but I am a strong believer in God, I just hate the church for the imposing beliefs, their own POV, including the bible. Which was written 200 years after Jesus's death, fyi...

About what they try to impose. I believe in what I believe in myself. And I'm damned proud of it.

 

......

Have you been under a rock this whole thread?

 

Easy, Darkwatch, she's allowed to state her opinion as are you. I suggest you also keep those posts longer before you get a warning. Same for you, MicketyMike. Write about your own thoughts and POV instead of just others. Just a heads-up.

In any case, I posted my opinion. I wanted to get that across to Darkwatch and Micketymike. >>

 

Except that the book series doesn't do that, as it takes place in an ALTERNATE universe, and the religion in the series isn't Christianity, it's "Magistrium"

If you read the book series, you would see, for one, they do not "kill God", The Authority dies of Old Age, and you find out that he isn't even God, he's nothing more than the First Angel who considered himself superior to the others and decided that since he was the first, he should be the Ruler

After The Authority dies, the book actually leaves open the concept that the Great Creator God does exist, but he was not The Authority as the Magistrium believes, but that he may be out somewhere in the cosmos

Which sort of relays some of Pullman's own conclusions about Religion: God may exist, but in his eyes he simply can't feel his presence.

It's also funny because there was some guy apart of a Christian group that eventually became good friends with Pullman and referred to him as "the most Christian-like Atheist I ever met"

 

It's true...He can only impose the thoughts on people.

What many people are worried about is that kids believe basically anything exp(Easter Bunny, the Stork, Santa Claus *I'm sorry kids*) That's pretty much it. But it was rated PG13 so lots of kids probably wont be looking.

I think that's why it's PG13 (at least in my area) ^_^

Muffin Man I'm not reading the book... >_<

 

Well you know that identifying yourself with a group (i.e. religious in your case) and acting in accordance with it's standards is conformity right?

Also please define deception, it's a two way street if your presenting it in a faith-based sense.

 

You don't HAVE to do anything you don't want to. If YOU personally do not wish to see a movie or read some books out there, of course you don't. You have totally missed the issue all along and aren't reading into what people are saying.

YOU and EVERYONE else on this planet has the right to do what you WANT to without SOMEONE else (and I capitalize these not because I am angry but to try to get you to see the words you keep missing) or a GROUP of people telling you that the thing is evil and you CANNOT watch it.

That is the truest issue here that people have a problem with. Atheists and anyone else, including Christians, who want to see the movie SHOULD be allowed to. They should not receive peer pressure, threats from churches on condemning people to Hell, and being ostracized from their own places of worship, etc. They should not feel that they, by just watching a stupid movie, suddenly have to make a decision between 1. religion 2. a social group versus going and seeing a movie! This is what is wrong here. No one is pushing the movie as in 'go see it' and you must. No, the point here is that churches, both Protestant and Catholic, are trying to FORCE others to not see the movie with a power they should never have.

So, this statement here is valid. You aren't giving money to a guy for saying what you believe isn't true. You have every right to, just as I have every right to turn off the tons of Christian shows and not watch them because I think it's fake. You make a choice and stand by it. You get that right.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with believing in YOUR own beliefs unless they come to harm others. However, there is nothing wrong with that teacher deciding the outcome of a vote of Islamic following children and permitting them to name a bear Muhammad, which was named after a kid too. Because, however, she does not believe in Islam, and the children decided on the vote and she cleared it, she was punished. This is the problem of when religion goes bad. She made a mistake out of ignorance and her own beliefs weren't respected or acknowledged.

If this -is- your belief, you speak from a perspective that says you do not care about anyone else's freedom of will and choice. It is amusing that you miss the point in the end that others here are displeased at SOME churches (and not just the Catholics) and some radical views that say they should force people to boycott a film. It is the point that they are using a power over others they should not have the force to exert. This is not against Christians that say to themselves they don't want to see a movie and so don't. NO ONE is forcing you to go see it. You just refuse to see the issue at hand which people are upset about which is if they WANT to see it and you don't, it doesn't give you the right to make their lives a living hell for it.

You don't want to see a movie = you don''t.
You don't want others to see the movie = who are you to say that?
You want to conform the world in your image = you take away others freedoms.

So who here is being forceful of their nature on others? Rethink things and see what the true argument is about before you tell others they are so wrong. No one is saying YOU can't believe as you want to when it comes to your right to have God or not. We are telling you that just because you don't like something, don't tell US what to do and follow your way. If I want to see a movie, I should be able to. If a Christian wants to see a movie or read some books, let the person be and don't make that person feel like crap. If anything in all of this, I feel sorry for the good Christian people who just want to see a movie and the Bible Thumpers that say no one has a free will and they will be easily led to temptation blah blah need to shut up. There are other churches, as Sara said, which are trying to do other things and bravo to them. They aren't closed minded bigots.

 

To add to that, Repliku, some of the Christian and catholic churches enjoyed the movie. The quotes I stated are from a christian website. Not all catholics are going to hate this movie. Out of four reviews, I only read one that was actually saying: "Well, I'm strongly against it because it's a lead-in for killing God." Even he said at the end the kids can see it, but be talked about it afterwards.

Not all of the people from those churches are evil, just the extremists are the ones who blow this out of proportion.

 

i <3 Repliku's comments there always so long! :3
but yes i might be roman catholic but i dont feel that i must impose my ideals and values on others....there for if u dont belive in God...thats ur right "free will" and if u do belive in God thats ur right too
i think its bad to reject storys, ideas, and things for people that dont have the same beliefs as we do

its like the f-ing crusades all over again "make them convert or kill 'em" we should just let people belive what they want to damn it! then maybe we wont have any wars but alas there are people that are so easily threated or "were right your wrong so come with us or burn in hell" mentality

so in conclution

free will

thank you

 

Oh god, Repliku, that post was so sexy. xD

Wouldn't "evil" be a bad term to use in this case, Sara? lol

 

Dark...

One more sentence like that from you and you'll get a warning. Seriously, post some depth for a change.

And maybe it is or isn't. Evil has a very broad definition that can be brought up in another conversation where it's not spam.

I'm just saying that their POV about the movie and books is considered evil because they are trying to impose their own thoughts and beliefs to others. The same way in some cases they did in the book.

 

Just so people know, because it has been asked a few times, the movie is rated PG-13 since it does have quite a bit of violence in it. So, really, it was not intended for little children any way, unlike Chronicles of Narnia etc. The Dark Materials books also are meant for teenagers on up and have more adultish themes to them. So, the movie was placed at the appropriate rating to begin with.

Thought I'd just toss this in there so people aren't going on thinking the film was rated PG or G. =:)

 

Pay attention to the response below >_>

You're right. Clearly you didn't interpret my suggestion and question correctly. Let me explain:

By the definition you expressed you were implying that the people of some churches (in this case, "extremists) were "evil". Yes. I fully understand that evil can be taken several ways. However, I was merely saying that using such a profound and versatile dynamic on that word was very odd to do, especially since you hardly explained what you meant after expressing such fact.

I wasn't implying, saying, or trying to make you think that I was being disrespectful or unintelligent. I don't know why you couldn't just PM me/IM me to tell me that. <_<;

And that certainly makes the people themselves evil too, right?


There's a little more depth for you.

 

Nah, I would say it makes them deranged and living in a fantasy world and not getting what is truly bad or good in this life. To question beliefs or pose movies or books on it is not 'evil' of course. For others to say it is wrong would be just wrong; not evil either. Someday people are going to learn they can't force their wills down other people's throats and then one of the biggest causes of war, which is motivating people to do things out of religion versus another held belief, will be gone. It should never be an excuse in our day and age and yet it is sadly still a reason. I'm borderline tempted to call these people who see this as more evil than murder, rape, aggravated assaults, abuse etc as messed in the head and needing psychological help.

Perhaps that's too strong, but I see so many negatives that happen simply because of the power of what one group believes. Whether people want to admit it or not, Christianity still kills because of these zealots that go around passive aggressively attacking. They can't get away with 'holy wars' so much anymore and drag people from their homes and all, but they can convince children that they are evil, low lives, kick them out of their home, etc for having a different mind set or because they are gay, exploring other religions, Atheist, sick, etc. This can and does result in suicide and spree killings more than video games will ever do.

Fundamentalists are a danger and I wish more regular good Christians would rise up and tell them to stop and give them the help they actually need, but people seem too afraid to do anything but voice opinions that they are going too extreme. If someone is a nut job, he/she is and this reverence to the point that they are 'religious' doesn't make them not capable of harm. They get a slap on the wrist for their mental persuasions, assaults and their acts of destroying other people's things or chasing people out in mobs. It's disgusting to me. Other Christians are just fine but I really wish they'd open their eyes to the atrocities these others do because this sets up the young people with the wrong images of themselves and others and it takes a lot to fight the bigotry instilled so that everyone who is a naysayer of the religion is not heard to hate the people who follow it. I had to deal with fundamentalist religion enough on my own and my mother trying to force me to it. Fortunately I had the willpower to not listen to her hateful words so much. Others can't do that and I cannot say I do not bear my scars from it, or hearing other fundies say at the church table when asked 'what would you do if your child is not Christian' ...their responses were 'I'd kill the kid', 'I'd disown the kid' etc. I was 16 then and horrified and walked out after telling them to 'turn the other cheek as Jesus said to do' because that -was- horrible.

I think in the end my biggest issue with this is that these fanatical believers keep attacking Atheists and Christians too. They keep voicing 'if I don't want to watch the movie, I don't want to!' and others of us with rational minds will say 'of course you don't have to. No one is going to force you to see something you don't want to'. However, they cannot see their passive aggressive attack on other Christians to force them to 'behave' or else they have permission to treat them like crap and remove them from their social status in the circles of their places of worship and possibly to lose friends etc. So, they absolutely cannot see here that it is them causing all of the problem by declaring boycotts and saying things to make others depressed. Religion should -not- oppress people. This isn't about saying regular Christians oppress, and at this point I think sadly it IS the regular Christians being oppressed, along with everyone else, while the fanatics play the Martyr Card and try to say 'everyone hates us, boo-hoo'. That is why I think these people have some dementia going on and aren't with reality. Of course, people's reverences for religion provides an immunity to these people so that zealots can continue to do things and though laws have prevented some things, words still have a power over some and sway them to listen and I just don't think these people should be allowed that power of dominion. In the U.S. we have an astounding number of Christians and I think to see change, it's going to take them to put their foots down and say what is 'too much' with these people because every time any other group does we are suddenly believed to be hateful, evil, and these fundamentalists now toss out the term 'anti-Christian' and try to equal it with anti-semetism and act as though we all plan on tossing them in furnaces. That just is an insult to the Holocaust and it's just plain untrue.

As I said elsewhere, the biggest harm to Christianity won't be from any Atheist because you can't make someone change their minds etc. It will be from these fundamentalists that no one is doing a thing about and letting them teach our kids to be dumb, biased and unnerving. Excuse my long rant, and if I've offended the Christian folk, it wasn't my intention to. I just really am seeing a horrible lot pertaining to this and other acts fundies do, and am just perhaps a bit miffed and needed a good vent. So few others will say it, but I think quite a few people feel it even if they are afraid to voice it.

 

I agree with you, Repliku.

I was lucky, my mom married my dad at a young age, but she realized when I was little that my dad was an fundamentalist, she kept him from doing things too extreme. I was also driven away from the church by his lectures and his things about god. Anything you talk to him about brings the comparison to religion on it.

I also seen the times with 60 minutes. There was a Evangelical church camp that was shut down last summer or so that the fact is they were literally brainwashing the kids, one investigator said it was the same as an Alkaida camp.

If you look on the news, molestations, brainwashing, banning of books and movies, and other things that the church is hiding, or publicly stating because they think it'll make everyone to burn in hell. It makes you wonder who seriously is the one who is causing, in their pov: "the world to fall apart."

Kids should be able to think and do for themselves. My mom was creeped out by the ending of the books, but she still was fine with me reading it. My dad didn't even want to me to see the movie. I learned from my mom acceptance and understanding. I learned from my dad to avoid religion and to keep an eye out for any problems with it.

It could've gone the other way, but I wonder if it did... Or if my mom wasn't firmly against my dad doing anything like my dad might've planned...

What would've happened.

In any case, movies and books like The Golden Compass brings out the extremists. Amazingly enough, everyone else is willing to enjoy a movie, even people who are from the church, and take it as it is.

Free will seems to be a forgotten thing now in some parts of the churches. It's sad when you think about it.

 

Hi. I haven't posted anything on this site, so cut me a little slack.
Anyway, I'm on a fansite titled His Dark Materials.org which is a fansite for The Golden Compass as well as the other nooks in teh trilogy. I support the books because they have great themes for Christians as well as any one else of another faith. i myself am Christian and I don't follow the Roman Catholic's opinion on the trilogy.
What makes me mad is when people say something negative about the book when they haven't read any of them. Now, how can you argue about something you don't know about? The other members on the fan site agree, and we believe that the majority of people who believe this are being ignorant, but we respect their beliefs.
But in essence no, reading the books is not wrong.

 

I'm sorry I've only heard about it so I'm sorry people if I've offended you or something.

In my area of the world all the movie theaters were giving it like a 1 star and bad descriptions. The movie theaters are backed up though. Even so after a week the movie was gone from the theater. That was telling me something I guess.

If you guys want to see the movie. no problem. as for me...I'm not exactly a movie person anyway...

 

i dont see why cruchs call its evil all it is is a person idea that he decied to make a book and then other people think it has a chance to make money and if cruch find it evil that ok but arnt we suppoues to repect others opines

 

Well, in the case of Phillip Pullman, it wasn't merely the fact that he was an Atheist and wrote the book, it was that he denounced any sort of fantastical story that had some sort of Christian link or Christian author.

In the case of the Chronicles of Narnia, yes, there is a centrifugal character based on a Christian Jesus. However, the author ( C.S. Lewis ) was quoted to say that Aslan was not intended to be seen as Jesus or even allegory to Jesus and Christianity. He had merely stated that he wanted to experiment with a Christ-like figure in a fantasy setting. And this has been done countless times in other forms of medium, but Phillip Pullman has chosen to lead his Crusade primarly against Narnia.

Even J.R.R. Tolkien, a Christian who converted Lewis ( who was an Atheist before meeting his fellow Oxford colleague ) to Christianity was given the cold shoulder by Pullman, saying that The Lord of the Rings were nonsensical and a waste of his time.

It's really not that he's an Atheist that he has to be the antithesis of Narnia and Lord of the Rings, it's merely because he wants a fight to pick. In his "struggle" he's made baseless claims against Lewis and other Christian authors that have absolutely no standing whatsoever. I think that anyone who writes for children intelligently and creatively is a good person, and for him to so callously call these people immoral isn't winning any points in my book.

I have read the entire His Dark Materials trilogy and I did enjoy his storytelling, but suffice it to say, as an author I have little respect for Pullman.