Steubenville High School Football Players Found Guilty of Raping 16-Year-Old Girl

I actually said something very similar in another thread. We really don't have the resources to keep these freaks, not just these two boys but the rest of them as well, behind bars. There's a very quick and inexpensive solution, which I won't be talking about right now. Let's just put it like this. You do the crime, say goodbye.

Even if we did have the resources to keep these types of criminals in jail, I still don't think we'd do it. This country would rather see rapists and murderers run the streets while the higher ups line their pockets, instead of helping out a little to do something about it. As far as i'm concerned, America isn't America anymore.

 

I wouldn't exactly call the death penalty inexpensive.
Very few (and perhaps any) crimes are worth being put to death for.
At that point it becomes a morality vs. practicality question. Are you willing to kill countless criminals just to save money? I personally am not (though I'm not against the death penalty on the whole.) I've been avoiding this thread because of just how much it disgusts me, but these two people do not deserve to be killed for what they did.


Exactly how much do you know about American history? We're really no differant now than we were 100 or even 200 years ago (as far as corrupt politicians and greedy corporate heads are concerned.)

 

This cunt of a board messes up my quotes and won't let me edit my post properly. Fuck it then. It ought to be clear.

 

That depends on what type of death penalty you'd like to enact. It could either cost you to set everything up, including the poison they'd be injecting, or it'd only cost you a bullet. I'd prefer the injection method. I'd rather not see someone suffer through it, no matter the crime. These two individuals may not deserve the death penalty, but could you say that about the rest of the rapists out there?

Actually, I think we're substantially different from all those years ago. Used to, if a man was convicted of a heinous enough crime, he was executed. Now they get three square meals and a "cozy" place to stay. Obviously the food isn't great, as well as the boarding, but for some of these criminals I see it as a little more than what they deserve. I won't say anything about the drinking, or situations as this one, because they have always happened. But America has definitely diminished it's reputation. Then again, I wonder if we ever had a reputation to begin with. A good one, anyway.

Quote#1: Alright, you win. I was wrong to assume you were looking for a justification. I get ahead of myself and mistake things that aren't there for being there. I apologize for that. Obviously I agree there is no justification for what happened, and that there indeed may be more causes behind their actions. But, i'd also like you to agree that alcohol was a large factor in bringing forth those causes. Normal people, without such backgrounds, would more than likely not commit such an act. But I can only think that the alcohol removed what self-control this boys may have had, causing them to act upon whatever sudden "urge" they may have had at the time.

Quote#2: As I said above, I agree that normal people with different backgrounds that didn't bring forth such feelings wouldn't do this.

Quote#3: You did not mention the use of alcohol in that phrase, but were blatantly ignoring the fact that I had said staying home instead of drinking would have been better. Yes, being a shut in is a terrible idea. I think all kids should be out and about. However, I don't think that going out and getting drunk should be included. I don't know why you won't submit to this. It just makes me believe you're trying to justify to the thought of children going out and drinking. I'm sorry if that may not be the case. But the least you could do is agree that going out and getting drunk as a child is not a good idea.

Quote#4: As I later went on to agree and submit to Boy Wonder, yes the girl may not have known her limit. However, the base decision to start drinking that night was hers. As I also went on to say, if you can make the decision to drink, you should be able to accept the consequences. The only way I would change my mind on the matter is if the girl had no idea that she shouldn't be drinking, or understand that alcohol, consumed in a high enough quantity, will have bad effects on you. And unless this girl was "shut in" her entire life, never seeing or hearing about the effects of alcohol on TV or from other people, it's highly likely she knew the possibilities.

Quote#5: I suppose I could have been a little bit clearer as to whom would be having their sarcasm "skipped".

Quote#6: I'm not sure if I could say or add anything to this, as it's part of my reasoning as well. Everyone will be affected differently than others, as in, two girls drinking the same amount. One of them may pass out, while the other does not. And no, everyone doesn't have the same "default" for the effects of alcohol. Some are happy when they drink, others become severely depressed.

Quote#7: This is going to sound completely awful, and I may look like the bad guy, but there is a big difference between "copping a feel" and rape. Something such as touching the girls "boob" wouldn't be considered rape. It would be considered sexual harassment. Therefore, I conclude that the two situations are basely different. One being based on rape, the other on sexual harassment.

Quote#8: Sixteen you say. They are old enough to make their own decisions? So it was not only their decision to get drunk that night, but the girls as well. Considering that female minds develop faster than males, I believe the girl was further mentally developed than the two boys. As for what they should or shouldn't be able to decide for themselves, getting drunk should definitely not be on that list. Not that it's going to stop them, but their brains are not "fully developed" and therefore they are going to go out and try things like drinking one way or another. I believe that the age one should really be able to decide whether or not they want to drink is eighteen. If you're old enough to enlist in the army, and serve our country, I think you should be able to grab a drink. Needless to say, the age set now is twenty-one. The whole matter was revolved around the illegal consumption of alcohol by "minors." The whole situation is completely terrible, and disgusting. I think it's alright to have a few with just your close friends, but these teenage parties are ridiculous. It's not a matter of whether or not it might be "fun" to go out and drink. It's a matter of not waiting till your of an appropriate age at which you can take the responsibilities and consequences that come with drinking. Everyone holds fault for this situation. The boys, obviously, for raping the girl. The girl for making the choice to drink. The others who simply sat and watched. But to top it off, who got the alcohol? Everyone holds fault.

This is what I believe and there's no changing that. This conversation could go on and on forever, but I don't see it getting anywhere. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, and I believe there's no changing that. There isn't an accurate summation of words or theories that could make either one of us change their mind. So, rather than needlessly prolong this argument any further, which would inevitably go on forever, I say we just agree to disagree on this key point. However, if you'd like to keep going i'd be more than happy to. We've both expressed out ideals and beliefs, and we clash on most of them. I don't think anything is left to come other than more analogies and sarcasm. All out key points have been presented. That's about all you can do in an argument between two people. If neither of us is willing to break down and admit defeat, the conversation then becomes invalid, as there's no point remaining to continue the subject.

So, in conclusion, I agree we both have different views on the matter.

 

^Basically this.


I had a friend who was raped last year (she committed suicide a few months ago because she felt inferior and dirty, bless her soul she deserved more than that), and the guys were expelled from school. They weren't even allowed to go to the alternative school because it's directly behind the normal school. I used to hold them in tremendous spite, but after hearing that they were forced to drop out of school and not graduate because of this (one of them being a straight A student who had been offered MANY scholarships) and the fact their parents couldn't afford to buy a house elsewhere, I decided they had enough. My hate for them faded, and I knew they had ruined their lives more than they had ruined my friend's. She was still the good person, but they know what they did was wrong, and I see it every time I see them doing landscaping for others. They have a look of extreme hate and sadness in their eyes. They regret what they did, and I'm glad they know that they made a huge mistake.

 

I will state quickly here, if you wish to talk about a particular part of this case in depth that doesn't reference the article directly at times (like Rape, Capital Punishment, Alcohol and consent to sex, etc) I would advise finding a relevant thread for the topic or creating a new one. It helps decrease the clutter and can allow people to expand their discussions. Just saying!

First, female brains are on AVERAGE faster developers then the male counterpart, but I would add that doesn't mean every female is mentally mature by default, nor that males by default are less mentally mature then females. It's unique to everyone. The victim in this situation may have been below average in terms of development, we don't know and is still slightly irrelevant to the case. I still don't see how a biological development would've changed the matter, unless by mental maturity you mean to say the ability to hold back and act disciplined in your thinking and by extension your actions. Which is more based on acting experience and childhood socialisation, most people learn to be strong and control themselves from urges or breaking extreme taboos, but some are weak willed, short sighted, ignorant of the facts and ruled by emotions, which I would argue would be what these rapists (and rapists in general, I suppose) are guilty of.

And to link this to drunkness, the guys clearly knew she was unable to properly think coherently having been sick and comatose-like from alcohol. I don't care if the girl or guy says 'yes' at that point and agrees to the act, you logically should not proceed forward with sex, for a number of reasons. One being the current situation, unable to safely say whether the victim was in the right state of mind to agree. I'm not even talking about common respect for people who are **** faced, but the idiocy behind the crime. They were filming their illegal act. They had no respect for themselves, to protect themselves, let alone the victim. Drunkenness should be met with avoidance or compassion, those are the only two responses that won't wind you up in a situation where you're now on the sex offenders list. It is in no way her fault getting raped because she wanted to drink. Plenty of people her own age do that and do not expect to get raped from that experience, and clearly don't. We don't hold parties to expect to get gang rapped by people we go to school with, as much as we don't expect to go to school to have a classmate pull out a gun and kill teachers and students we know. It's unthinkable to imagine it would happen to you. When my female friends get drunk (hell a couple of female strangers by themselves) we've had the common idea of tending to them and getting them home, even when we've collectively been drunk or close to it. It's like the article says, it's an arrogant display, of not being taught what is acceptable to do in society.

 

I apologize. It was never my intention to stray from the subject.

Just as I can't prove that the girl was more mentally developed, you can't prove that she wasn't. Yes, I was referring to the ability to hold back, and say no. Not sure how it's not relevant. If the girl would have refused to drink that night, she'd probably have already gone home, or at least not been in the condition she was. As for the boys, the fact that they raped an unconscious girl shows that they had little to no ability to hold back at all. And I was saying that what little they had was diminished, or abolished by the consumption of alcohol. Would you not blame someone for wrecking their car on an icy road, if you knew that they had made the decision prior to "speed"? This is a horrible, horrible analogy for the issue, but it's the best way to describe my feelings on the subject. True, most fault lies with the two boys who raped the girl. I just can't believe the statement that the girl doesn't hold the tiniest little bit of fault. Sure, what happened was terrible. They boys deserve more than whatever punishment they get. And I'm sick of hearing how people feel sorry for them. I'm not justifying why they did it, or saying this was obviously going to happen. I'm saying it did happen because both the boys and the girl made decisions that eventually led up to this point. I'm sorry if it looks like i'm the bad guy here, i'm not trying to be.

No, obviously it wasn't the girls intention of getting raped. I'm not sure how many people here aren't understanding what i'm trying to say, and that they're assuming something that is incorrect. The girl did not want to get raped, that's a given. But, it was because she chose to get drunk she was thrown in a position where two boys holding a twisted mentality, could act upon her state of unconscious. No, she didn't want to pass out and have two boys raping her. Quite frankly, I don't like that people are assuming or coming to the assumption that somehow I believe it was her intention. I'm saying, she chose to get drunk. She passed out because of that choice, and was unlucky enough to be caught by the two boys.

Yes, plenty of people her age go out and drink and come out fine, for the most part. I should hope it's no ones intention to throw a party where someone is gang raped. And i'm glad there are people like you who would help their friends or even strangers get home safely. True, if the boys had been raised better, this might not have ever taken place. But it did happen. Two boys raped a girl who was unconscious after drinking a substantial amount of alcohol. Those two boys were caught and prosecuted. The girl now has to live with knowing that she was sexually violated. All of these are true. I agree. It was a horrible ordeal. As far as i'm concerned, it's sickening that the two boys will only be locked up until they are twenty-one. If you still are confused about what it is i'm saying, I'll gladly try to explain it to you via PM, as trying to explain here isn't gaining any kind of results.

 

The first line was just a general thing to everyone, not just you.

I thought you we're referring to biological mental development at first, which is what I saw as irrelevant in my eyes, whilst discipline I do see as relevant and agree with you here. She could've chosen to leave or not has so much to drink, but what happened to her was obviously not a choice, it may have been an end result of her actions, but it's not something she is to be blamed for.
I'm not trying to deny that alcohol was the key fact that led to the vulnerability of rape, but I do disagree with the mentality that she is at fault. Even if it was marginally her fault for getting raped, I would argue it's a negligible amount so much so that it wouldn't have meant anything. It's a percentage so insignificant in terms of 'blame' that it's not worth mentioning as such. I was just trying to justify this point by saying that it's the actions of the perpetrators mentality and actions were 99.9% the reason for the rape while the girl would've been less than 0.01% if we include alcohol supplier, negligent parents, etc.
I can see you blame them, but I can see you blame her too. The latter part is all I disagree with.

Also, the car analogy is not the same. Drink driving involves loss of focus and ability to judge your actions properly. A common thing in alcohol consumption in general. Yet, this situation is different in that she was in a state unable to control her actions, let alone her focus or ability to control them. I get what your trying to say though, but the car thing isn't really the same thing.

I'm sad for the boys in that they we're ignorant and not taught well. I'm sad for the girl in that she was arrogant on her alcohol resilience ability. I'm sad that friends and classmates were ignorant enough to ignore her sorry state at the time to think she was vulnerable. I'm sad the parents were lenient enough to let their teenage kids have a party they clearly weren't ready yet to handle. I'm sad ignorance is such a common thing in this story.

 

Yes, I admit that my first post where I said that alcohol isn't part of the problem was very wrong. It certainly played a part.

It most certainly isn't, but I'd let them free to make stupid decisions. They will face the natural consequences of that decision and will have to take responsibility for that, after which they can decide whether it was worth it. As a father I would dissuade it with a passion, but I'm savvy enough to know that outright forbidding something to sixteen year olds can have the opposite effect of what you're going for.

I still stand by the idea that she should only take responsibility for the natural consequences, but I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this one.

Replace rape with any other criminal offense, even stealing her wallet, and the analogy would still stand. The situations are different, but not fundamentally so. I could bypass the technical issues like waking up by coming up with a more outrageous hypothetical situation in which the girl falls unconscious due to her own stupid fault, but that would hardly be elegant and I thought this would be enough to get my point across.

I acknowledge that, and realize that discussing this further would eventually lead us far away from the actual topic. I'll leave it at this.

 

The saddest part about this is that everyone focused in on the drinking part when someone willing to rape someone will most likely do it at some point or another. The drinking simply gave them a chance to do it. Easier sure, but when it would happen even without it then I don't see why that is such a great focus. Wouldn't be much harder to whack someone on the back of the head as well.

And I believe rapists should get no mercy, for what they do can be worse than murder. Murder can be done in self defense, there is justifiable murder after all. Rape is never justified though so the fact that it is so easily excused and overlooked in society disgusts me. (Don't confuse me saying rape is worse than murder with me saying murder isn't that bad. To rob someone of their loved one is horrible, but at least the victim's pain end there and then. A rape victim is forced to live with it for the rest of their life.)

I say this to voice an opinion and vent anger that's been building for a while, not to debate it. Not the drinking part anyway, as that was just proven endless and I wouldn't have anything new to add.