Kingdom Hearts II Roxas??? does he have real feelings?

Precisely. There' s no such thing as "false" feelings. I think therefore I am. The logical study of any "truth" or "reality" is based on that postulate. None of us can really prove that he' s not a mere program stuck in a simulated reality.

Even though Roxas is described as being special, in KH2 we saw Axel displaying a ... what is it called again ? A change of heart ? I highly doubt feelings weren' t involved when he sacrificed himself. The only explanation I can think of is that nobodies are remnants of themselves. The, err, "stronger" they become, for lack of a better term, the closest the remnant gets to the original, the more memories and feelings come back to them (it appears memories come back first).

In 358/2 Days didn' t Saix ask Axel something along the lines of "Which would you rather keep ? The fake friendship, or the real one ?"
Free will and feelings spotted.

I haven' t played ReCoded yet but from what I' ve read in Nomura interviews I gather that Data Sora might have a heart too.

 

That would be fine and dandy, but fallow the logic of the Kingdom Hearts series. Nobodies have no feelings because they have no hearts. The remember what it was like to have emotions, so they can embody it, but it's all a rouse. I feel that the only possible explanation of Roxas appearing to have emotions is the fact the he's possibly the embodiment of Ven's heart.

 

In the KH universe there is. Nobodies act as the person they were before turning into a nobody.
You understand this well and put it very nice way.

But they don't have real feelings it is only an act they carry out for their own sanity. Nobodies are born with the memories of their others and act on these memories. Some nobodies find it necessary to pretend they have real emotions to distract enemies and to help fill the void. As Saxima already said in the KH universe the Heart is what gives people their emotions. Without it, it's almost impossible to show emotions unless there is something special going on. For most nobodies they lacked hearts as thats what it means to be a nobody.

Axel himself was changed by his time with Sora and Roxas. He became a special nobody in his own way.

 

I just apply logic, whether we' re talking about KH or not. I see nothing in the KH "rules" that contradict that kind of logic. The journal entries says nobodies have no heart, but they don' t explain what a "heart" is in the first place (which is clever from Nomura since neither religion nor science can describe what a soul or a conscience is, where it comes from, nor what it' s made of exactly).

Furthermore, it' s not written in stone that nobodies "have no heart" in the KH universe, whatever that means, that' s just DiZ opinion and nothing says he couldn' t be proven wrong about that, right ? A way for Nomura to say that maybe sometimes logic/science can' t explain everything.

If nobodies think they have feelings then they do have some. From their behavior I gather that they have both free will and self-awareness. I don' t see any crucial difference between having feelings or remembering what feelings are enough to act on it. Pondering over what you could feel before and can' t feel anymore is, in itself, a feeling. It' s called nostalgia.

Feeling you have a void to fill is a feeling, right ?

Well, I guess Roxas could be the key to nobodies self-empowerment. ^^
I like to think that witnessing feelings (may it be from Roxas, Xion or Repliku) is what triggered Axel to feel more than just a void or nostalgia, but we could also say that Ven' s heart err ... "touched him" somehow.

 

Actually throughout the series a definition has been about the heart. It's the thing that gives emotions. It is were memories are stored in a human. It is who you are in your purest sense. It is one of things that gives life in the KH universe. It is what the western world considers a soul. The soul in the KH universe is simply the battery of life, and when extinguished, life ends. Nobodies are simply a copy that can never be as realistic as the real thing.

This has been confirmed many times both in the series and interviews that nobodies have no heart.
It is the base of the definition of a nobody. When a person becomes a heartless, their heart is then surrounded by darkness and their body and soul is lost to darkness. If a person has a strong enough heart their heart and body take on life on their own. So a nobody is simply made up of their body and soul as their heart is in a heartless.

They can think whatever they want, but it just isn't there. Infact some nobodies in the Organization might have even fooled themselves so much that they might really think they have emotions. But this is just a mental block, it isn't fact. There are several psychological situations were believe something is true when it's not.

They do, but this is still based from their human-selves and what they would do.

No, in the Kh sense it's only viewed as remembering. They can remember and how to respond, but they are the missing the most important part that keeps it from being real. So nobodies "feelings" are only an act.

No, it is acknowledging there is something out of place. They know they aren't like a real human, based off their memories of what it's like to have true memories.

 

My point was rather that maybe there' s a way for them to regain one over time, or at the very least to regain something close enough. Or you' re right and they just act "as if" for no other reason than because it' s in their nature to do so every now and then ...
I' m not sure I wanna know what' s the right way to look at it.

 

uh- you guys really know what your talking about, so explain one thing, Ven, where does he come into all of this? we are talking about Nobodies and how they have no emotions, thats clearly true; you see it in all the games, or just 2, coded, memories, anyway... but Roxas and Ven are too similar for it to be- an accidence- of some sort.

 

well, people say since Ven's heart went to rest in sora's, that when he was turned into a nobody in KH I, that ven's heart went into roxas'. now alot of people have alot of other theories as well.

 

We know that Sora received Ven's heart and then Roxas received it from Sora. So it is possible that Roxas is closer to being Ven's nobody than Sora's, or that Ven's heart being there affected how he formed while still just being Sora's

Those seem like the two most plausible explanations to me, but for the time being we don't know for sure why there is such a strong connection.

 

That's correct! Wow this is my favorite thread. Speaking of Roxas, thus makes me wonder how the cycle of Ven, Roxas and Sora ends up once Sora saves Terra, Aqua and Ven.

 

Roxas already got closure and recom8ined with Sora, so I don't think we really need to see much of him in future. He's satisfied to live as a part of Sora. On the other hand, Ven is most certainly not happy to 8e left where he is. (Or at least, he wouldn't 8e if he had a heart to feel emotion.) So I see Ven 8eing restored, possi8ly with some dependence upon Sora's heart, like how it was in the 8eginning for him.

The one I'm interested a8out is Xion. 8y all rules, she shouldn't 8e allowed to exist at all, meaning it'll 8e difficult for her to reappear, yet she most likely has regrets. At most, I see her appearing in Sora's mind 8riefly.

Repliku isn't even getting the possi8ility of a happy ending from messiah!Sora, so he's pro8a8ly the worst off so far.

 

I just noticed this in the latest KH3D trailer :




Looks like my suspicions are about to get either confirmed or infirmed, unless of course Nomura manages to weasel his way out of a definitive answer to that question somehow. I was assuming that, in KH, heart = soul, but I' ve recently been told in another thread that, if we are to believe Ansem they are not the same thing. Problem is, if what they call a heart is neither a soul, a brain/memory analogy, nor a blood pumping muscle then ... what the **** else could it be ? :why?:

Either Ansem is wrong (wouldn' t be a first) and the heartless/nobody definitions are gonna be retconned (again), or the KH saga makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

...
'-'

You're not insane. Nobodies don't have feelings. But the stronger ones, they can remember about their time as a human, and then remember how is have feelings... So they kind of act like feel, when they actually don't.

BUT, Roxas, Xion and Naminé do have feelings. Most likely they have their own heart in the light, Sora and Kariri are safe within the light, their hearts aren't lost and then I believe there is a connection. But still there is something that perturb me.

Axel. Yes, I know he is a Nobody, he's the VIII member of Org. XIII, but I believe he has feelings. He made a strong bond with Xion and Roxas, a bond that is just like Sora, Kairi and Riku, "which their hearts are connected". Somehow I think Axel has feelings, for some unknown reason he has. We all know what I mean by Unknown Reason, there isn't a reason, he just has. He feel happiness in the days with Xion and Roxas, he felt sad when Xion died, he misses Roxas when Roxas ran away. He did many things because his feelings told him to do that). I believe Axel's heart - or better saying, Lea's heart, was strong enough to fight with the Darkness.

That's only my opinion though.