No Thanks Questioning Premium Membership

Bomp. What ever happened to this? Is that discussion still underway?

Much as I like the idea of setting milestones for members to achieve, there's got to be something else we can use. Something less limiting in terms of creativity and more of a static reward, like the Premium Pin. Some of us do like to mess with those titles obnoxiously often on other boards, and no, the static titles don't serve the same purpose. For one, I like to use my user title to vent in-jokes on occasion, instead of flooding the boards with them.

Me.

Might be arrogant but you know it's true

 

The discussion had halted in the Prem section a few months ago. iirc, I believe the Prems wanted to see some of the staff ideas for possible perks, which never really got posted since Chev was spearheading the proceedings and had taken a break to handle some offline matters for a while. I'll check in with staff regarding those to go over them again, pass it to the Prems and see how it goes from there. It might take a while though -- we're currently trying to work on some pretty heavy staff things, atm.

We likely won't get back to the Normal Members till Prems have had a chance to really go back and forth. I'd estimate around mid June-ish for it to hit y'all to discuss and for everyone to come to a consensus on.

 

I completely disagree here. I think that one thousand posts is an acceptable limit. Considering a mass quantity of my posts are of high quality (imo) and I've made it this far. If every normal user had Prem benefits then what would be the point in a Premium account? The only thing I never really liked was the rule against name changes. One name change after three hundred posts is pretty hard to deal with. I think maybe if it were a name change every three hundred posts for normal users would be a little better. As for the user title, I couldn't really care less either way. Yea, it's nice to be able to customize, but it's not a necessity.

I think you should only be entitled to benefits if you've actually dedicated yourself to the site. A thousand posts isn't really as much as it could be. It's been three years and I'm finally cutting it close. You'll just have to give it time and keep posting.

In my opinion, post quality could still be a little better here. There's certainly a lot of quantity, but the quality of posts I've been viewing is lacking. But, if you can get the thousand posts then you'll get Premium benefits. Also in my opinion, if you can't post or don't take the time to post you don't need benefits.

 

There are people who've been here longer than you, who have objectively made more of an impact on the boards, and who've barely scratched 500 posts. Are you trying to tell me they deserve it less?

There's also the fact that some posts just mean more to the forum than others. If one person has 500 posts but another has 1,000, but the first fellow starts all the threads that the second posts in, who do you think deserves the benefits more?

I also believe that posters in non-post count sections are serving a purpose to the boards that deserves reward. For one, it might not be the most straight-laced or serious section, but the Spamzone serves a vital function: that of giving the forumers a place to unwind and mingle with the community. And there are posters who earn a name for themselves there by coming up with compelling topics of discussion and entertaining little games to play.

The simple fact of the matter is that post count does not measure dedication. At most, it shows who are the chattiest members on the forum. If you're pulling for greater post quality, you should be pulling for a system that doesn't offer a flat reward for a flat number, because that system can be and is frequently, admittedly, abused. I can't count the number of times my Prem friends have actually advised me to post whore, going so far as to suggest sections where mods are most lenient about spam. Even staffies have offered this advice before!

1,000 posts is not as bad as it could be, but that's an exceptionally crummy reason to maintain it. It's also not as fair as it could be. Personally, I've been pushing for a long time for the post count requirement to be cut in half, but for the current system to be replaced by one where members must apply for Premiumhood and must then be voted in by their peers and staff. That way there's no padding your post count to snag those benefits; you really have to earn it. Perhaps then Premiums might also have the benefit of having their vote count for more in deciding on new Premium members.

In fact, maybe I'll make a thread about that soon... As I recall, I never did back when I first had the idea.

 

How do you judge how much of an impact a user makes? What kind of impact? Are you talking on the forums? Are you talking on profiles just chatting with people? Post-count is important to a forum. If you got Premium membership for every grade A post you make, there probably would be no where near as many posts.

How do you judge what means more to the forum? What content makes a post more important than others? I'd also like to say the user with 500 posts more than likely doesn't post in others threads if the user with 1,000 posts in all of 500s threads. Sure, starting threads is a big help, buy you have to be able to post in other threads as well.

The Spamzone has and always will be a non-post section. I agree, perhaps some sort of award could be given out for being dedicated to the section. However, considering that's where I make most of my "likes" I won't complain. Sure, users can become famous in the Spamzone, but that's just it. They're only famous in the Spamzone. If you can't post outside of the Spamzone in more serious sections then it's your own fault.

Post count is a major factor in measuring a users dedication to the site. Perhaps another rule like, "After x amount of likes you can receive Premium membership."

I agree that there is a major amount of spam (I would consider it spam) being posted on the forums. However, it's up to the moderators to decide whether or not that is acceptable. If they deem it okay, then there's not much that can be done.

500 posts is way too easy to hit. Plus, all the members who have worked hard for Premium membership just worked hard for nothing. As for the voting thing, I don't think I'd like that. Even the most trolly user who makes a few good posts in the Spamzone could become a Premium. I'd just as soon hit 1,000 to get Prem.

 

All of the above. If you are making the KH-V experience more enjoyable for others and members hold you in high regard, that ought to be rewarded.

No it isn't. Regular posting habits, maybe. Daily activity, certainly. But neither of those are directly related to how many posts the forum has in general, nor how many a particular user may have.

You're missing the point. I'm not trying to suggest we make Premium membership easier. In fact, my method could be construed as harder to achieve. Because once you have met a flat requirement, be it post count or likes or time spent on the boards (or a combination of those), you must then have made enough of an impression during your time spent here or with all those posts/likes you accrued to be voted in. It requires the investment of the member, because they have to request it; and it requires the investment of the forums, because they must O.K. it.

You're not actually hitting the bullet point here. You can extrapolate whatever you want from that scenario, but I am using it to illustrate a broader point, that it is possible for someone with a low post count to deserve Premium benefits for their contributions.

Once again, you're focusing on the example I gave and not actually addressing the point I made. Point being, there are ways for members to make meaningful contributions to the forums without earning a single post for their trouble. The Spamzone is just one instance of this.

I disagree. There are dozens of forgettable Premium members on the forums, and a generous handful of non-Prems that no one's going to forget any time soon. At any rate, I am not pushing for the abolition of post count reqs altogether, I'm just suggesting that the current requirement is too centralizing; it causes undue focus on the number of posts a member has made and not enough focus on what they're actually doing with those posts.

A defeatist attitude like that is what makes me contemptuous of those who defend the current system. In other words, nobody actually seems to like it, so why are we defending it? People up to the highest levels of management are displeased with it, so why do we bother to keep it? Why is it so outlandish to consider that it might need some fine-tuning?

No it's not. It is rude to assume that. Especially on KH-V, where a lot of the threads don't count posts that other forums' members would use to rocket their post counts up to 10k or higher without much effort.

Some people only hit 500 posts around three or four years with the site, and in my eyes they are as dedicated as anyone else and fully deserve a spot on the list.

I kinda inadvertently picked this apart with the rest of my post so far, so yeah uh... nah.

Really? Even you've got to admit, that's a stretch. And either way, how do we know that'll happen unless we try it? Besides that, troll members making throw-away posts to get to Prem? That already happens! You are literally describing the very thing that I would hope to prevent.

Either way, you're probably gonna get some blokes who plain don't deserve the benefits, but the current system is screwing over some really exceptional members who do deserve them, and that ought to be fixed. I'm proposing more barriers to entry that are less monolithic to people who just can't post that often, but also tight enough that you really have to want it to get it.

 

The glaring issue here is that it turns the system into a popularity contest. Yes people can, to some degree, control it, by submitting themselves, but if a member is disliked by a group of Premiums, why should they be denied membership? Similarly, let's say someone does reach 500 posts, applies through this system, and because they are widely liked, get voted in by their friends--you don't think that would sour Premium membership for those who got it through 1000 posts?

 

I'm also not in favour of introducing a 'vote-in' mechanic to achieve premiumhood, for the reasons that Misty suggested.

In the olden days of yore, there used to be a reputation requirement, which partially helped to weed out people who spammed their way to premiumhood. So, if you're so concerned about rewarding people for quality posts only, it may be worth looking instead at the number of 'likes' people have received as this is now the closest thing to reputation points. imo, the requirement for 1000 posts should stay though, and I'm not saying that I'm for introducing a 'like' requirement, I'm just putting it out there as a compromise as it's slightly less like a popularity contest that way lolo

 

"Popularity contest" is a phrase which, imo, deserves less hate than it garners. But I did consider that. That's why I think there should be no way to downvote a person's Premium application; the voting requirements should simply be high enough that a moderate amount of members must approve. It can't just be a band of five or six of the member's friends who push it through, it has to be a healthy consensus, such that if enough people like this person enough to cast their vote, then they must really deserve it. It's something that can be tweaked at length, but refusing to try and retaining the same system we've had for years is not going to suddenly make it all better.

I think Premium membership is already soured for many by the current system; it needs no help in that. I could name a few members that earned a chorus of sighs when their usernames finally hit magenta. (Just don't expect me to do, because that's rude as hell.) A new system will take a trial period, yes, and no one's going to be 100% satisfied from the get-go, but that's no reason to reject the possibility of it sincerely improving with time.

And if there simply is no way to perfect the system, perhaps all of this hints at a wider question to be posed: Is Premium membership truly helping more than it's hurting? But that's a bit out of my range at this stage.

I did mention that I'm for adding a Like requirement as well. Like I said, the current barrier to entry is too high for some honest, hard-working members, and too easy for some spamming scumbags out there. What I'm proposing is that we diversify the requirements, but simplify them somewhat, so that Premiums are more well-rounded in their achievements.

 

There are 98 Premium members right now--more people than that meet the requirements but if they haven't logged in since the switch to XF they don't get promoted ( they would be immediately upon logging in ). Not all of them are active, of course, and so it's difficult to reach a definite statement on how many Premiums we are dealing with. Thus, we can't really say what a "moderate" amount of Premium members would be. And even if we did define it by some mathematical juju, it's constantly in flux. The system would have a huge amount of overhead.

I do agree the Premium usergroup needs some assessment, I don't reject it at all. But this proposition is a bit... much. At the end of the day, we are a kid's forum. We can't offend anyone or create popularity contests at this scale (as in, one that would bar someone from a specific privilege), regardless of whether you feel they are inherently good, bad, or neutral.

 

I don't see how we're offending anyone more or less with the current system. At any rate, I don't ever start by outlining my proposal; I start by trying to open a dialogue about it that's a little more involved than, "1,000 posts is kinda much, innit?" And every time I get shot down, which makes me feel like suddenly the pressure is on to back up what I say. If someone else had some ideas, I'd love to hear them. The problem is, nobody's talking about it. The discussion keeps getting halted or stalled or just not happening. I don't mean to seem like I'm pushing a personal agenda, it's just that I'm pretty much the only one I know interested in discussing it who isn't for keeping the current system. Dunno what else to say at that point, except for "Here's my idea."

 

I completely agree with Mish. The reputation stuff was legit af it would be awesome if we had that again

 

It's just not practical on a site as big as this to throw away post count. I agree with you that it is problematic in that it is not always a reflection of quality (though, just to throw it out there, a longer post often will lead to a discussion, and the back and forth of a discussion can net a large number of posts), but when the staff is doing its job moderation-wise (which I am happy to admit we can be lax, but that's a different discussion) and true discussion is happening rather than "posted my one liner job is done," it can be an indication of dedication.

The fact that people replied to your proposal shows that they're willing to discuss it, they just might not like your idea. Not everyone is an ideas person, or maybe they just don't have certain ideas about this particular subject, but feedback on ideas is just as important. I'd also like to add that Mish brought up bringing in the Likes requirement, so it's not as if nothing is happening in the thread. And then there's the simple fact that not a lot of people visit this section (or just don't bother to reply)... but if they were truly discontented with the system, or just had something to add, I'd expect that they would.

 

dsfksdgsjdghgsg I'm not saying we throw it away why does everyone keep saying that

Arright now I'm miffed

Look as much as I hate to use personal examples I was on this website for three frigging years that's longer than I've spent in any one school and I only racked up about 600 posts

Frankly I just don't have enough to say about the daily goings-on to get to 1,000 without going on the... what amounts to the uberman sleep cycle of posting that I'm on now, and even then a lot of my posts are redundant

It doesn't feel like contributing, it feels like abusing the boards, and if this is the baseline for all members, it's ridiculous

Dedication is one thing but nobody should have to be on-site 24/7 looking for threads to post in

This is the issue, though. When I stop posting, guarantee this thread will sink. It was already a month old when I dusted it off. Nobody's going to talk about it. Is that content, or is that apathy? In my experience, it's decidedly the latter. Perhaps I should revise: I'm one of the only people who bothers to talk about it and shows discontent for the current system. So yeah, it kinda feels like a fight, and it kinda feels like being singled out. Comments like "If anyone else had a problem they'd say something" don't help, either. We know how lazy people get.

*sigh* I need to go cool off. Hate the way people get about this, and any minute someone's gonna come in with the "Why so serious" sh#%. Let's just see if I'm right.

 

Hold on . . . You're miffed because people are disagreeing with the statements that you've made because you've worded them in such a way as to be misconstrued in a manner that you didn't intend? You should probably try wording out what you're trying to say a little bit better.

I was on-again off-again on KHV for almost, if not, three years. I'm almost at a thousand posts. Oh, and I was going to school for two of those years, and I'm currently working a third shift job. Yea, don't talk to me about finding the time. It's not that hard to log on and post to new or updated topics/threads. You don't have to be some crazy KHV addict who never sleeps to reach one thousand posts. You just need to be able to post.

As I said above, you don't need to be on 24/7, and I'm sure a lot of Premium members could/would tell you they weren't. They just posted where they could on topics they took the time to look into. You can't just wait for a thread to come running to you, if you look around the forums you'll probably find one. Actually, scratch that, you'll definitely find one. If you don't want to take the time to look past the first three threads in a section it's on you. I'm just saying, there's quite a few posts (outside the spamzone) daily. Whether it be new threads or new replies. You can reply to a thread again if there's an opening for you to add more significant content to a thread. Just don't be one of the users who post, "I agree" or "This is definitely right." If you can add a certain level of content to a thread, something that's important and not going to be looked over by everyone and their brother as "spam" then you can get a post. It takes more then a five minute look-see to find your posts.

You know, you're exactly right. If anyone else had a complaint about this they'd surely be posting in the thread right? If you don't like the current system, that's fine. But if it was a majority vote, I'd say a lot of users would keep it the same, of course I can't speak for everyone.

I'd like to know why you're getting so upset about people objecting to your statements. You have a problem with the current Premium system, a lot of others don't. Misty herself even said it was a matter that needed looking into. I don't see why you're getting mad. Everyone is just trying to find the problem of this equation you're trying to show us all. And you're only other method was shot down because even if there was no "vote down" that doesn't mean enough users would vote for that member. I'm sure I myself wouldn't get all that many votes. But with near a thousand posts, and enough words filling them to make a dictionary, I think I deserve to go Premium. I don't think letting users who happen to be "cool" on the forum be Prem just for being cool is a good idea. It has always been about dedicating yourself for one thousand posts. You can't even buy a Premium membership unless you're dating an admin.

It's not about keeping certain users from becoming Prem. It's about encouraging those users to post, be more active, on the forums.

 

Why was I notified of this post I unwatched the thread

Wow yup I'm done. You have successfully ignored everything I said or else strawmanned it to oblivion. Enjoy your likes, though. [/definitelynotapopularitycontest]

Fine. I'm apparently the only one who has a problem. I'll just keep it to myself, then.

 

I have to agree with Misty, as well as the others opposed to this.

I wouldn't mind a certain amount of likes requirement being added, but completely re-hauling it at this point, after it's been like this for several years, would just be unfair to current and soon-to-be Premium Members.

The current requirement is to simply get 1,000 posts in order to become a Premium Member. Now, if the requirement were lowered to, say, 500, that would make it unfair to the current and soon-to-be Premium Members, as I stated above. If someone had 990 posts, for example, and only needed 10 more and then the requirement got lowered to 500, they're going to feel like they just did all that work in posting good quality posts for nothing. The same goes for current Premium Members. Obviously, we don't all have this mindset, but some do, and it's important to take them into the equation.

As for the vote-in, I completely disagree with that. As Misty and others have said, this isn't a popularity contest. The point of having the Premium Members user group that has some perks the Registered Users user group doesn't have is to give members an incentive to post. The staff doesn't want to see users not post, they want to see users post because then that means people are interested in this site. More users joining and posting equals a healthy, living site.

 

I'm all for the adding likes back in as it will help and hopefully won't be abused like rep was back when it was a requirement. The reason it was removed was because people could gang up on someone and destroy their reputation which you can't do with likes.

The one thing is how do you measure dedication to the site? It's a subjective debate but what shows you are dedicated is participation in threads, events and improving the forum as a whole as Nova stated. I think the 1000 post requirement should remain, a likes amount be obtained, possibly a time span (e.g. must have been a member for a year) and what about participation in a certain number of community events? (Like castle Oblivion, secret santa, or any competition) However, I don't know how this could be implemented but it is an idea.

 

I'm not for likes because there are a lot of members that hardly contribute, and are either getting ALL the likes from one member who really only gives his friends likes, or giving their friends ALL the likes. Unless you could implement a "Spread more likes before giving it to so and so", then I say no.

 

I am content with the current system.

I admit when it took me just over three years to get premiumship I was so happy with it, and so annoyed that it took me that long when people who I didn't like at the time or had rivalries with had post counts double mine. I realised later posting purely in discussion would not help at all for the first two years. But i felt like I earned it, and the spammers who never left the one section and would insult and goad members made me feel better about it. I had worked hard and got somewhere whilst the lazy ones had not.

I think the post requirements outside the spam zone encourages broader posting and talking within the community. It's not simply a case of dedciation to one section that should be rewarded with premiumship, otherwise I wouldn't see the point in being a preimum member on the whole site and just say might as well be in that section alone.

I think the post count is just right. Enough for a feeling of accomplishment without being too easy.

Can't really think of anything more. But just addressing the side of the argument from someone who likes the current system.