Post Ratings: Based on Previous Reputation Suggestion

Post Ratings
build version: arbitrary numeral
based on discussion here: x
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Table of Contents

1. A Brief Overview of Post Ratings
2. Weaknesses of Post Ratings
3. Solutions
4. Current Progress: Testing & Beyond
5. Outline of Possible Ratings & Reasoning Behind Them
6. Conclusion
7. Questions/Concerns/plums is a babe (i know)​

Brief Overview of Post Ratings
Post Ratings, designed by Luke Foreman, is a vast improvement upon XenForo's built-in "Like" system. With the ability to add, subtract, and adjust the Like system to your liking (haw haw), your forum will be able to create a unique way for forum members to evaluate posts, and have the confidence to say that their posts are worth more than a simple "like".

Features of Post Ratings include:

• Fully Customizeable Ratings: You can create as many and whatever ratings you would like! There is no limit, and your creative potential can soar.
• Forwards and Backwards Compatible with XenForo: Likes before implementing Post Ratings will pass on as "Likes" in the new system. If you decide to remove the add-on for whatever reason, all ratings made will be counted as Likes (negative ratings will also carry over, but subtract from your Like count).
• Ratings Moderation: Staff members with the appropriate permissions can remove ratings on posts. This allows staff to take action on "Dislike Campaigns" in a similar vein to Mass Negative Rep Sprees on vBulletin.
• Postbit and Member Card Inclusion: Ratings can show on your postbit, either in a bar or a list of the type of Ratings (Positive, Neutral, and Negative) you have received. The List Style may also appear on the Membercard.

Spoiler: Example 1 - Bar

Spoiler: Example 2 - List

Spoiler: Example 3 - Membercard

• Member List Integration: You can search the Member List by who has the Most Positive, Most Neutral, and Most Negative Ratings on the board, similar to the previous functioning of vBulletin.
• Alerts/News Feed/Recent Activity/Rating You've Received: This functions pretty much the same as it does currently. However, you can now also view Ratings You've Given, which allows you to see every Rating you've ever given in the past!
• Admin Interface: Admins are given more flexibility, with the ability to enable and disable certain Ratings in certain sections of the forum.
• Trophy System: Receive materials for the Pin Shop for each level of Rating you achieve!

As you can see, there is quite a bit of flexibility offered with the Post Ratings system, which will enable the forum a similar experience that vBulletin's Reputation had to offer, but with a greater ability to refine and tailor as we go forward with the site.



Weaknesses of Post Ratings
Despite its many features, Post Ratings does have a few notable weaknesses:

1. Lack of a Built in Limit
Post Ratings does not have a built in limit for its ratings. This would mean that it would be similar to the way Likes currently function, in that members can give out an unlimited amount of ratings. This has the potential to see abuse on both sides of the matter, with certain groups raining positive ratings on one another, and others using it to rain negative ratings on those they see fit.

2. Lack of a Commentary System
This is also a weakness of the current Likes system. Members are unable to give commentary with their ratings. In my opinion, I don't see this as much of a detractor, but I know many members have expressed interest in getting this feature back. At the time of posting, the developer has stated that he has no plans for adding a commentary system. However, a few other forum owners/administrators on the XenForo Community site have expressed a similar interest in this system.



Solutions
In the past few days, I've been looking throughout the XenForo Community site in search of additional add-ons to alleviate the aformentioned weaknesses. While the comments one is out of our hands currently, there is an add-on to add a limit to likes and is fully functional with Post Ratings. However, it does have a wee price tag of $5.00.

If we are unable to acquire the add-on, my solution is to simply disable the Dislike feature.



Current Progress: Testing & Beyond
Post Ratings is installed and running on a testing site for KHV. Currently, the setup looks like the following:

Spoiler

As you can see in the screenshot above, the ratings will be accessed right below the signature. They can be either entirely hidden until hovered over, as displayed there, or showing fully at all points in time. Additionally, they can be placed below the post controls (as pictured there), or above the signature line.

As you can see, it ends up looking ugly as ****.

Once you rate a post, an overlay with all the people who rated that post will show. This will include the type of rating that they've given.



An unfortunate side to this is that this feature is public. If you give a negative rating to someone else's post, everyone will be able to see that rating. I'm still looking into this aspect, but I don't believe it is too much of a downside at the moment (especially considering that, in the past, you could see the person who had derepped you, though it was only between the two people).

As mentioned earlier, staff members are able to moderate these ratings and remove them if there is evidence of abuse/mass like campaigns.

Additionally, to explain why some things regarding the ratings (white boxes, etc.) looks off in the images, the styling is still very much a work in progress! We haven't really had the time to get running with it yet, so everything is still at the most basic stages.

This is especially true of the icons. Llave has signed up to put together some excellent ones for us, but I told him to wait a bit so we can hamper out one of the most important parts of the process, and one of the bigger reasons I'm writing this thread up for you guys:



Outline
Over the past few months, I've thought of a potential system we could implement for Post Ratings. As a result, I've come up with the following. This is a very, very rough draft, mind you, and as such is obviously subject to changes and improvements as we move along and talk this out.

The possible ratings that I believe we could use are:

Rating	Type of Rating	Forums to Be Enabled In	Explanation
Like	Positive	All	Basically what we have now. You see a post, it makes you chuckle, giggle, PTERODACTYL SCREECH, or whatever. You say "i like this, i like this" and click the button while hopefully not saying it to yourself more than twice.
Useful	Positive	Feedback & Assistance, Code Vault, Technology	There's usually quite a bit of referential things posted in these sections that you can often look back on and refer to. The Code Vault is riddled with codes, Technology has quite a few threads about tech and advice on browsers/computers/etc., and Feedback & Assistance can utilize this to show support for a suggestion and such if you might be too busy to post right away or are unsure how to voice your support.
Informative	Positive	Kingdom Hearts (all), Interests (all)	A lot of topics in these forums revolve around discussion and can open someone's eyes to something they hadn't realized or considered before, or teach someone something they didn't know about. Posts such as Claw's on Prescriptivism vs Descriptivism, libre's thread on the Next Gen Systems, the many show/movie/book reviews, and even explanations and theories on Kingdom Hearts set out to inform people of what things are and what the possibilities could be, and I don't think a simple 'like' really expresses that too much.
Creative	Positive	SpamZone, Playground, Creativity Corner	There are quite a few really inventive things that have spawned from the SpamZone and the Playground, such as the KH-Vids Unlocked game and Jiku's choose your own adventure story. I think it will also help bolster more confidence in people to post in the post counting creative sections as well. Even if there may not currently be too much in the way of replies, as often goes in the Writer's Nook as of late, having a way to say "I am not sure what to say, but this is really creative!" can help give the appreciation you may not be able to phrase right after reading.
Dislike	Negative	All	Can't really have a "Like" without "Dislike" ha. Jokes aside, this one is very much up to the community to decide if they would like or not. In the Why Rep Should Return: Our Posts Are Worth More Than a Like thread, I've seen valid arguments from both those who would be in support of a 'negative rep' and those against it. I don't have a current preference, but I do want to reiterate that if we do not get the Like Limit mod mentioned above, Dislike will be disabled.
Agree & Disagree	Neutral	Kingdom Hearts (all), Debate Corner	To be honest these are rather last minute ones I thought of recently. I think they'd be good for inspiring continuation of (peaceful) discussion. It may help you to refine your argument for a theory or what you're siding with more, and since both would be neutral, it wouldn't take or add anything to your Like count.

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Conclusion
From my perspective, I believe Post Ratings is our best option to both create a system that has some of the merits of the Reputation system while also enhancing our current Like system. With it, I believe we'll be able to have the best of both, and can easily and swiftly improve it as we move ahead with the future.

What I need you guys to do is to read through this thread and give feedback on the ratings suggested, as well as suggest your own!

At most, three suggested ratings can be added. I would like to keep our initial pool of them on the small side so we can judge effectiveness and tweak them more easily as opposed to going through like 10-15.

There has been a lot of support for an improved Like system, and I really want you all to be able to get involved with the change and help shape it up to be something the community would enjoy for quite a while.



FAQ

Yes! In the Admin CP, there is an option to disable showing the amount of Positive/Neutral/Negative ratings one has received.

Spoiler: All Showing

Spoiler: Only Positive Enabled

At the current moment, we will only be showing the amount of positive ratings you've received.

Good question! Likes will remain the same when we go to Post ratings. If we install & ever decide to uninstall Post Ratings, your Likes will not be affected. The ratings will be converted into Likes. Say I had 4000 Likes, 2 Dislikes, and 5 Neutrals. The 2 Dislikes would count as someone "unliking" a post of mine, and the 5 Neutrals will not effect anything, leaving me with a count of 3998 post-uninstall.

Nope! The numbers are unlinked, and just show how many ratings you've received and dealt out. I'm still looking into disabling the table and only showing the bar/numeral, but yeah.

 

It's The Spam Zone, not SpamZone, and The Playground, not Playground. Gosh, Plums, what is wrong with you?

I'm sure it's also possible to disable complete display in areas, such as the member card where it could become easily cluttered?

 

AWWWW HERE IT GOES

Solid start.

Diggin' it.

YEAH BABY.

Excellent.

This is unfortunate, but as it exists the ratings system is still a step up imo. I believe we should continue to keep an eye on the horizon here and see if a commentary add-on ever surfaces, because it is something I for one would appreciate.

I like this idea a lot. I think there should be an inherent limit on it, if for no other reason than to encourage people to think hard about the ratings they give out.

This I'm not so sure about, but I understand the wisdom behind it. Would greatly prefer the add-on though.

I don't see a problem with this at all. People should be held accountable for the negative ratings they give out. If they can just anonymously downvote a post because it rubbed them the wrong way, it's more liable to get out of hand.

We could use a few neutral ones, I think. Things that encourage the poster to improve, like "Room for Improvement." Or at least more constructive negative ones. Idk, I need to think on it more.

This is a nice idea. Negative comments shouldn't linger in people's minds anyway, as that rarely serves a purpose.

So those are my off-the-cuff impressions. Oh, and I like the bar best out of the formats. Nice and clean = w=

E: Son of a b████ Amaury stole first comment

 

oh GOD. Unfortunately I helmed that project so it never went anywhere :'D But it can be discussed in other threads, wouldn't wanna detract from the main point here.

So as to dilute the spam factor of this post, I thought I should mention I'm on board with all the positive ratings and I think they cover a wide spread of feedback. Also I just thought of a negative rating: "Rude." I daresay the use is self-explanatory.

 

Oh wow, glad to finally see stuff and know that there is significant progress. You've got a lot going on. This makes me really excited and I can't wait for the finished product to be released. In the mean time, I think we need more Neutral / Negative ones. I like Nova's Rude idea. It makes me laugh. A couple others I thought of while reading were Needs Improvement and Awkward [ neutral ].

 

I actually don't really think commentary is too necessary. Let's say, for example, that I rated your post with the neutral "Agree/Disagree." If I have more to add to that then, well... shouldn't I just post that? That's not only a simple extension of the act of posting, but I feel it would encourage discussion, as someone else (or even the original poster) might want to reply to the points that you raise.

Of course, there may be private comments that you wish to share, but for that we have profile comments & personal conversations.

I agree that disabling the dislike feature because there's no way to limit it seems a bit extreme. I think the system is easy enough to monitor by the staff that, if we see someone abusing the dislike function (like giving out thirty in one day or repeatedly disliking every post that someone makes) we can just handle that situation. Obviously that created complications back when we had rep, but given that ratings have a public display, I think that would deter people from abusing the system.

But this is a really great breakdown you've put together, Alex, and I've excited to finally see this implemented. I'm finishing up my semester right now so my life is crazy, but it'll die down considerably soon so I'll start playing around with ya after that, styling especially.

 

...Fair point. And it aligns with my push for accountability; if people have to post to share comments, then there's no hiding what they have to say.

Well, if Misty thinks we can handle it, I think we can handle it. And yeah, seeing as they're public there's more of a soft barrier on it than there was on rep.

 

Yes. When you disable the Positive/Negative/Neutral, it disables showing the amount of that rating you have everywhere (barring the table on your profile).

That's good because I love them & was going to force them on everyone anyway 8')

Noted down! I think I'll probably just add the suggestions to a poll towards the end of the week and have everyone vote for their top three & add them in when we get ready to bring it on over to KHV -- which will likely be towards late May/early June atm.

Excellent point! I hadn't connected the dots together like that, lol (i am good at my job probably). So yeah, dislikes will not be disabled since it should be arright to keep track of since they're public.

 

If it was already enabled, I would have already Liked, Useful'd, and Informative'd this post.

I do agree with what was said about more neutral or negative ratings. Rude and Needs Improvement sound good.

Just a thought: could "Useful" be added to the Help with Life section?

 

I feel like a simple Like would suffice there, as many people use it as a sort of thank-you already. Then again, we could always add an actual "Thank You."

 

You can still suggest potential ratings and I can add them into the poll, but make sure to submit them here before 11:59 PM EST on Wednesday, May 14th! I'll put up a poll after that deadline is up, and that'll go until May 17th.

also I figured out CSS so look at the small yet neater changes I made


No more borders. Going with the original plan I mentioned of having only positive ratings show in the bar, the result will be a single green bar below pins that you can hover over and see how many positive ratings they've received total. It'll look like this:



I rather like the positioning where it is, especially considering the bar is entirely solid -- doesn't seem to out of place or act as a barrier to the other info.



Dotted line has been made gray due to white standing out too much.




Borders removed here too.

 

Looking nice, Alex! Although I'd brighten the gray text a bit and make it more white.

Also, we're in DST, so EDT. God, Plums, what is wrong with you!?

 

points to quote above

 

*points out to Plums again that that should be EDT* :P

 

Was the poll ever posted? It's likely that I obliviously missed it without realizing.

 

Nope, you didn't miss it. I had never put the poll up since I was waiting on more suggestions & ended up getting busy. However, considering we were taking a max of three to implement and there have only been three suggestions, a poll may not be necessary at this point, heh.

Like Nova said, I think 'Like' could be useful enough, but if a number of people feel 'Useful' would be a nice addition in Help with Life, I wouldn't add minding it.

 

I really like this idea because of its similarity to rep. I have a few must-haves before I will fully endorse it, though.

#1: Per User and Per Day Limits

Limits are very important. Not only does not having them make the system as watered down as likes, it presents a serious risk with negative ratings. Even if we only have one negative option, it will be possible to spam negative ratings on people ad infinitum at a rate staff cannot control. Same goes for positives.

Limiting things so that a person cannot rate the same person repeatedly and limiting a user to give only so many total rates per day are paramount.

#2: Halving Negative Ratings

I highly suggest adding in your own customization to halve the points added by dislikes like we did with rep. Should be as simple as adding '/ 2' in negative rep calculation.

#3: Remove Visibility for Specific Content

Hide all ratings for a post from all but staff, the giver and the recipient of the rating. If that is not possible, then make the ratings visible only on a by user basis instead of by post.

Reasoning: The Matthew effect. When a user looks at a post and sees it has been liked/disliked and, more importantly, knows that others will see their own rating, their decision to rate it is affected. People should not have their opinions swayed in this way. Seeing who gave those ratings can make the effect even stronger.

It affects me personally as well as others who don't even know it's a thing. My awareness does nothing. Sometimes, it makes me like a post/think it is better than it is. Other times, it makes me stay away from posts that are popular because I don't want to join the wagon. I personally have hidden likes on my end because I believe that seeing the likes will influence me. No one is above cognitive bias.

The closer to the old rep system, the better.

#4: One Rating Per User Per Post

If I understand correctly, you can give the same post multiple ratings of different kinds. I don't think we should be able to do that. Instead, we should only be able to give one rating for each post.

Reasoning: People could abuse the system to give as many positive or negative ratings as possible to a post whether they are relevant or not. If you need to add multiple ratings, you can suggest a better rating that combines the sentiments. Or...

#5: (More) Specific Comments

I don't like Like and Dislike. They are extremely vague. This is one of the reasons why I enjoyed the comments. There are nuances to every preference.

I still really want to have personalized comments, if possible. They are the best option because they leave everyone happy with every positive and negative rep they give. They don't have to fit a mold.

Misty brought up a decent point about posting if you have another comment, but I have a retort. One of the appeals of the rep system was privacy and lack of public drama. The specific rep that you gave was between you, the person you gave it to, and the staff. You might ask why not send a PM. The answer is simple: if I thought it was worth having a conversation over, I wouldn't be inclined to rep it in the first place. PMs also cannot be moderated without reports.

Sometimes a person has something to say about a post, wants the member to hear it, but doesn't think it is worth starting a conversation in public or private. That is what the rep system was for and I believe the rating system should be for it, too.

If comments are impossible, then...

Like could be changed to a collection of more specific praises, like:

Awesome
Made me laugh
Good point(s)
Thank you

Dislike could be changed to a collection of more specific criticisms, like:

Unhelpful
Don't do that
Not enough effort

And so on and so forth. They should be as close to actual comments as we can get them while still being something members can use.

#6: Remove Icons/Images

The images provided for the ratings are tacky and take away from the comments associated with them. They make it clear that the rating was automated and take out a part of the personal element. If a user wouldn't add an image, don't add one for them. The closer to clean, personal comments we can make them, the happier I will be.

I really, really want to limit likes no matter what happens. If it can do either of the things old rep could do with limits (limits per user and per day), I'm all for it.

 

To be clear, we are not aiming to recreate the reputation system here; we're attempting to reach a middle ground between it and the, admittedly, overly simplified likes system. Personalized comments are not within the scope of the post ratings add-on which was consciously selected over a mere clone of the vB reputation system. That said, there is no existing functionality to limit ratings given per day. I suppose it could always be added in the future but those suggestions currently aren't possible.

Plums would know better than me but I'm fairly certain that a user can only rate a single post once (e.g. if I hit like, I can't also hit useful & informative for the same post).

As for halving negative ratings, it would be possible with a few simple template edits, but as Plums stated, negative rating counts aren't displayed anywhere but here:

(it's a block on the sidebar of user profiles)
Here it wouldn't make sense to halve the values as it's a count of quantity -- though it could still, I believe, be halved. Still, I think that would be confusing and misleading.

 

I think they should be halved because of the user's overall rating system.

I think that the user's overall rating should include negatives, like it shows with the bars or numbers on user cards.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'not aiming to'. If you could aim for the old reputation system, would you intentionally choose not to?