Kingdom Hearts II Just a Weird Thought

What saddens me is that you have given the most feedback but then you say things such as this. "That it relies on gender." Also, Riku WAS saved wasn't he? True not in the same directness as Kairi, I will hand you that, but Riku was still saved, just in a different manner (and less hand holding through the saving process, unless you count Mickey's aid in all this).

I wonder why people find it so shocking when I suggest this: As I understand it Xehanort's heartless literally swaps places with Riku or at least some sort of elaborate shell, so I doubt a thing like gender would really stop him from accomplishing what he wants. It would be awkward but Villains can't be spared this minor detail in the grand scheme of their plans, and if they can, well then they have their priorities a bit on a tilted scale. If anything, it'd be an even more dramatic plot twist and Riku's point of "never going back" would make even more sense. (And another "children's game" I can think of -save for the animated blood- has a perfect scenario of this "villain does not care for gender in order to possess" would be in LoZ: Twilight Princess, I will not say more as it would be a spoiler.)

Also your points do not fully cover on WHY this cannot be done aside from breaking some crusty archetype and the points I have stated above. And isn't there such thing as a "fine line"? Usually things aren't clean cut just like the whole debate over the Nobodies were, so something about "who Sora gets paired off with" would be just another of those choices now wouldn't it?

(PS: Your love triangle examples have one tragic flaw, one of the participating members in each of them are dead.)

 

I'm really just starting to realize what is it that you want to hear, because apparently, none of them would do for you, and you're looking for a specific answer. You asked for people's opinions, yet you keep rebutting them because you just can't agree.

The true is, it does rely on gender. Do you honestly believe that things in the game would still be the same if Riku was a girl? If Riku will have the deep development when there's another girl in the group, and she's been done nothing with, the favoritism would show, and it would only be labeled unfair. If girl Riku has such a plot, then so will Kairi. That's a change in the story. If girl Riku has a weapon and is a fighter, Kairi would have had some type of power in the first place. That's another change. Let's say if your favorite character was Kairi, would it not bother you that she keeps getting left out in the dust, while Riku gets the most growth? Vice-versa? Another change. Is not archetype, is just the development that's chosen. If the group involved two girls and a guy, there are many paths the creator can go with. The few I mentioned in my past post are only some.

While the circulation might not be the same, it always follows a certain trend. His role could be anything, he could be still tough, a "tomboy", same personality, a simple platonic best friend or love interest, yet the whole position of the trio would contrast as well. What's the first thing people think when visioning two girls, one guy, who are friends since childhood? Even if Riku was a girl, and what they both did for each other was still kept, I would not believe that they are anything linked romantically unless the game focuses more into what direction is going. There's romantic love, and brother/sister love. If the same actions are kept for what Kairi and Riku did (despite him being a girl), as well as Sora himself in the game, then I would obvious go for Kairi. It can go so many ways.

And no, Riku saved himself. No matter how hard Sora tried, he still kept going further into darkness, and it wasn't until mentionable scenes that Riku himself slowly started to figure out what he was doing, especially after seeing Sora's sacrifice which finally hit home. And considering Ansem was locked up in him, he had to deal with this without anyone's help, which was his part in CoM. To say Riku was saved, will just demean his redemption. Face it. You'll never see a guy be a "damsel in distress", at least in KH, Kairi herself is a archetype, and I don't see why the creator won't follow it as he's been doing so already. Riku is a archetype of the redemption character who tries to right his wrongs, Sora is the happy-go-lucky hero.

The thing we can agree on. However, what I was trying to point out was the fact that obvious grown looking man, possessing a 14/15 year old, adding the change of clothes, and the fact that he still lives and haunts her inside will make some, not all, question. You have to think also on how girls are affected in the current reality that we live in.

I'm not saying this cannot be done (if you're talking of Riku being switched to be a girl), unless your referring with keeping the same storyline, because it wouldn't work. When someone has a story in mind, they have a specific vision, and thus, when creating the characters and their roles, they have to add certain aspects. What would deepen the friendship between Sora and Riku? What would hint to gamer to what pairing I can show? What can I do to develop this said character and what importance would they mean to the hero? These are all factors to bear in mind. To change one, others things (though not all) have to follow the same suit to fit. If the fans want to interpret it differently, than fine, they're the ones who are buying the game. It doesn't mean the intent of the director has to be the same.

Doesn't disturb the fact that she isn't important to the hero and that because she's dead, the effect she had on him goes away the moment she's gone. If you want more prime examples, take Bleach: Inoue/Ichigo/Rukia. Take Naruto: Sasuke/Sakura/Naruto.

And there you go *sigh*. That's my reason on why in a thorough explanation of it. Then again, I'm not exactly sure what is it you're asking.

 

rofl. If forums were meant just for "showcasing our opinions", then there'd be no point for the reply button, would there? There's nothing wrong with Zandyne putting into questiton your thoughts or giving input on what she thinks of your opinion, if just to get a clearer idea of what you were saying and to further the discussion. If you're so vehement on people "rebutting" your thoughts, then why bother posting in these sections at all?

 

I know what the forum is meant for, I know why I'm posting, and I never said there was nothing wrong in doing so. I just noticed the current phenomenom that all replies are being responded by her. I understand that you could disagree with people here and there, but so far, I've not seen it to that measure, and that's what I was referring to, along with the stated reason that she may be doing so because she's looking for a specific answer to the said idea. My vindictiveness, which sometimes gets in when replying to these type of situations, might've overshadowed it. That is all.

 

The biggest problem with making Riku female in the stories would be that Sora is VERY over-protective of girls to the point where he doesn't want them in combat's way. He denied Kairi when she wanted to go help find Riku. If Riku was there growing up as a girl as well...it would just make another love interest for Sora and instead of basically Riku and Sora being friends but also having some interest in Kairi...it would be Sora has two girls to choose from. The strong girl that fights and can kick butt (Riku) or the Princess girl that gets kidnapped all of the time.

I'm not going to say it wouldn't be probable that all of the other events could have happened such as Xehanort's Heartless taking over Riku whether in female form or not because I guess it doesn't creep me out as much as it does some others. However, it would seem to me that there would instead be jealousy that Riku would be corrupted over Kairi instead of between him and Sora. The Darkness corrupted him to believe many things were worse and more devious than originally they were. So it could have even gotten ugly to the point that Riku may have not cared at all for Kairi and the sacrifice to keep her safe that Riku did would have been for nothing. Sora then would have been too late to save her.

I see some alterations such as what I mentioned because Sora is so protective over girls and also Riku's character would still have to be strong in order to do the things in the story but it would have had an effect later near the end. Riku would have been very mad that Sora wasn't paying attention to her and I think the repercussions would have been really really bad. Then again, we don't know for sure since Sora is so protective, that he might have actually convinced a female Riku to remain and told Donald to shut up. It's difficult to say there.

To me, Riku looked more 'manly' than Sora did. He had a teenage boy build of a very athletic male. His hair and face were a bit misleading but Sora had gentle features too with a thinner form so I actually thought Sora was more feminine in appearance. In KH though a lot of characters had gentle features like Cloud and Leon too. It was just the way they did the artwork because we have to have our fan service I guess.

 

Because it's her thread...? And I'm sorry, but "good measure"?

You don't say, but you seem to have a problem with people confronting your opinions, whether it be a remark, counter or even an interrogation. (Well in this case, you imply everyone who has posted thus far in this thread) I'm drawing this point from an old thread as well.

 

You're really running this through, aren't you?

She can do whatever she wants in her thread. And apparently, you've missed again, that I was just merely commenting on the fact that I've never seen a person reply to all the posts here (basically, some just pick out a few that they disagree with here and there), thus, I came to the conclusion she's looking for something. I never said what she's doing is horrible, I never said she has to stop, I never said that she couldn't do so. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know I broke a law there on making a comment. You're acting as if I somehow insulted her for a reply that wasn't related to you in the first place.

In that case, almost everyone seem to have a problem with confronting others opinions, whether it be a remark, counter or even an interrogation. If it responds to me, I'll reply as such, and give further detail in the long run. She wanted the WHY, and I handed it to her for more understanding. And what old thread would that be? (I only have one in mind) I barely answer to anything. If I had a "problem", there would be many more where that came from, dear. I usually stay out.

 

it would make a lot of fangirls squeel cause everyone just LOVES the sora x riku pair -.- >> <<

 

COLOR-CODED FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE! 8]

Actually I asked to see if anyone could think it through with some logic, instead I bequeathed some of the strangest sexist statements and generalizations I have ever heard on this forum. Also, when one is asking for opinions they generally wish for proof, saying "it would change the plot" and not saying HOW it does is not exactly what I had in mind. Also I am supplying counterexamples for the scant one or two objections I have heard/read, because if those one or two objections are it, then that would not be a very solid argument now would it?

And to answer this part, why yes I do. I like how you pointed out the character favoritism, though I must say I always thought character favoritism wasn't limited to gender. Also your point (of if Female Riku has a weapon from the start so should Kairi) is made invalid because one doesn't have to have a comparison to have a trait (and Kairi did, for some random reason did acquire a weapon on KH2, so once more you point has even less grounds). Kairi was made to be a helpless girl and Riku was made to be a fighter. Also consider poor Selphie who is also a female, she had a weapon and could fight (caliber withholding), this would technically make Selphie a fighter despite being even more of a romantic than Kairi. Also your suggestion on Kairi having even deeper character development (just because the female Riku would and if the story was the same would only highlight this problem more) is a weakness of the KH trio, the fact she lacks one is a grievous flaw in on itself (and one of the main reasons I at least dislike her as a character).

The problem with your claims is that you assume there would be radical changes if Riku was a female, I only suggested a change in gender, not events. This on itself, Sora is supplied only meager hints of having a crush on Kairi (Kairi expresses this more with her actual lines and hopes and inclinations, etc.) and also, not everything in a relationship goes swimmingly. Sometimes not everyone can be happy you know? And your last line somewhat confuses me in its phrasing unless you are saying that "given the same events Sora would still be implied to go after Kairi", if so I never objected to this.

"Save" has many connotations. You assumed the "in dire distress" didn't you? Anyway, Riku was saved in one way, if he saved himself then things would NOT have gotten as bad as they did. And in CoM MICKEY saves his bacon, or if you deny that, in the very least aided him. Getting help doesn't make the accomplishment any less (look how much he did on his own in KH2 on his own anyway!).

That last comment makes utterly no sense. ...How does this make my input less valid? Also it more than explains Riku's distress even for the slow-on-the-uptake ones. Just saying in theory.

You have yet to have stated specific examples of HOW and WHY this cannot be done. Also in case you are misled, I don't -wish- that Riku was a girl, I merely speculated how it would change the overall story. So far no one has offered up any really awesome examples of why Riku absolutely cannot be a female and still have the plot work out the same. (One minor scene which does not heinously alter the plot does not dictate this!) So far the only "reasons" I have heard are purely aesthetic, such as "that would make female Riku a tomboy" or some other lame sexist stereotype (Tifa and Yuffie are both fighters and Sora had to fight them, the boy knows how to defend himself and he didn't stop them from fighting at all during the prelude to the 1000 Heartless! Which means if female Riku was a good fighter, Sora wouldn't stop her.)

And once more I restate the secret of Marluxia, he was intended to be FEMALE and was changed to MALE at the last moment. So really, some stories are not utterly thrashed just because of a gender-swap. I mean no disrespect to Nomura but I wouldn't be surprised that the gender-swap on Marluxia's end wasn't just because he didn't want a female character with a position of power.

I said nor implied any such thing, but a very important point on both of those love-triangles was that after that third member died (and through time), the male was able to move on with the aid of the "rivalling female" (Tifa and Cloud in the FF7 case, albeit implied; and Kagome and Inuyasha in the Inuyahsa case).

Once more I find your choice in comparative examples amusing and not serving you well. The Sasuke/Sakura/Naruto one is one that has Sakura (the equal of Kairi) going after Sasuke (the equal of Riku) while Naruto (Equal of Sora) is chasing after Sakura...though he somewhat appears to give up after the year skip. As for your Inoue/Ichigo/Rukia one....that has two girls in the trio to compare to a group with two guys in the trio. Does this mean Kairi is the equivalent of Ichigo...? In which case, I must say Ichigo is much more interested in fighting then pursing either romantically. (In addition he seems to greatly fear the female body.)

And despite however negative I may and probably sound *TwilghtNight*, thank you for taking the time to type out a more thorough response than others, though I really wish you would use more in-game examples such as if this scene happened with the change it would not work because of -insert reason- rather than more speculation to counter my speculation.

In case anyone wants to know, I usually try to reply to everything in any thread I start. Repeats are usually not addressed unless it's longer than a sentence or have a different perspective, or I generally forget I have already replied to the same "reply", I don't even bother to reply to the one-liners that are totally off tangent either. I don't know, maybe it's just me. But in regards to the "looking for something"-

OH NOES YOU HAVE DISCOVERED MY PLOT! I'm just a clever ass whose mind cannot be changed I am here to just frustrate people- hahaha, sorry, not really, though I'm sure some feel that way.

Actually the whole point of this thread is that I wanted people to really CONSIDER the distribution of "character" here and their respective characteristics. Last I checked emotional characteristics were not limited to a gender. And if you re-read my initial post, you can see where my curiosity stems from. But to save you the time I shall restate it.

I heard that Marluxia (by far one of the most picked on characters and called female despite having a very masculine build save for "hair color") was originally slated to be a girl and at Nomura's choice was ultimately changed to be a MALE. This is what led me to WONDER, and really think about certain traits and overall plot. As you know blocks make a building, and changing one or two blocks can result in generally the same building even if it is not exact. In Marluxia's case the only thing (I can recall off the top of my head) that would be deemed awkward coming from a female's mouth would be the line "I wish the keyblade wielder was a female" and since Namine is in his care would imply he rather looks down on the female sex or at least views them as being more controllable.

Now in Riku's case, most of his events can take place in either the male or female perspective, all other variables held constant, aside from the implications of the Papou Scene in KH1 and obviously a shift in "possible romantic interests" (implied but never explicitly stated). Hence my pondering of this apparently TABOO subject. What I'm really looking for is a definite, unchangeable reason as to why the gender set-up is the way it is (aside from the obvious fact I am not the game creator). Since the trio is heavily discussed, I just picked the one that seemed to be the most "debatable" and went from there (I'd personally would love to do a full discussion on how much would change if the genders were swapped but judging by the general replies here it wouldn't be a wise topic of discussion).

Also, I apologize to the rest of the thread-viewers that this wasn't another thread on what your favorite pairing is, favorite/least favorite Organization Member, or favorite whatever was...I swear to never ask a thought question like this again. :\

For others who wish to continue discussing, I eagerly await your replies. I also would like to restate and clear up any confusion that I am only doing this out of curiosity and with no malice towards anyone who stays on topic. (Hopefully this covers your reply *TwilightNight*)

 

Yes, it covers it. Alright, now I understand. I'm not going to reply due to the reason that I kind of did not understand what you were asking for. In that word, I apologize for misinterpreting your intention there, and misguiding myself. What you pose is something hard to think of, or at least, go deep into thought for concerning the game itself. If I have time, I'll probably be able to take the time and answer. Maybe you'll get better responses now, though.

 

roflflflfl, I'm not /: Like you were commenting on her "behavior", I was commenting on your accusation - and just you/that, not anyone/thing else. I simply found it heavily curious since - I as well - have never read such a thing, especially if the person knew the concept of a forum. Call it "a comment towards yours", but there really was no need to get so jumpy. This is why I 'felt' you had a problem - and when I said it, it wasn't supposed to be an insult in anyway, but more like expressing my regards which also happened to be (some of) the base for commenting in the first place. And if you still don't get the point of this paragraph since you normally do miss them, IN A NUTSHELL: I'm excusing myself.

And, lmao, I understand full well you were just commenting on her constant replies, and your reasons thereof - I as per usual was questioning it, and later made a remark. Running it? I don't really know what you're implying with that, but I'll say this:

I have a tendency to roll like that, commenting on a comment whether it was directed to me or not. When I have a say in regards to a comment, I say it.

So anyway, I apologize myself for straying off-topic like that without adding anything to the discussion. But with Zandyne's recent post, which has definitely given the light on what exactly we are to talk about, I have a little something:

First off, was it ever mentioned why Nomura so suddenly decided to change Marly's gender? If gender really was obsolete in his eyes, there'd be no NEED for him to change Marly to begin with, would there? (As in maybe, during the development of the character/game, he thought Marly's characteristics were too strong to be lead by a female? I personally doubt it (Look at Larxene!) but it’s a possibility. It's pretty common nowadays for SE to give us a share of strong female characters as opposed to before, such as the still in development FFXIII's protagonist. XII had Ashe, and could be considered a protagonist as well (but wasn't created by Nomura)) But, more on topic now.

The only real reason I can give as to why Riku’s gender is as such (and wouldn’t roll as a woman) is because of the mainstream. In the “norm”, in our “society”, there are a set of “rules of interaction” one would expect between certain people when enjoying a type of mass media. (IE: Two guys (who are fighters) are very often rivals at the same time)

If we look at our trio and dissect these rules, we can see that;
- One of the boys is the Hero
- The two boys are "rivals"
- The two boys are best friends
- The girl is (supposedly) the love interest of the two (or one of them, depending on how you look at it)
- The girl is a damsel in distress ( /: ), or "caught in the middle" in some way
- The other boy (ie: not Hero) later becomes an enemy

I personally have never seen a trio that is composed of two girls and one guy, where one of the girls acts as a best friend, and at the while a (stronger) combat rival for the Hero. (...Or maybe I have. Well at the moment nothing is coming to me, so feel free to bring any examples) Very often, when a boy and girl (around the same age) in a mass media are allies, it's assumed (DESPITE doing any research on the media) that they're in a romantic couple, or will be in the future. Likewise for when two boys are allies, it's assumed they're either rivals, close combat allies or/and good friends in someway. Usually the same sex allies are the ones which are closer in terms of friendship (as in discussing about more personal things, love), rather than one of them being closer with the opposite sex in that context. There's a pattern in which we follow and automatically brand this and that, and creators are well aware of this and cater to it.

This isn't to say it's not possible for change and variation to happen. Incidentally that's where some of the recognition of a type of media springs, for achieving something which was OTHER than what we see in the norm. At the moment all I have are more "innovator" examples, but I think the point is still valid.

So all that to say: even with the characteristics and interaction staying the same were Riku to swap his pen!is for a vagoo, I personally would see no real changes to Kingdom Hearts itself, if just a different approach to what I'm more used to seeing in terms of interaction between a trio with certain genders.

Riku could easily be seen as the elder sister/mentor (a bit like Quistis from FF8, around the end of the game) of the trio who cares for them, and I have no doubts either that more people would also consider "her" as another love interest for Sora. I'd also have to comment on what Repliku said earlier about Sora being over-protective over girls - I think he'd only do so if he knew they couldn't fight and thus, would want to spare them the danger. In this case, assuming Riku is a female but keeps his characteristics and interactions with Sora (strong archetype rival/best bud), I doubt he'd have to interfere with Riku going into combat. Through-out the KH series, he's been battling with them (Mulan and Arial).

 

If Riku would have been a girl... There would be more SoraXRiku stuff! Not a lot though, it's scary how popular the couple is...
Somewhat off topic, me and my siblings thought that Sora was a girl until he spoke... Probably cuz Digimon had just started here, and it had a chick called Sora on it!

 

This is a bit off topic, but at the same time it isnt, if anyone have ever seen the anime "IGPX" Riku would be a lot like Liz. Liz is loud, obnoxious, but is really caring and is a tough fighter...

This idea has been tried before in many stories...Nomura wouldnt go through the trouble of "dressing Riku up"...he'd rather follow the same type of personality traits that everyone else does...

I'm not sure of what the major debate is about (didnt feel like reading XD) but having two girls/ 1 boy would be interesting, especially for a game like KH....they might've even turned Ansem into a woman O.O

 

If Riku was a girl, then Sora wouldn't have cried when he saw him/her(whichever way u view it), he would have made out with him/her...

 

Well, in the game...That would actually be pretty cool to me. I dont see how it could majorly affect the game (except when Riku was hiding from Sora and leaving clues, maybe he wouldn't have been so secretive. Maybe he would've just came out and said 'Sora, I'm Riku' and like...kissed him or something dramatic like that XD That would've been cool.) Also, Riku would probably not be as harsh as he was, and if he were, his feelings may be more apparent. I dont know. Nice thought.

 

Hmm... I must admit, it would be interesting... It'd be another Yuffie-like character, but just a little more angst... Probably be only minor changes to the main plotline, however- I don't think Xehanort's Heartless would actually care what gender his host was as long as he could still contol the darkness in their heart.