"If your worldview can be dismantled within eight seconds, then get a better one."

Not so much consistent as rigid. Logic evolves and changes with time to maintain the consistency of logic; there is no one logical course of action. Religion can easily change as long as the message stays the same, after all that's all that's really important in the long run. It's simply rooted in tradition that out dates the message. It's rather ridiculous that women aren't allowed to become priests, or that despite a strong stance against the AIDs pandemic that the Church won't distribute contraceptives within countries like Africa. The world is changing, and so to does how one views their faith. It's a natural part of life and if religion intends to remain a part of our lives it must also change. Few changes have been made, and the effort is there so it's simply a matter of time.

 

I disagree that believing in a 'false' god causes people to do irrational things. There's no real proof that there are 'gods' at all but there's no proof there were never any either. Also, people interpret these gods as they will. As for your question about Thor or Loki etc, I don't know if they are any more real to me than Yahweh is. I'm an Atheist and with no proof I cannot say any of it is -real- regardless of how many people jump on a band wagon to tell me it is. The "Majority" feeling that something is real does not mean it is 'true'. I think 'real' gods though could make people do things as well, if they exist though. Also, on the point of Majority versus Minority...a cult is a religion that is not accepted as mainstream. A religion is a cult that has gained social standing in a society. It's a typical anthropological thing.

In the end, to believe in any deity is to place yourself in the hands of someone else. It excuses rational thought, condemns personal freedom and choice, and takes away personal liberties. People say they believe because it gives them hope but all I tend to really see is an excuse to blame weakness on sin against a deity, beg for forgiveness to a deity and not the persons that were wronged but think that works so confrontation is avoided, and to try to get out of crimes committed. It also helps explain in black and white a world that is so multi-colored and multi-faceted it could never just be explained through one book. It gives hope to those who will not accept that people die. They need something to move onto and well, in the end I don't know whether there's anything after life, so I choose to just leave the question mark there because the monotheistic religions sound so fake.

Also, I agree with Pika_Power when he said religion doesn't seem to be really moving forwards at all. The Televangelists that swear up and down they move away from things are actually slowing people down in the ways of intelligence. It is a cult to me worse than any other group in America at this time and I see their horrible impressions all the time in news, politics and their agendas to wipe out scientific research and dismiss anything outside of a book that was written years ago. They condemn all others who differ whether Christian or not and try to alienate people and it's really becoming a mental disease. I fear that if education were ever taken fully out of the government, kids would entirely grow up in some regions with no science at all and only Christian ethics of fundamentalists. Religion may be accepted as the norm, but it seems to stagnate while spirituality and mental growth, science and other things want to move on and develop.

Also, it wasn't 'Scientists' that started the 'war' versus religion, White Rook. There were many prominent Christian scholars that were excommunicated from the Church for their studies and even today scientists get called blasphemers for doing nothing other than studying. Darwin was not a believer but at first he was and even thought of becoming a priest. He changed his own mind and was threatened by the Church numerous times and then the little conspiracy by a religious woman to say he had converted back to faith at his death bed was uncalled for too and a lie. Sure, Atheists lie, but Christians lie a lot more because they have more to cover up and fear to instill. They believe they are 'saving the world'. I'll give the Catholic Church though some credit. The Catholic Church still attempts to do things with science involved such as the astronomy seminar held sometime earlier this year, which does make up for some views and deeds of the past. I don't see other Christian groups even trying except for 'creationist scientists' which are a joke and try to twist science to their views. Science was not out to disprove Yahweh. It was out to find answers and that is what any scientist tries to do. If a scientist happens to be Atheist, he/she is. However, there are many scientists who are Christian and don't go through solid efforts to muddle up science with dogmatic beliefs and instead research.

Any ways, I ramble. whee~

 

I disagree with several points in that post. Religious people might be trying to improve the human race, but extreme cases are doing the exact opposite. The same applies to those who believe in science; extreme cases of both are just as bad. However, religion is mostly based on assumptions with nothing but theoretical evidence to back it up and religious beliefs are set in stone whereas science takes a completely different view point on life: science uses the most logical explanation that can be drawn from the information we currently have and unlike in religion where the point is to prove that you're right, scientists are constantly trying to prove their old theories wrong and by doing so, they're constantly getting a better idea of the world. Science doesn't rule out any explanations, it just uses the most probable explanation we currently have.

True, religion is more consistent, but unlike science, that tries to patch up the holes in each theory, religion just turns to a supernatural explanation. Some people have actually calculated the chances of a God existing and although it is there, the probability is so low I'd rather support the theories that have some real proof behind them.

And true, religion isn't always irrational, but you're wrong on science not always being logical. Anything that can be explained using the laws of physic or can be calculated using a mathematical formula is logically logical since it can be proven. If something in science seems illogical, it either isn't scientific or we just haven't figured out how to prove it yet.

Science essentially just explains how everything works, it's the way people (ab)use it that makes it destructive and thus, science doesn't destroy anything, people do.

 

xD I am going to assume that you aren't a religious person. Am I correct? and thank you for backing up my point so nicely. That science will always disagree with religion and vice versa. I don't doubt any of what you are saying :P I am not religious myself either, but I can at least acknowledge and make an attempt to see the world from their point of view too.​

 

The problem here though is that you say science tries to destroy it while religion tries to make things better. I would have to strongly disagree with that. Many of the wars fought throughout history had nothing to do with 'science' but instead with biases people had towards one another and a common one is religious intolerance. Sure, some groups of people who are religious give and do charity but so do many people in science. We would not have wondrous technologies now to aid people if it wasn't for the scientists who work day and night toiling over medicines, vehicles, containers, transportation, food growth and storages etc. No war I can think of was fought because of 'Science' itself. People 'use' science to aid them in destroying but also in creating things. Religion is stagnation and tells others that if they don't believe they are condemned to eternal suffering and that you do good things because you fear a bad afterlife. Science doesn't fear a bad afterlife. It tries to take care of things now in life and make things easier.

To save the world in many religious people's minds is to turn everyone over to that same religion that group is. It robs people of personal choice and independent thought. I consider that slavery should not be tolerated, especially against a person's very will to be something else and believe in other things. Diversity is what allows us to invent, create, and not stagnate or be dominated by one thing. I don't consider that a peaceful thing at all. Charity also is something I debate when groups do it because there is a -serious- personal gain. If I give someone money for medicine, food or what not, I expect -nothing- in return. Not a thank you or anything. It's theirs. I don't expect them to read a book, tell them to go to Church etc. That is not compassion to me. I'd say all in all, religion gives nothing more than science ever has and has done a lot more damage. A gun can't kill a person if it's sitting on a table. A microwave can't kill a person if used the way it's meant to be used. That's science. Religion that encourages someone to kill or tells people that it is saving people by converting them to their beliefs through acts of 'kindness and generosity'...that's manipulation. What exactly is 'science' manipulating? It's a search for truth, exploring, inventing and creating. It's understanding. It's not carrying out anything on orders of destruction. Fundamentalists do that.

 

Okay, I will reword myself. Believing in a god can/will lead to irrational/illogical things. If I utterly convince myself that God wants me to track you down and kill you, then eventually I will start to try to kill you. It is only natural.

Also you just said that you agree that religion is holding us back, but that is an illogical product of believing in a god.

Sorry, but I feel your post is contradicting itself. I look forward to reading your reply :D

Less rambling than you, yet more nonsense, weeee!

 

Well, what I meant in short was that any god cannot be disproved or proved. So though I consider none really exist, at least how people have accounted for them, I don't consider any to be more false than any other. I consider in the end that Thor and Horus are just as real as Yahweh is, if that makes the thought more clear.

Otherwise, yes, I agreed with what you were stating and religion does hold people back and tries to stagnate people into a train of thought. I do not want to 'condemn' people for believing in something I don't, of course, but I do see the awful effects that religion has done and people often try to say they do 'charity' to counter the argument that there are idiots out there who are killing, harming, doing passive aggressive or violent behavior to others for feeling different, and some of these people too give to charity. In the name of any deity, atrocities have been done and to me I think something needs seriously evaluated when little kids are even threatening others of an eternal after life of torture casually and learn this from adults. I don't agree with raising children under 'promise' and 'fear' and letting adults have the right to do so instead of teaching them neutral lessons and letting -them- decide when of age instead of threatening to disown them...I just think religion is a bunch of unneeded brainwashing. There are too many people out there that stupidly believe that humans can only -be good- under the threat of eternal damnation, and that we should be good because some guys were martyrs and we should be that way too. They have -no- concept of how to live without that and so torment others who don't want it in their lives.

This is why I say religion of any kind can be very harmful. Some people handle it a lot better than others but there are -way- too many people that abuse it and I cannot see 'Science' in itself as harmful at all. It is encouraging people to -think-. There are some scientists that do 'bad' things, but in the end, if they do, they are also taken care of and dealt with and punished to the extremes of the law. The same cannot be said about religious people that do wrong. In fact, even if someone is religious, if they go to prison they can get out by being religious, reborn, etc while I don't see any such rewards to people for stopping the belief in Yahweh or Allah. It's horribly imbalanced and the law should not cater to such things. Hope that makes more sense on what I was trying to ramble on with.

 

True about Gods unable to be disproven, yet there is no proof, and without proof it is false.

It is up to the followers of the Religion to prove it. Just like if I say a magic unicorn willll apear if someone crawls around the earth 1 million times, it is not everyone elses job to crawl, it is mine. I would have to prove it, not you or anyone else.

Make sense?

From what I have seen, this is a irrefutable argument. If you deign that it is the Religion's job to prove it, I say "start crawling"

Works, right?

 

Please do not put words in my mouth, and please show me where I said that, because I did not. For some reason my posts seem to be being interpreted as pro religion anti science. That is not what I am saying, what I have said TWICE now is that science and religion can not and will not ever agree, they both run along side each other but are too different to even be realistically compared to each other. ​

 

That's the line there. You said something that seemed to be implying that the human race and science are destroying it. Did you mean they are destroying religion? If so, I did indeed misinterpret what you said and my apologies.

 

XD dude what I meant was that TO PEOPLE WHO ARE RELIGIOUS, it is seen that science is destroying things, as in RELIGIOUS PEOPLE think that, not me, I was pointing out that both sides think the other is to blame​

 

Ah, well my apologies for taking it out of context. =:)
The only way though I see that 'science' can be taken as destroying things is that it makes you question religion which in many cases is a narty thing to do. Then again, I love science and studying stuff so I am on one side of the coin nearly entirely. I don't -mind- people believing in things etc, but the threats have always come from Organized Religion. I have yet to see where a threat was made truly by Science to do anything other than make people question things and have a more open mind. No one has died yet from Science saying 'open your mind and get away from religion or we kill you'. It has always been religion that condemned scientists even of their own ilk.

As for the statement that Science and Religion can never get along...I do ponder that. Surely for some things, you are absolutely right and I would guess it depends on what level of 'religious' the person is. If they are fundamentalists, science is obviously not their friend. However, a moderate believer who has an open mind I believe could be both into science and religion and probably be fine. After all, I do know quite a few professors in college that are Christian or Islamic etc and yet are also in the science fields. They aren't Creationists either (because I'd make fun of them...yes..that is the reason.) so I do think it can work when people are willing to face some facts that the Bible and other such books can't be taken wholeheartedly and that these books were in fact written by -men- in a time of little science. However, if people want to take the Bible literally and believe that the moon casts its own glow...well, yes, it can never work.

Which brings up another point of a worry for me I suppose. If the education system was ever canceled out as some people want to abolish it...then states would make their own education systems more and well, that education could differ greatly. Already people in some areas try to force Creationism in schools and try to abolish Evolution and many other science things which takes out Geology, Biology and Chemistry to say the least. I truly do worry that some states, as backwater as they are in beliefs, will just make kids dumb. They already have kids walk out of classes if they believe it is against their religions. Imagine if they have the power to structure education how they want? Colleges will also suffer because some kids simply won't be on par with others depending on where they are from. It could lead us to a lot of problems and I'm not liking it.