Chain of Memories If Marluxia Won...

I think we are giving Sora TOO much credit. When did Sora ever figure out anything on his own?

If he did figure it out it would probably be after Sorawiped out Organization 13.

Then Sora would be expendable, as would Namine be.

 

Well, there was that time where he realized that Kairi had feelings for him when they finally met again in the Castle that Never Was.

And the time where he knew Riku was fighting on the wrong side in KH1.

And also when he knew he had to commit suicide by stabbing himself with a freakin' key to save the girl he liked.

Other than that...more will come...:dead:

NOW who's giving Sora too much credit? :huh: Sora wouldn't have been able to take on the remaining Org members by himself. Even if he had Marluxia and Larxene on his side, he STILL wouldn't have been able to take them out. It took the combined forces of Sora's friends to destroy even ONE member of the Organization. That goes for Riku as well. Riku wouldn't have defeated Lexaeus if Ansem hadn't taken over his body (in Re:CoM of course) and Zexion wasn't technically defeated by Riku. Axel and Repliku were the ones to take care of that. I already gave my take on who would be on whose side in this Organization civil war.

Kinda like how DiZ thought Namine was expendable, huh?

 

1) It took a war for him to figure that out? When anyone who played the game could tell in like 30 seconds.

2) Didnt Donald and Goofy tell him that? When Goofy saved him? Dude, he really is that dense. I mean, even when Riku punked him for the Keyblade, he was still trying to be his friend.

3) I dont know how he figured it out... My guess would be luck.

Ok, in the Scenario I outlined, it would Roxas, Sora, Marluxia, Larxene and Axel against Demyx, Luxord, Saix, Xaldin, and Xigbar. Xemnas is a no factor since he I'm sure Marluxia would kill him well he slept, because hes honorable like that.

So no, its not like Sora Marluxia and Larxene vs the world. If Axel did backstab Marluxia, like he did, then the plan was doomed to fail. But Marluxia was betting he wouldn't.

Also, if you look at Jiminey journal, it sais Marluxia was tring to unify the Neophytes against the Original Members. So if that plan worked, it would be a really stacked deck, Xigbar, Xaldin, Xemnas, vs Marluxia, Sora, Roxas, Larxene, Axel, Demyx, Luxord and Saix.

Now, I really doubt Saix would betray Xemnas, but the others could have went either way. Marluxia no doubt knew them better than we do, considering he worked with them, so he may have viewed them as curruptable.

Also, Marluxia is very intelligent, why would you think he would try something doomed to fail? He would only try something if he had a reasonable chance of success.

Didnt DiZ think she was expendable? After he was done with Roxas, you never here from her again until Namine rescues Kairi from the castle. Or at least tries.

I dont see your point... were you trying to be sarcastic?

 

Well, he had suspicions, but he had other things on his mind.

I'm talking about back in Monstro.

"Heart or no heart, at least he has a conscience. You might not hear it, but right now it's loud and clear. And it's telling me you're on the wrong side!"

But you admit that he figured that out on his own, right? Following his heart can do that. :p

I find it funny that this all goes down to what Axel does. He's pretty much the deciding vote.

Yeah, well, even Luxord wouldn't have taken that bet. :xp:

You mean the entry that says:

OR

I still don't see Roxas being on either side. If he's not going to work for Xemnas, there's no reason to work for Marluxia. Even if Axel WAS on Marluxia's side.

Like you said before, Demyx would've been down and out under a minute. (pun intended)

So the only other person that MIGHT have went over would be Luxord.

If Marluxia was intelligent, he wouldn't have bothered to do this whole taking over the Organization thing in the first place. He would've just did what the others were doing and recruit members for his own team. Without the necessary force to back up his claims, Marluxia was pretty much leaving everything to chance.

Sorta. DiZ and Marluxia were almost alike in the way they viewed Namine. She was just some memory witch that could manipulate Sora's "Chain of Memories." Other than that, she had no other use except to be a distraction.

And we DO hear from her even before the Rescue Kairi event. The Final Mix cutscene where she, Riku and Axel were talking.

BTW, are we really supposed to believe that Sora would've been eliminated once his usefulness had ended? Saix did that exact same thing and look what happened to him. :huh:

 

You probably would have had to fight marluxia multiple times in kingdom hearts 2, and the overall plot of kingdom hearts 2 would seem different.

 

Marlu would have wiped them out in about 10 seconds flat. They can't even stay alive against basic Heartless, let alone a Nobody lord.

 

Ok, a bit overstated, but you do have a good point...

Donald and Goofy were pretty useless without Sora...

 

Even Demyx could have wiped them out in 5 seconds.

I still go back the fact that Marluxia's plans would've failed anyway, in any points possible, it had too many flaws. Unless Nomura has it his way, and changed the story and let him succeed, only for him to obviously fall, be my guest, yet he's not going to be standing in the end.

 

Marluxia's plan was flawed, but not fatally flawed.

There were a couple of key hinges that didnt work out. But if Axel didnt double cross him, he would have overthrown the Organization.

Riku probably would have taken him out eventually, but that would have been Kingdom Hearts 2. It would have been a long and bitter battle.

 

Well we must return to the issue of CoM Sora vs. KH2 Sora. There's no way Sora would have been strong enough to stop Xemnas in the first place, he wasn't even united with Roxas. Xemnas would obliterate Sora, then go and obliterate Marluxia, and that would be that.

 

Hmm...but Xemnas was in the Chamber of Sleep.

The new vids talk about "All Xemnas does is sleep nowadays."

And its inplied that he finally wakes up after Re: CoM when it shows him finally sitting down on his throne.

Also, Marluxia is in the same leauge as Xemnas. We dont know if he is stronger, but he is around the same streath.

We know this because when it shows the seating arrangements, Marluxia is tied for the second highest chair, meaning he is the second most successful in his missions. Showing he is both smart, and strong.

He is tied with Xaldin, and second to Xemnas. I know what your saying, "He's still second to Xemnas" but also you need to consider, he is new to the Organization, wheras Xaldin and Xemnas have been in the Organization since it began. So they had a headstart on him.

Marluxia is not a pushover, he would not have been the last boss on CoM if he was.

 

If Marluxia was really that close in ability to the Lord of Naught, wouldn't he have taken him on alone? That is, unless he's just a cautious person. I'll tell you what I find funny though: People going on and on about "Axel would hav pwnt Marly lololol"

 

I think his intelligence made him so powerful... not just his physical streanth.

Thats why he went to get more assets, to ensure victory.

I dont think Axel could have totally taken him out 1 on 1. It would have been a good fight either way.

Also, maybe you forgot about how strong Xemnas really was? He wasnt as strong as most people think he was.

When you fight him in final form, he is using Kingdom Hearts to supercharge his power. Even when you fight him at Memories Sky Scraper he is using Kingdom Hearts to amplify his power.

I think the only time we see him fight using solely his own power, in his guest apperance in KH1 FM. Even then he is aweful tough, but Sora Donald and Goofy handle him... and thats when Sora is a year less experienced, and he hasnt merged with Roxas. I believe its after he because a heartless too.

So, Xemnas is not Omnipotent as Final Form Xemnas.

 

I can't believe I neglected a point I used to argue before. Xemnas was totally haxing. So maybe Sora did stand a chance, who knows?

 

The New Headquarters

You mean, "vid", because is only in one where they showed them talking about it (the other is where we get see Xemnas go to the chamber), and that's with Vexen and Zexion. In fact, I don't even get why Xemnas was "asleep" during CoM, when there really is no proof of that, as far as I've seen (Where does it say it? Where is it shown in dialogue? Is it in a interview or new information? I want to know). Moreover, the fact that Xigbar especifically states that he "talks with someone" when he is suppose to be alone, I don't know how he could do that sleeping -_-. It might be called the "Room Of Sleep", but who's to say he was actually in slumber? Where are these allegations coming from?

We barely know what the "Room Of Sleep" is, except that it has Aqua's armor, and he talks to it (hopefully, that could be explained, or I should perfectly say that Xemnas is bit on...a cuckoo stage. I mean, I thought talking to a heart shaped moon was weird enough....), so using this in argument is is easily debatable and doesn't stand on his own. You got this from Repliku, right? I want to talk to him about it and see what's that about...I've been meaning to as I kept reading his posts. Maybe if I understood where it came from...

First off, the seating arrangements have nothing to do with canon, just like Muti Player, is just a add on extra for fun in gameplay to show how many successful missions you have accomplished. The members you don't use for missions stay at the bottom. In truth, the chairs' heights are determined by how high the members sitting on it want it to be, although it can never be higher than Xemnas. Nomura said so himself:

And this is where they talk about the chairs in 358/2 Days, a result of Multi player:

Other than that, Marluxia is not in the same league as Xemnas, yes, he is strong, that he could be in charge of his own castle as his assignment, but not in the same league, or else he would've battled the Leader on his own, instead of going through with a plan and having to risk a lot for it. Who could say he wouldn't have confronted Xemnas alone without anybody interfering? Private battle? When Nomura was asked who did he think were the strongest members, he said Xemnas, Roxas, and Xaldin, respectively. I'll find that interview too, if you need it as well. He didn't say Marluxia in any of it. Despite the gameplay not showing Xemnas' true potential, the fact is, Xemnas is the most powerful, Xemnas is the most respected, or else, the Organization would've rebelled if their own leader didn't prove strong enough. It might not show when fighting him, but that's how is suppose to be.

Can't go against Nomura's words.

About Axel, as we could all see in KH2, he will not go into a battle where he knows he could be defeated or utterly a** wiped. He was running from Saïx for most of the game, because not only was he chasing him to receive his "punishment", Axel was perfectly aware of the fact that Saïx will obliterate him, to the point where we see him weak when helping Sora with the Nobodies, which was caused by the Luna Diviner himself (in the KH2 Novels, there's a scene, where Saïx and him meet, and Axel wakes up on Naminé's lap, having been knocked out xP. Riku was there too, saying that if it wasn't for Naminé, he would've been long gone, and the silver haired teen even straight up states to the redhead that he's not that strong, but that Saïx was "pretty strong", into which Axel asks if he fought him as he's conscious again). Of course, Axel is strong when he actually tries, as in the cutscene where the remaining members speak about his "death", they were kind of impressed. The point is, Axel knows when he can't defeat someone alone.

He didn't do this with Marluxia, so he musn't have think of him much. In fact, Axel even began the fight by summoning his chakrams, and Marluxia took him on the challenge, both pretty confident. They began, and while they deflected each other's attacks, you could see that, while Axel might've been more on the defensive, he could take him on, at least. The battle didn't last long enough for them to step it up and see what they can really do, but it helps when fans try to figure out where the ranking of power lies, even if Nomura just said himself the first three from what I wrote before. I do believe, however, that Axel wouldn't have ended up winning, but their strengths aren't that atrociously far apart, it seems.

Marluxia is smart, is strong, I'll give him that, and his presence is intimidating, as well as almost Godly, but placing him on the same height as Xemnas or Xaldin is pushing it, ICSP. I could see him as one of the strongest members, but not to that point of level.

 

I think I got it from Repliku... and took the Room of Sleep a bit too literal. I stand corrected.

But why would Xaldin allow him too look him in the eye. Xaldin looks down on everyone... unless Marluxia really was an awesome dude.

It may be because Marluxia was inteligent. I mean, why else would they put him in charge of the new headquarters.

Ok, whos to say hes not # 4 in the power scale, but tied for #2 overall. Xaldin does seem smart, but not mastermind status like Marluxia.

Also, was that question asked after CoM was released, because then, Marluxia would have been dead.

Also, Roxas is 1337 status.

Also, Xemnas is the most powerful, because he tells the others what to do, and will turn them into dusk if they disobey.

Good point, your best arguement thus far... but Axel was also probably banking on Sora backing him up halfway through the match. Wheras Marluxia had Namine as a wildcard to counter Axel's play. Also, Axel seemed to be weakened more from blocking Marluxias attack then the other way around.

Yeah, it still would have been a good fight.

I wouldnt mess with any of them.

But I am dissapointed that you fight Xemnas using Kingdom Hearts (or at least a heart shaped dounut called Kingdom Hearts) 1 on 1, and still punk him then he uses all the power it has, throws you into a void, and you and Riku still beat him.

Xemnas is not as god tier as he would like to think he is. Even if he is the strongest, its not by much, even with Kingdom Hearts' power.

 

Stand corrected on what? You haven't disproven that argument. I backed mine up with some canon evidence in the game, but I want to hear from Repliku first to give out where he got that from to see how it stands.

Okay, what does this have to do with the chairs, considering that's the post you replied to? o.O Xaldin and Marluxia, we haven't even seen them interact, so, mind explaining a few things there about "allowing him to look him in the eye"? There's also not enough canon character development in the game to say that Xaldin looks down on everyone either.

And I said along my post, yes, he was proven strong and responsible enough to be in charge of Castle Oblivion, which could also be reasons why he was chosen instead of being intelligent (why would you think the only reason they would choose him was "intelligence"?), and it's saying something considering he's mostly a newbie, but, I don't think he should be considered to be in the level of Xemnas, or even second after him. Anyway, while Marluxia looks to be smart, and is a good asset to have when fighting to think logically, we're not arguing "Who's Smartest" here.

Who's to say he is? The fact is, Nomura himself said that among the few strongest members, is Xemnas, Roxas, and Xaldin. Even if Marluxia is sixth or fifth, or even fourth, which I don't doubt, the matter is, Xemnas is still on top of him. What Nomura says is word.

I find it odd, because, even though Marluxia is giving the role of being the Castle's Lord in CoM, the director doesn't mention him at all in that list.

Being a mastermind, is simply a word to describe a person who plans and directs, for usually a cause, or rebellion, or evil means. I could be a mastermind, but that doesn't prove anything on strength, which is what we're talking about here. I don't see why all of a sudden, you're comparing him to Xaldin, who isn't even the point in this, other than the fact that Nomura mentioned him on the power scale. The reason I even placed that in the first place is to show that Xemnas, mentioned by Nomura, is considered to be amongst the strongest, along with Roxas and Xaldin.

You're also bringing no back up to prove that Xaldin isn't smarter than Marluxia, as well. Just because he planned to take over means he's above the rest concerning brains? Don't think so.

I think it was after Re: CoM, in the most recent interviews for the new games, but the fact that Marluxia's dead doesn't mean whatever position he had or strength he posessed changed, so this is moot to bring up.

Xemnas is the most powerful, he's the leader, so of course, he will tell others what to do. It doesn't matter if he turns them into Dusks, it still comes from his powers alone. You gave me amo here. If he could turn them into Dusks, then he can turn Marluxia into one as well. It just proves what type of strength Xemnas has to be able to accomplish this, and why you shouldn't cross him.

My best argument so far? Oh, okay. Axel, was actually surprised to see that Sora was behind him (Marluxia sensed him coming, which is why he summoned Naminé, and made it seem like Axel was going to harm her, and even told Sora so), I could even put the scene here, for you to see Axel's expression, and prove to you in canon (which I have been doing) that Axel wasn't expecting it, he almost seems annoyed. There was no Sora backing him up, especially when after, Axel went to battle Sora himself. Yeah, that's sure asking for help. And why would Marluxia use Naminé, let alone be behind her, when facing off a opponent? I could guess (keyword: guess) that Marluxia didn't want to deal with Axel at the moment, and needed time to think on the turn of events that happened with Axel's double crossing, or prepare himself, leaving Sora to take care of the redhead for him. I think he figured out that there was no other choice, but to fight. Larxene was gone. Naminé told the truth. It was over.

But in other views, Marluxia...well, hid behind Naminé, even Repliku pointed this out. That's not good conduct, it makes only people think he's a coward and used defenseless Naminé as a shield. That's what it looks like, despite whatever reasons he had in mind in doing this.

And Axel wasn't weakened. When he blocked the attack, he grunted because of the force, but after it was over, you could see him standing calmly and focused, his chakram in front of him, awaiting to continue. He wasn't panting. He wasn't hurt. He wasn't hunching his shoulders. He was ready to go at it again without any sign of "weakness", as you say. Hell, he looked fine (and no, I don't mean in the sexy way, though I'm not denying he is :D).

While Xemnas did use KH to power up (and in good reason, because he had three keyblade wielders on him, Sora, Riku, and Mickey, and that weapon is suppose to be powerful), I think that's what he planned to do in the first place when using it. Give the members their needed hearts (if at all), but used its power on himself, which might explain why he was so hellbent on getting his KH done.

Yet just to point out (this is not part of the debate), you shouldn't base Xemnas on being defeated in that way. That's the goal in the game. To defeat the last boss, and the hero wins, or else you'll never proceed to the next scene otherwise. So, of course, destroying Xemnas in the end, was in the package. Is simple gameplay.

For example, Sora got his a** handed twice to him, royally, by courtesy of Larxene, and the second kick was so fatal, that he should call himself lucky Donald went and healed him. Then you go into battle, and Larxene is beaten? When he couldn't even handle a kick from her before, which left him flat on the ground? And I'm suppose to believe he managed it with her added lightning, kunai, speed, and strength?

Simple. Larxene was meant to defeated. That's all there is to it. Pisses me off, but that's the way things are.

Actually, think about it. Sora defeated most of the Organization. He had Roxas in him as well by the beginning of KH2, when he wakes up. But it took him, and Riku's help, both, to defeat Xemnas in his Final, Kingdom charged, Form. And you can see when playing, that Sora and Riku had problems themselves. Xemnas was about to land another hit on Sora, perhaps a final one, when Riku blocked it, which ended up with him getting hurt (Sora had to help him up, help him walk, and when they reached the dark beach, he fell for a moment).

That says a lot. Might seem like a easy battle for those playing it for some, but it sure wasn't for the characters themselves.

 

ICSP bowed his head because he knew that he'd been beat... and layed that golden KH2 disk on the ground at *TwilightNights* feet...

Ok, I'm just saying that Marluxia is underated. He was awesome... not a pansy like everyone thinks he was. He could very well have won, if not for a couple mishaps, maily Axel doublecrossing and Sora being Sora.

PS: I still dont like Xemnas...

 

Oh...My...Goodness. ICSP actually lost an intellectual fight? :blink: And he ADMITS it?!

Kudos *TwilightNight* for the finishing move. And you put up a good fight ICSP. Congrats to everyone who participated in this thread. :)

Oh, and for the record, I still stand by the idea that Axel was the turning point. ;)

"Good night, everybody!" :noworries:

 

Thats sig quote worthy!

It was mailny the Nomura quote that did me in. Plus *TwilightNight* knows her stuff better than I do.

EDIT: THe way you reacted when I admit I lost reminded my of that scene from the Matrix (forget which one) when the guy chopped at Neo with a battle Axe... and he bled a drop from his hand.

And everyone was like OMG! HE IS HUMAN!