here's something to think about!

Like I said, at the end of the day people can, and will, believe whatever they want. See: flat earth society (and please don't take that as an offense; although I think both christianity and the flat doesn't mean I'm incapable of respecting different viewpoints).

I have to say that while I agree with a number of thing Styx is saying I wouldn't necessarily be holding the discussion in the same way. =/

 

Actually, it's Christians who for years killed people over saying God doesn't exist and for daring to be different. I think that Styx may need to check himself but so should you. Your words are very hostile too and you could learn some tolerance yourself.

Guys, if this area is going to continue to be a heated thing where people call each other names and put each other down, I will close it. Religion, or lack of religion, is a personal choice and that is all there is to it. It shouldn't be something where people, whether they believe or not, insult another member of this forums. A discussion certainly does not mean you call people names so please cut it out or I"m closing the thread. Usually, in here, people do much better than this. Let's get a grip.

 

You know what created god?
The same thing that created santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy.
People :D .

 

And I have the right to try and convince people to believe something else.
And I have the right to compare my "beliefs" with others.
And I have the right to question yours. Yay rights!

In other words, prayer is a placebo. You think it'll help, so you'll try harder. And if it doesn't, your disappointment will be all the bigger. And last but not least, asking someone else for helps almost always involves shedding a part of the responsibility of your task off yourself.

I'll go with a trend you started and give a corny example. Or better yet, I'll give you several.

Some dude (let's call him Richard) wants to be a top athlete. He is religious so he prays and goes to church. Richard goes to church once a week, secretly contacting God to make his dream a reality. On top of that, just to make sure the big man upstairs heard him, he prays every evening before he goes to sleep. Of course he trains too.
How long does a visit to church take? In my town it's about 45 minutes.
Seven short prayers a week, how long should that take? 10 minutes total?
That comes down to 55 minutes a week. That's a lot of laps he could have run, or workout exercises.
The example is silly but I wanted to demonstrate that time wasted praying often could be spent on more useful activities.
I will admit; the harder he trains, the more disappointed he will be if he still fails. But it's the same with praying. See below.

Example number two.
Claire's daughter is very sick. As a matter of fact, she's dying. Claire is religious too. After visiting hours she prays. Praying to God to help a dying daughter takes some time since Claire first has to suck up to him a bit and then has to explain all the fifty million reasons why her daughter should not go to heaven just yet ("she's always kind to other people, has her whole future ahead of herself" etc). In other words, praying demands quite an effort by Claire but she's more than willing to give it. But then the unthinkable happens...Claire's daughter dies! *sad piano music plays*
The disappointment and despair is big in any case, but I'd imagine it'd be even bigger if she spent more time praying.
Now don't get me wrong; there is probably nothing Claire could have done instead of praying in this case (unlike the previous example). However, I'd find it pretty reasonable that Claire is disappointed that her efforts didn't pay off. More disappointed than she already was. Poor, poor Claire.

Third example.
The horror continues! Tyler found his cheating wife in bed with another man and pumped both of them full of lead in a blind rage! Luckily, Tyler is a devoted Christian, immediately feels sorry for his actions and prays to God for forgiveness (sacrament of confession, whatever).
According to Christians, God is a nice guy so he forgives him.
Why? Because he prayed. Because he felt sorry. It's a bit late for that isn't it, Tyler dear? The cops still arrest him, the judge still sentences him and Tyler finds his prayers to be hollow words at least in this life.
But by praying, he finds comfort that he may be permitted into heaven in the long run anyway. Comfort that he arguably didn't deserve.

Or you do absolutely nothing and hope for that other person to come clean up your mess, which is what some Christians do as well. They have God watching over them and treat him like a shield that guarantees that "everything is gonna be all right, either in this life or the next". Which isn't the case.

Actually, I deliberately never brought that up because the past is the past. Recent generations of Christians show very little violent hostility, if any. So let's not stumble over what's happened way back when.

Killjoy. :p Now that I was having fun...

 

the bible sais he has always been. i was just conversing with my friends about this yesterday

 

You are right, Styx. Humanity in that regard has changed, though I'd debate that Evangelicals and affiliated groups to them are going backwards while others who are Christan and not Christian are moving forward to better things, figuring out violence is not the answer. it was meant to stop the name calling and foolish insulting going on, but it was counterproductive.

 

That's just the point, he won't. He doesn't want to make us love him because that means that wouldn't be real love. That is also the reason that he doesn't make it any more obvious that he is here. If he did then people would have to believe in him. And that's not free will.

 

People can still choose to not believe in things that obviously exist/occurred (see: people who do not believe in the Holocaust), you know.

 

Just because it may be obvious to most of the world doesn't mean that it is obvious to everyone. Hence why some still deny the Holocaust.

 

Pretend I used another example then; and actually that's kind of what I was saying. Even even if God made his existence more obvious, it doesn't mean that people would have to believe in him. Believing in something is always a choice, even if you don't choose to believe to the truth.

 

If guiding someone towards a desired path is tampering with free will, then we all violate against the free will principle. Persuasion should not be confused with force. As a matter of fact, guiding your people towards wisdom is a deed that can be attributed to love.

 

I'm honestly tired of the whether god exists debate and what you brought up there is a good question.I think that if and only if god did exist i'd say that like the universe he created,his existance would've been since infinite began itself.

 

Christians believe that god appeared and was somehow granted the power of being immortal. From that, I do not know anything else.

 

Thank you for that. And yes, I would like to apologize about what the people did back then and must make it absolutely clear that most of us are not like that.

Yes, but I never said that he didn't try to persuade us. I just said he wouldn't force us. You are right, there is a difference. So God is loving us by guiding us to a knowledge of what our eternal life will be.

 

Which brings me back to my previous question, albeit rephrased: why doesn't God persuade us atheists? If he exists, then why doesn't he guide those who think that he doesn't to the knowledge that he does?

 

Well...I think he does guide you. You are just so vehemently refusing it that you don't hear him, metaphorically speaking. I had a friend, really hardcore atheist. I invited her to church because we were eating pizza and watching a movie and at the end our amazing youth pastor did a five minute preachy-thing. Well she said it interested her and that she might wanna come back. So I brought her back another day and she decided to become a Christian. I'm not saying we will brain-wash you but just...keep your mind open.

(After all, if you had said that the world was round back in the 1600s you would have been deemed crazy. But the world is round. I'll let you interpret that how you will...)

 

Well I think that "God" is like a system, it's just perfect. For example: You don't know what to do when you face a problem, then you ask help to god, now you feel in company of a divine and powerful being and because of that you don't have fear anymore and you feel the security that you 'll be certain in anything that you do, 'cause "God" is helpin' ya.
So it's your call: believe or not.

 

I'll respond to your statements in reverse chronological order if you don't mind.

I'm glad you brought that up actually. I'll interpret it this way (plot twist ahead!).
Despite initial disbelief and protest against the idea of the planet being a sphere rather than a disk, the idea found its way to us anyway. The vast majority of the people are now convinced that the world is -approximately- round. If the truth doesn't find a way, then it'll make a way. And this example deals considerable damage to the foundations of the "open mind", effectively demonstrating its very pointlessness in many cases such as this one.
'Tis the power of facts: they're there to stay whether you like it or not.

Which is exactly why I won't care for any religion. God's existence can never be 100% proven (nor disproven; view other topic) while scientific hypotheses can be proven or refuted by facts most of the time.
As such, they are more reliable in general.
This brings us smoothly to your other point...

I have no use for a theory that cannot prove itself. Unless of course it can. In which case I wonder why that hasn't happened yet. Or did I miss something?
I'm not blind and deaf, I'm just harder to please. And science and facts, while not perfect, have done a much better at that than any religion has ever done. But you're always welcome to try. Let's dance! :D

 

I completely agree. You can hear Him, and He does guide you in everything you do. You just have to be willing to accept that, that's all. If you keep your mind open, then you'll be able to see things from a completely different perspective and maybe learn a few things. If not... well, I think we can see the result :\

And that's a pretty neat story about your friend :) Nope, most of us don't convince others by brainwashing. We can't force people to believe in something that they don't want to believe in. We can only tell others about God and if they believe us, great. If not, oh well. There's really not much point in worrying about it, since you can't do anything to change it.

 

Not a problem.

You are right, the truth will be revealed in due time. My time has already come, but there will come a day when the truth will be revealed to everyone. It might take the rapture and tribulation to open some people's eyes but they will be opened. It took a little while for most people to believe that the world was round but eventually people took to it. I think it will be like that for Christianity. Now most people believe that there is an all powerful deity that created everything.

Well you are right, I will never be able to convince you that God exists, because that would mean I was the one saving you, and that wouldn't be correct. Only God can convince you. I would urge you that if you really want your questions answered to go read The Case for Christ. If you like that there is one called The Case for Faith. The guy who wrote it actually set out to disprove God but ended up proving it. Also I've heard that reading the book of John is helpful if you want to feel something spiritual.(Just a suggestion, it didn't work for me.)