Kingdom Hearts II Hate Ansem or Like?

I could rip this arguement into sheds so quickly... but I'll try to stay on topic...

DiZ did destroy the hearts which were converted into data. The machine died, so did the hearts.

DiZ is dead. Keep in mind that its a Disney game. I mean, look at Org XIII's deaths. Fading into darkness? Not a traditional death either.

Also they could have easily killed him, but they spared him into the realm of darkness, he showed no appreciation for thier mercy. But rather, decided to kill them, consequences be damned! Even if it meant manipulating, torturing, kidnapping, and yes... even mass murder. That is evil my friend.

In addition to the same arguement as above. Roxas didn't deserve what happened to him. Two wrongs don't make a right... they might make a Wright, but thats a different debate all together.

 

It doesn't make what he did right, but it makes it more understandable and Roxas didn't have nearly as much happen to him as Ansem did. Ansem had a reason to be mad and upset. He was wrong but note that Riku did curb him at times and do his own thing and Ansem could have tried to stop him too more than he did before Riku took off. What he did to Roxas was not nearly on par with what Xemnas/Xehanort and the others did to him.

Also, yes, I believe Ansem/DiZ is pretty gone as he gave his life for what he did. He probably didn't feel after all the failures and hatred etc that there was anything left to do in his life. He is probably toast and not coming back.

However, the Org did not spare him. I'm sorry but they ran off and he tried to stop it and had to go to Darkness himself. They could not just endure Darkness either as Ansem/DiZ pointed out when he gave Riku the cloak. It could have consumed them if they didn't wear the cloaks. He also learned to hide and do things himself. They weren't merciful to him in any way so I don't see where you are coming up with that at all.

 

I don't really hate him, but I don't really like him.

You see, I think he's wise (lol, Ansem the Wise) and really knows what he's doing, but on the other hand...

what he did to Roxas. Even though I hate Roxas and wish he would die, you still gotta feel sorry for the emo kids some days...

 

I like the fact that Diz means "Darkness in Zero", though, I'm quite neutral to him, really. It didn't go to in depth for me to feel for him or anything.

From what we got with him in KH2, and the Ansem Reports, all he was really avengeful about was how they took his research and pride, as said by his words. As well as turning their back and exiling him. There's nothing mentioning about name tarnishing, or his world being destroyed (Really? Don't you mean change? Because when Ansem Heartless came along and so did Malificent, the world was renamed and looked different. That would be a more accurate case), or people getting "hurt" that what was bothering him on his thoughts. It was mostly his failure and his mistake on even starting his research of the heart that torn him. By the time Ansem ordered a stop on the studying, it was too late as Xehanort and the disciples were in too deep. He acknowledges it himself, and even says they lost themselves to darkness, in some form of obsession. Yet, he didn't to stop to think that maybe if they hadn't fallen to such levels, would they have done what they did.

Most of his actions through the whole series except at the end when he finally repents and atones, are fueled by this revenge, as well as his Nobody prejudice of them not deserving existence. Nothing more, nothing less. He did apologize, he had a heart to know well that what he did was wrong, but to ask the Org. (or rather, the first six), to also admit guilt when they can't feel such a thing, or when they rightfully believe that they're getting a heart wasn't a wrong doing, is a bit out there. Even if they did, in the words of Axel, "My heart wouldn't be in it, you know?" They would only say out of necessity rather than mean it. Memes or not, they can never feel the real agony, therefore, since emotions are what we mostly act on decision for and what drives us, they can't see what they are doing. Their train of mind is on the goal, and in restrospect, getting a heart is not that volitile. Coming from that, blaming Diz's exile on the word "Org." is kind of putting all 13 to blame. Is better to mention on disciples and Xehanort than just the Org.

What I really want to get at, though, is that I think people have a right to not like him for what he did to Roxas, or I see where they are coming from. Making it appear like Diz's sob story was more sympathy worthy won't work. That's not the point, is his actions. Roxas was troubled by thoughts of Sora and why he wields the power that he does, even go as far as searching for the answers, only for him to get attacked and taken to be put in a data, basically, fake life. With his memories wiped. Is like your living your life, only to find out suddenly you're not suppose to exist and it was all a lie. All the friends, all the town, all that you liked, was...nothing. Think about it. That would be a big blow. In the end, you have to go back and live to see a life in someone else's eyes as your fate (this is what Roxas was most defensive of, being called Sora and others saying that he had to go back to where he belonged, while he rightly believed he was himself and no one else, and will fight for that freedom. It was later he learned to accept it as it is). And all the way Diz did nothing but antagonize and taunt him, and once Naminé's use was done, he ordered Riku to kill her as well. Shallow reason for not looking in character? Yes. But what he did was screwed.

 

My point is how do people feel so sorry for the Org that boned themselves but not a guy who had good intentions that lost his world, his life, his name, etc and was exiled and screwed over? The Org were in no way more innocent than he was. Roxas, sure, he got screwed but did he have to go back to Sora any way? Yes. Would he have naturally when he left to research the 'dreams' he was having? Very likely. Sure, it would have been more harmonious, just as Namine's was with Kairi, because Namine figured it out, but all DiZ did was move something along faster to get Sora back whole because he figured he needed him. When Riku kind of squashed his plans, to include not getting rid of Namine, or letting her do more for the plan and taking off himself with relics from Roxas's life, well that messed up his plans any way. He realized it was folly.

He was emo, but at least he had real reasons to be. Having your whole identity stolen, yourself lost, your home lost and all those things taken like the people etc and being betrayed by your trusted apprentices who actually convinced you for a while to continue etc when you had debates about it even before ordering it to be stopped... I mean really...why do people feel more sorry for the people that betrayed him than him? In my mind I think the Org and DiZ were both owed some sympathy for their conditions of existence.

 

*Sigh*

Now your highjacking this into the "Was Sora Justified" thread.

There is a key difference. Organization XIII's goals may seem selfish, but there was no callateral damage.

DiZ's goals were very selfish, and there was massive collateral damage...

Org XIII mainly threatened Beast, and you could argue they threatened The Land of the Dragons. Sora was eventually considered the threat, so they decided to eliminate him much earlier.

However, DiZ threatened Roxas, Sora, Riku, Namine, the Org XIII neophytes, all the nobodies, would all be destroyed or damaged personally.


And worse yet, we do not truly know what the outcome of Org XIII's goal would have been. It may have been good. But DiZ outcome would have only been death to satisfy his thirst for vengence.

Something Riku and Mickey didn't want to help him on...

 

No, I'm not doing that at all ICSP. We are talking about Ansem/DiZ and I find it amusing you turn it into that. I am not going to say Ansem was justified. He wasn't. Pay attention to what I said there. He was NOT Justified!!! Because somehow you always ignore things or add things and I think you don't read things clear. The point though here is that he could be -understood-, just as some Org members could. Ansem's collateral damage was far less than what the Org's was. He just wanted revenge and to stop especially the top members of the Organization that had screwed him and his world over, and countless others. I will never say he was a great guy (accept in the beginning of course) but at least he admitted he was wrong on things, which the Org, other than Axel, did not.

He did not -just- do it to satisfy vengeance but to also stop a people that had done a crime that was horrible. Really, if you can justify Saix and how he tormented people, as well as Xaldin and try to make them out to be good guys, then why is Ansem screwed over to not be also an acceptable person who had problems? That's really kind of fanboyish to the Org and as much as I think the Org is cool, being so hard on Ansem because he was against the Org is just ironic. They -did- harm him and others greatly. He got stuck on revenge. It happens. He's one of the more feasible characters in the game for it, even though personally I didn't care for him that much. I did see his plight and feel some sympathy.

Also -no one- treated Namine well accept for Sora, Riku, Repliku, Kairi and Roxas (who had little choice any way). The Org never treated her well and had her locked in a Castle and mocked her, forcing her to do things, etc. Roxas wasn't treated that great in the Org either. he even makes the comment that no one will miss him when he leaves, even though Axel says he would have. Axel makes the comment he didn't like really anyone but Roxas in the Org as a friend. Demyx could also be considered to have been mistreated in the Org and forced to that lifeway. It's also clear that the neophytes, other than Saix who was Xemnas's lap dog, obviously weren't so happy with things, and the superior higher members weren't either with the neophytes. Riku is a big boy and could blow off DiZ's nature because he understood it and just didn't cater to it. He's adaptable and I doubt he'd say DiZ hurt him in any way because he didn't let himself get oppressed. If anything, Riku was also trying to save DiZ from self-destruction, even as he was helping Namine and trying to save things from Roxas's time. In the end, your hero Saix did worse to the neophytes and to the heroes than DiZ did by far. DiZ never had someone on their hands and knees begging willing to give ultimate surrender to save someone. Mostly what DiZ did was -words- and plots that never came to fruition because of others interceding and not letting him. We can't say that for the Org members, even against themselves.

Riku and Mickey didn't help DiZ but to deter him and in the end DiZ listened. We can't say that for the Organization that again, never once confided in Sora, Riku, Mickey or anyone what the heck they were totally doing and why, and what their plans were after. Namine didn't totally understand their plans. So, yes, we don't know the great scheme of the Org except for what we were told, but at the same time, Ansem was stopped for the most part and had a change of Heart, but he wasn't the 'bad guy' anymore than the Org was. If you can keep justifying the Org members like Saix, I think Ansem deserves a little more comprehension and acknowledgment too. Otherwise I seriously am just calling this off as fanboy attitude that the Org is holier than thou and nothing was wrong with it, even if they couldn't get along with each other even and everyone else opposing it and any Nobody was horribly wrong.

Lastly, you use the argument that the Org didn't have Hearts so doing their awful things was justifiable. They still had memes and natures that they could control, whether they 'desired' to or not. On the same note it can be argued that the Org had no Hearts so it's okay for them to act as they did...it is also acceptable to have a Heart that is torn, abused and wounded and would seek revenge for it as Ansem did. Having a Heart or not having a Heart obviously can be a weakness or strength, depending on the circumstances. How many people can say they have never been so wrapped up in a negative emotion or a few at once that it takes time to get over?

 

Ansem was a great character! =D

 

ok you got to remember...THAT WAS RIKU!!!!! And Ansem was ok. I can tell you one think...HE'S HOTT!!! (And with 2 t's ;), just kidding) And....i....kinds...*clear throat*...like *couch*what he did*couch*. Sorry, I have a small cold!

 

I liked Ansem as a character in KH1 because he was a good "bad guy". AKA, a Good Guy who fell from grace.

 

Hmm...I would say I only liked Ansem because of his battles, he was an amazing character and a good challenger.

 

i like what he wants to do, but poor roxas, couldnt he let roxas stay happy, and delete a school section.

 

If you mean the Heartless Ansem I will respond as follow. I hate that floating genie. *LOL* (the heartless who crossed his arms and resembled one in KH) because he was cruel and plagued Riku's with his thoughts when the darkness took over Riku. In other words he was a coward by hiding in another vessel's body.

If you mean Ansem the Wise or Diz, he's a hypocrite for he was looking into the darkness of the heart then he changed his mind and wanted to destroy what he startted and he blames Organization XIII for seeking answers of wanting to become complete even though his research began the whole process of understanding the heart and the darkness with it.

 

i hate ansem. his lust for darkness is overbaring.

 

Ansem = dislike (i dont quite hate him, tho.)
Xemnas/mansex = eww. hate.
xehnort (watevr.) = HATE FOR ETERNITY.

 

Ugh, he pissed me off! Seriously, who even has the right to meddle in someone else's life? Even if Roxas was a nobody, he had no right to do what he did. And if does what I think he's gonna do to Xion, I is gonna find some way to kick his ass. I mean, he even used Namine, then got rid of her for a while, until she could join with Kairi. It was stupid, and I'm glad

Spoiler

that he died. I only regret that it wasn't more painful.

 

I liked him cause after all he wanted to help Sora, and in some way he tried to help Roxas in being "whole".

 

I don't care for him at all. I pretty much ignored him to. He was only important for the storyline for the plot.

 

I liked him cause of his character and his voice.

 

Don't really care for him. Though he has more knowledge about the organization than the other characters, do so he may be valuable in that way. I would like to see some kind of flash back how a nobody is actually created.