Friendships and Relationships

@Makaze and LARiA;

When I was talking about relationships, I was referring to relationships in real life, not an online one. Obviously, online relationships rely more on emotional connection rather than physical, so your point is valid there. However, in a real life relationship, I disagree completely. Yes it seems shallow to date people you think are physically attractive or that would fit in your "click", but your points made me think you were trying to come across as personality is the only factor is chlosing a boyfriend/girlfriend. That is, plain and simple, outrageous. As Misty stated, you always judge someone by based on a first impression, physical appearance obviously being included. This may/may not cause you to befriend him/her which can lead into a relationship as I've stated. So therefore, I find your points invalid and incorrect.

EDIT; I'm on my iPod, which explains that stupid smile as the title of my post. It's hard to work this thing sometimes.

 

Please do not reply to us as one again. We both countered you, but it was for completely different reasons.

Believe me when I say that I take physicality into account, but not quite as much as personality. After all, one is born with their appearance and while they may take care of themselves, their appearance is not of their own making and so not worth loving so much as their personality. I would rather someone's appearance be pleasing so that I enjoy looking at the embodiment of the personality that I love. Nothing more than that.

Also note that I do not regard a relationship without physical contact as perfectly satisfactory. What I condemn about your post is seeing romance as a social matter; seeing your peers' standards as a concern. One could even argue that you would seek a mate simply to please your peers by what you said. I dislike this and would frown upon it heavily regardless of how luscious you find them.

Then what would you call shallow? Is shallow not defined as opposed to deep? I do not understand.

 

My apologizes.

In response, I must say that your argument would be invalid, at least for myself. Yes, it is true that I worry about what my peers think of me. But if I feel that I am truly in love with somebody, I could care less about what they think of me and my boyfriend. My point of stating that I work myself around what my peers think of me was not a very strong point in this argument. Since, as I stated, if I am truly in love, I don't care about what my peers, let alone anyone, has to say about it.

 

That seems rather contradictory to what you said before. How would you come to be truly in love without your peers, for instance?

Ah, well. I merely sought to express that I found it to be an annoying statement.

 

It is fine, I would've probably done the same thing.

And I'm sorry but I don't understand. Could you maybe rephrase it?

 

I wouldn't call it shallow because it's a typical human tendency. For something to be shallow, it would have to be comparatively more superficial than normal. And I just don't generally believe we should fault natural human behavior. But again, I digress.

Edit: I'm not particularly bothered by the point that Andrew (and others) made, though. The approval of our peers can be a driving force for us to not settle for something mediocre, or a way of confirming that which we are unstable about. I don't believe there is anything intrinsically wrong with dependency on others, so long as we are not controlled by it, which I don't think Andrew was suggesting he was.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and say I don't think there's any kind of 'line' between friendships and relationships, on account that they're not exactly the same thing. One is perfectly capable of having a friendship without romantic attraction, and having romantic attraction without a prior friendship.
An example of the first; among my closest friends is a girl who while I would say that she would be found attractive, I'm not attracted to her myself. And despite how much I enjoy her company and sense of humour, that continues to be the case even after a fairly long time of knowing one another.
An example of the second, much as I hate to discuss their existence; my mother and step-father. They started dating very soon after meeting, not knowing each other as friends at all. They've now been together happily for seventeen years, married for ten of them as of this year.
It's true that a romance built on friendship seems to be how things are always done in media, but the reality is that it does not have to be that way at all.

So to answer the specific questions;

I don't believe it begins, therefore it could be said that it doesn't end.

Technically speaking, no, as there will still be platonic attraction. There doesn't have to be romantic attraction at all though.

Yes I have. Knowing didn't make me feel any particular emotion, except perhaps contentment that I now knew.

 

This is the idea I was trying to go for. My wording may not have been the best in my descriptions, but Misty hit the nail right on the head. It's not that I'd do anything and everything to please my peers and to be accepted, rather work myself off their opinions of me. A good analogy is the Graphics Worm. Everyone had to incorporate a part of the previous person's piece so it would flow, while at the same time they added something unique to express themselves. It's kinda like me, I take what others think about me and shape myself around it while not losing the integrity of myself as a human being. So if that makes me shallow, I'm fine with that because it's who I am and how I feel.

 

Perhaps I have done so below.

Appealing to nature is one of my least favorite tendencies. I fault dogs for being dogs, and I will fault humans for the same. I do not feel that any pardon should be given for an inanimate object that works badly, so why should I give pardon to a person in the same place?

You did not answer my question. What is shallow if being like everyone else is not? What is shallow if not the opposite of deep, and vice versa?

I agree that your friends may help you find what you want, but the way that Andrew and Kites spoke of it, it was not that it controlled them, but that they knowingly made their love life into a matter of what society thought about them. Let me quote.

Does that sound like taking your friends' counsel into account, or does it sound like viewing your lover like a piece of clothing? "Why would he/she wear these clothes?" It seems very similar to me.

 

As I just recently said in my last post, my wording and way of going about it was wrong. I didn't mean to make it seem so extreme, like I do everything at account of my friends. My above post should describe how I really feel, in an accurate manner.

But to answer your question, yes; it is basically like having your lover be anything, from the clothing you wear to the way you've done your hair. Always at the judgement of others.

 

Yes, I believe it is shallow. Or, I certainly do not consider it deep, whatever it tries to be. If you cannot explain why it is deep, then it must the opposite of deep by process of elimination.

Here is a good question: what do you consider a peer? Do you have to befriend them, or are they just the people that happen to be around you in your daily life? Are your peers everyone at school, or just the people that you socialize with? Do you befriend people to please everyone else around you as well? I am not sure why it is not shallow to care about the people who happen to be around you rather than becoming independent of them.

That was the impression I got, and it is shallow to me. Once again, if you cannot explain to me why it might be considered deep, then it is shallow by default.

 

You're making shallow and deep seem like two ends of a swimming pool (no pun intended), like there's only the extremes. What about where they meet, what about (from that point) that they branch off and then become the extremes you are describing. The vibe I got from your post is that if you're not deep, then you must be shallow. This may be true, but not to the extent you made it seem like. You could only be judged as 'a little deep' (forgive my wording), and as you said, the opposite would be 'a little shallow', not extremely deep and extremely shallow.

I consider a peer someone whose opinion I care for, most of them very close friends. For example, if my friend told me that my shirt and shorts didn't match correctly (style wise), I might take their opinion into consideration and find something that matches. It's not like I let everyone I meet affect the way I'm going to act. Using the same example as above, if some random person walking in the halls approached me and said the same thing, I would brush it off because their opinion I may not trust (since I do not know them). So no, peers are not everyone in my school.

And to answer your final question, no. I'm not going to befriend a random person because my friend suggests it. Yes, if me and this person got to hang out, talk, and learn more about one another, then I could start to grow close to them. But if my friend came up to me with one of his/her friends and said, "Hi, I want you two to be best friends right now!", I obviously wouldn't befriend him/her since I haven't gotten to know him/her.

 

i dont feel like going back to look for quotes in this conversation but i think makaze was taking what i said the wrong way. i think my standards are really high personality and looks wise, and there's nothing wrong with that. and honestly, if i have good friends (which i do), they can be almost like advisers in my decision. it's just what girls do when they swoon over guys. "oh you think he's cute?" "girl omg yes go for it." it's just how things go. there's nothing wrong with looking for someone who is attractive to you, as long as it's not the only thing you look for. maybe when you're younger your peers influence you more, but especially now that i am in college, i'm not even in a clique anymore because no one from your high school is really in your college, except for a select few amount of people. but let me give you an example, my friend named shannon has this tendency to pick out guys who are not very attractive (I'm saying this from my point of view, i never said this to her and she later admits this on her own) and instead tries to base her relationships off of their personality, while that sounds noble, eventually after you get used to the person if you are not physically attracted to the person it will never work. it isn't shallow if looks influence your decision. and like misty said, you can try to be above it all, but in the end human nature is to pick out someone who fills your standards. animals do it too. why do you think they puff out their chests and have all different shades of colors in order to mate? so that the female can pick a healthy counterpart to reproduce with. of course animals are a little different because humans have more emotional range, but it's the same idea.

 

That is true, but I so hate to do things by halves. Someone is a friend to me until I decide to love them. It is not quite so gradual as others make it out to be for me. When I set out to love someone, it is not even slightly shallow. I throw myself into it with all of my heart, so to speak, and damn everyone else if they dislike it. While it takes a long time to convince me that it is worth the trouble, I do not get attached slowly or 'naturally'. That is why I have trouble respecting what you are speaking of.

However, what about the other way around? What if your friends told you not to become good friends with someone, and you did not know them yet? Would you heed their advice? I suppose it depends on how much you trust them, but again I consider that different from what you suggested. A friend may counsel you that becoming friends with someone else is unwise, but this is not the same as you avoiding them simply because your other friends are not on good terms with them. I am more concerned about you rejecting someone because of your peers than accepting someone because of them. Does it go both ways?

 

So you just throw yourself into a relationship willy nilly? Doesn't that sound dangerous, like you could be emotionally hurt in the process since you thrust yourself onto them?

Well, it would depend on the circumstances. Like Misty and Kites have said, you always judge somebody no matter how hard you try not to. If the person looked like a dangerous punk, then I would heed my friend's advice and not be friends with him/her (I do acknowledge that this is to be considered shallow). But however, if that person made a good impression on me (regardless of their appearance), I would not listen to my friend's advice and attempt the become friends with him/her. Whether or not my friend was or was not right depends on how the other person acts, so I'm not going to go into 'what if' scenarios.

Yes it does go both ways, but not necessarily all the time. It varies from person to person, depending on how strong they trust this friend and his/her opinion. Usually, I would not let someone, even if they are a close friend, stop me from befriending another person. I might take an extra precaution from their advice, but I would attempt to become friends with the person of interest. You see, it all depends on attitude when choosing friends for me. If you don't make a good impression on me, I'm not going to befriend you until you show me otherwise.

 

Indeed it would. It seems you understand why one must be very careful about letting themselves love someone.

I am a little different, but you sound more reasonable the more you elaborate on your position. I am different in that I do not shun people unless they make an extremely bad impression on me. They are more likely to leave me than I am to push them away. Any given person may rise to become a friend of mine at any point in time if they change to meet my standards. I am not likely to change to meet theirs.

I have a habit of playing double agent in a number of cliques as long as I do not hate any of them. First impressions are important, but it is always the strongest impression that stays with me rather than the first one, unless of course the first one was the strongest they gave me. I find strengths and faults in almost everyone I meet, and I am able to befriend two people who hate each other due to bad first impressions because I am not limited by them. I have played the peacemaker for such friends several times in the past.

I suppose you could definitely say that I am an exception and that I do not base my preferences on what my friends like. Instead, if a friend likes things that are similar to my tastes, then I will take their opinion as a good recommendation until further notice. Above all, however, I feel that one must judge others for themselves if they wish to get their measure, regardless of how much they trust or care for their friends' opinions.

 

You say that you judge others for yourself, regardless of your friend's advice. I say that it does matter in certain circumstances. Hm...

You know, I believe that Misty was correct. She said that everyone thinks and moves at a different pace when it comes to friendships and relationships, and that has been clearly demonstrated here. It just gets me thinking, you know?

But nonetheless, I do see the point you were trying to make. Basically what I gathered is that everyone is different, as Misty stated, in the way they think about relationships/friendships.

So KHV, I thank you in my little exploration experiment.

 

/coming to the party late

There are many types of relationships, and friendship is an extension of relationship, by definition. A friendship is a relationship with a person to whom you share a few mutual interests with, enjoy their company, but it doesn't flow into the romantic area of the word 'relationship'.

To answer that first question, a lot of people have a clear and define line between romance and friendship, they are simply friends, and both of them are content with it. Then for others, the line is a little blurry, unsure of how solid to be - they're friends, for sure, but maybe they share so much in common that they each want more from each other, or perhaps it's one-sided, or both are to shy to admit their feelings. Then there's the line-that-is-so-blurred-it-may-as-well-not-be-there type. For most, this is the most frustrating, confusing, emotion-twisting thing about friendships. They want to be together, everyone thinks they should be together, why the hell aren't they together? Friendship can either be a fragile thing or a powerful thing. The wrong words can break friends, ruin relations, other words can turn it into something more.

I have had two very close friends - one of them, I grew up with, and the other I had become best friends with in middle school. With the one I grew up with, Things were . . . not hard, but we, even as children, were in this gray area between the black of relationship and the white of friendship. It wasn't complicated, per say, but we were very close and became attracted to one and other. My other friend, from middle school was purely just that, a friend, a best friend, I hadn't been as close to her as I had been to my childhood friend, but she knew nearly everything about me and I knew I could always go to her if I needed someone. I believe it is both possible and impossible to not become attracted to a friend, male or female, that you're particularly close to.

I've had a few friends that I was attracted to, in both physical and mental ways. But the childhood best friend would be my main story. A lot of things happened, and let's just say she was there.

Love is not a business, it doesn't have a owner, a tamer, it has no . . . solidity. Love can be just as delicate as a flower or just as strong as steel, hard as diamonds, soft as a baby's hands. It can make people more caring and more cruel than they have ever been in their life, it can change a person, bend them, flip them, break them. It is a storm on a cold night, a walk in the park during springtime.

Most humans are just that, humans, and will judge a person based on their appearances - perhaps you're walking outside, you pass many of them, you see people who are appealing to you eyes and people who you wouldn't look at ever again - a first impression takes place within the first ten seconds of looking at someone. For all you know, you just passed the person who was made for you, there's someone for everyone, but you didn't even pay a second thought to them because you were too busy judging them by their appearance, already deciding their personality based on their looks.

Society also influences relationships, this could be your family, your friends, your co-workers, they can influence, even change completely who you choose to be with, solely because you would like to please them, and by changing, you could lose true, pure happiness, because you're worried about what others thing.

Love doesn't judge, love doesn't care. Love is love, no one will change it, people will change away from it, they will change to it, they'll change around it. Win some, lose some. Perhaps you don't only love once, but why waste that first time worrying about what other people think?

Let me try . . . Say someone makes you happy, makes you happier than anyone else. No one has made you so happy. The thing about it is, this person isn't exactly . . . physically ideal. You talk about this person all of the time, your family sees that you're happy, but they haven't seen the person yet. You decide to bring them along, as a friend, to a family function, or perhaps a social function. You parents, or your friends talk to this person, they like them too, but wait - - - a few of your friends tell you that you shouldn't get close to this person, they look . . . not right, something about them. Not right? you think, what does that mean? It means your friends don't know the person as well as you do, and they basically deciding to call the person up as socially unacceptable to be with.

What do you think of that? This person that makes you happy . . . not accepted by family and friends.

I'll tell you what I think. I would cut myself from them. Love doesn't come in shapes or forms, it isn't something you can mold, create, it is there, just in different . . . levels. Weak, being friendship, strong, being love, head-over-heels-holy-cracker-jacks-just-let-me-love-you love. I wouldn't let myself lose a chance at happiness, what could be, just because mommy and daddy or Sally and Jill and Dylan think the person who makes you happiest isn't 'socially acceptable' to be with. You judge that for yourself.

Move past the physical looks, quickly, sure someone can be goddamn-let-me-just-fuck-you-all-night sexy, but their personality can be ****. And then there's vise-versa. This silliness of physicality is . . . well, silly, and shouldn't be lingered on so long that you lose sight of who a person really is.​