Evolution vs Religion

This is getting rather annoying. Just get your point across without making the artard remarks. My point was that the bible isn't meant to be taken literally in which every single word becomes fact-- it's open to interpretation like any other religion or faith. The person is god knows (I pun like Jesus) how young and automatically assumes that the answer to every single questions resides in a book and that nothing else could ever be possible. All I was getting at was that there's no point in debating with those that can't think critically for the life of them.

The stance of that post was based on the fact that thousands of years ago the Egyptians thought they were right in believing that they arose from the tears of Atum, and years later the Greeks thought that they were right when they believed that Gaia and Uranus spawned the universe from chaos. And now others say that those of the past were all wrong and claim that they hold the ultimate answer: God did it all. It's just an ugly pattern in my opinion, and when you looks at the history in each one all you get is the transformation of one faith into another.

 

Where's the fun in making a point if I can't make stupid remarks at the same time? I don't really take this seriously, considering exactly what it is I'm sure you could understand. Also, I agree with what you're saying about not wanting to debate with those that don't really think for themselves, I was just having some fun with you. =)

Can you disprove the existence of some sort of higher being that could be comparable to some sort of God? Could you disprove that evolution was actually simply willed by such a being, and can't be justified using means such as ours because we don't currently have the understanding in order to truly comprehend such a power?

Again, I'd like to get the point across that I actually do believe in evolution, and that it's not the will of some supreme being. I'm pretty much on your side in this debate, but the evolution side has been slaughtering the religion side to the point that it's become somewhat boring.

Peace-and-War, I go to a Catholic school, and they teach both science and religion. They talk about how God could have possibly willed evolution, but they teach evolution pretty much like it's fact. Thus bringing up something else, evolution is but yet a theory, and thus has not been proven for sure. Given the recent advances in modern science, it's quite possible that a lot of what is currently "known" about evolution may be disproven in the time to come. It's highly unlikely, but it's possible. XP

Finally, again speaking to Peace-and-War, science and religion aren't really the same thing, because religion is more based on faith and a belief system. Science is based on what can be proven physically. There's a big difference. If you don't believe me, look at the definition for both. I'd provide a link but I'm lazy as hell.

 

I would say revolution because it IS prooven and makes sense but I am religious.

 

I think religion is more probable than evelution. I just can't grasp the concept of the monkeys-to-humans thing..............But that's just me and my religion!

 

No, it's not. Why do you think it's called the THEORY of evolution?

That statement kinda hurt pretty much every argument for the side of those opposing evolution. You pretty much discredited yourself as well.

 

So is Gravity

http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

 

Right there.

 

Evolution all the way. Sure there are some parts that need worked out but that's what research is about. In the end, at least it can be researched and expanded upon and has a basis. I see none of the same for Creationism at all. Also, most creationists don't even comprehend what evolution is about and have some weird theories they say that are not even found in the theories of evolution so that they can win their argument. It helps to study something first before calling it faulty.

 

Way to try to relate two posts that had absolutely little to do with each other. Thanks for just taking a slab of that second quote there.

I said 'proven' in context to some scientific experimentation, not the Big bang Theory specifically. Surely you *did* read both posts in their entirety and paid proper homage to your ability to read, rather than just scan posts for words that would 'fit together nicely'.

I'll give you a cookie for effort, though.

 

I am on the religious side but evolution sounds more realistic. Thats what I meant.

 

Yes, I would have to agree with Tasogarehime on that point. Saying evolution hasn't been proven and is 'just a theory' is like saying gravity is 'just a theory'. Yet what goes up must come down, as anyone who tosses a baseball up in the air notices. Similarly, there are 3.8 billion years worth of fossil evidence that support this theory in rocks all over the world, and only 6,000 or so years of evidence created by humans and written on decaying scrolls of paper and cloth that God created them. And that's a generous estimate, given that about half of that is someone saying 'Adam beget Cain and Abel' and so forth.
Compare that to perfectly preserved 'pictures' of creatures left by their decaying bodies in mud, covered over by more mud, and sealed without oxygen to support bacteria that would destroy the corpses. It's like taking food and vacuum sealing it in layers and layers of impermeable plastic, then burying it in your freezer under a bunch of new food. Sure, it'll get squished, maybe a little distorted, but you dig that sucker out after years and you'll still be able to figure out it was once barbecue ribs. This sort of preservation is a lot more reliable to me than someone writing in a book, and then saying 'Well actually I didn't write it, God did'.
If anything should be considered an 'unproven theory' it's the idea that God created the world in 6 days, but made it look like he did it in 4.6 billion years.

 

"Day" Was translated wrong. It meant something else that meant just a time period. Could be a year, or a thousand years, or even an hour. We don't know.

THe truth is, there is more proof of God.
I Have not seen any of these evolution pictures. Hmm. I haven't seen a fossil.
But, I have seen God's work. I personally give my testimony that it is true.
Whose testimony do you have of evolution?
"Um, I testify that this monkey believes evolution is true."
I think it's insulting to nature. That it just accidently all happened. Bing bang, blah blah. Nature created by a hand of divine nature is amazing.
Also, we are the proof of God. If we were all made by evolution, we wouldn't progress inside. I believe in REVOLUTION! The fact of us fighting for our rights, the fact of us creating new things, discovering!
Have you noticed that over all this time, we have progressed? But, monkeys and all other creatures haven't?
And, have you noticed that after the American Revolution, when religeon became free, we progressed the fastest we have ever progressed?

And, while I'm on the subject of the Revolution, God has been here all along.
I'm sorry, George Washington was a great General, but he was nothing towards the british Navy: THe greatest navy in the world. And The british had the second best Army in the world, tied with the french for 1st place.
Yet, we beat them? How halarious is that?
George Washington was a praying man. God was with him the whole time.
If you know real history, you notice that george "Accidently" Gets through tight spots with no visual help.
When he was younger, he got shot at, and when he got out, he found that he was not scratched, but there were bullet wholes in his jacket.
I mean, "Well, they had a bad shot". Holy crud! Someone was watching out for him, and it wasn't evolution!
And more and more experiences!

Remember the Great Depression? The stock markets suddenly crashed, and the dust bowel came in? And the infestation of every kind.
Have you noticed that right before the depression, America was a horrible country? There was the start of Gangs, speak easies, flappers, people were rich, and they had everything. We were known as the drunk, rich country. And then, depression came in as if God was punishing them, and they all suddenly started going to church.
Not long after, World War II came in, and the children of the depression were five times stronger than they would've been if it had been the "good times". So, the soilders believed in God, and they had faith in him, and they won the war.
Fishy.

I could go on for HOURS! God is too obvious!

And, also I hate that we treat scientists as Prophets, sorry.
And we treat science books as bibles. Confusing.

Evolution is just, I'm sorry, stupid. We believe this guy that thought up that we might've been another creature before, and then switched into another species! Umm, that sounds a little like harry potter to me. I love Harry Potter, but it's not real.

 

First of all gravity is a fact because it's been wittnessed, like when you drop a apple you know its gravity pulling it down. Evolution cannot be wittnesed, and has no proof making it a theory.
Also God said he made the world in six days and rested on the seventh day, thus setting up a week.

 

This statement in itself destroys the integrity of your entire post. You can't prove God exists.

The End.

This is by far one of the oldest (and has long since been answered) arguments against evolution. Please do your research. And if you refuse to do such 'secular' work such as research because you're satisfied with 'God made everything', then there lies the foundation of your entire argument on this matter.

Yeah, it's called luck.

So WWII was won because they believed in God? And this has nothing to do with military strategy or ingenious warfare? And once again, simply luck?

Well, I'm sorry, but *none* of these proves God exists. I can't believe you bring such examples into the defense of God being the creator of everything, and have the right mind to call Evolutionary theory stupid afterwards.

 

What God? The only way to prove YOUR God is to prove the divinity of Jesus Christ, which is impossible.

Every powerful historical figure claims to do "God's work." Adolf Hitler, for instance. How's to say that "God" isn't Allah, Yahweh or the FSM? On the question: Every respectable scientist in most fields.

Big bang=/=Evolution. Abiogenisis=/=Evolution. Evolution states that all life originated from a more primitive form and worked it's way up. It says NOTHING about how the universe or life was made.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Why assume that this "hand" was YOUR God?

Progrees inside? What do you mean? And, yes, I believe in Revolution as well. And because of this "revolution," we have evolution.

They have progressed, just in different paths.

It had nothing to do with religion. Even if it did, it wouldn't be because of religious freedom. Everyone was Christian by default, so freedom wouldn't change technology.

Oddly, most of the people in the Revolution were Diests, not Christians. Besides, that's exactly the same logic that the Greeks used: We won against a super powerfu army! It must be divine interference!

Happens all the time in history. It's not very new, and it it's been around BEFORE Christianity.

What about the other million "good Christians" who pray and die horrible deaths?

It was the war's fault.

God is NOT obvious. If God was able to be proven, faith would be meaningless, therefore he would NOT let himself be proven.

Read this. You obviously have NO idea how evolution works.

Then I will make a simple text version of part of the geological timescale:

Humans
Humans + Neanderthal
Erectus
Ergaster
Habilis
Australopithecus
Early Apes

Tell me why each one is before the other in order of intelligence. Also, the distribution is perfect for concluding that we came from them.

Evolution is a theory in the sense that atoms are a theory (ever heard of the atomic THEORY?).

There is a mountain of evidence for evolution. First of all, let me explain natural selection, the mechanism that drives it.

Let's say we have an animal, An. Two Ans mate and create 4 babies (An1, An2, An3, An4). All but An1 and An2 have genetic mutations. An3's mutaion is stronger muscles to move faster and escape predators. An4's is that it's weaker, and therefore is in more danger. An1 is killed by a predator before it can reproduce. An2 survives out of chance, and gives birth, therefore gives its genes to its offspring. An3 escapes predators easily and reproduces. It's offspring has the same genes, and therefore survive. An4 dies quickly, so it's genes were not benificial, unlike An3.

Now, let's fast foward a few hundred generations. The descendants of An3 have flourished and become stronger than the original An. An2's descendants have dwindled are in danger of extinction. They die out. Now, only An3 has survived and has now became much more different than its original blueprint. After awhile, it strays farther away from the blueprint because of its increasing strength, and has now become a new animal.

If you have trouble understanding, please tell me.

As for the big bang, think of it this way: Let there be light=Let there be a gigantic explosion of all matter.

 

Wow, Mirai, I second every thing you just said. I'm all for evolution, and an atheist through and through. Like what everyone else said before me, evolution can be scientifically proven and God can't be. I'm all for the real crap. >=P

 

It can mean whatever you want it to mean at this point. The point is that Christians attempt to say the earth is 6000 years old and there are cultures that had moved past slash and burn farming techniques over 10,000 years ago and had set up civilizations. Whether a day means a 'year' or a 'century' or a thousand years, humanity predates it.

This would be because you do not look. You can go to any museum and see fossils. You can take an archaeological class or go to a university possibly and ask to see some of the fossils collected. You also have not seen much of the science channel which displays theories of evolution, information on dinosaurs and many other things that are not real to fanatics. Thankfully, not all Christians are willing to close themselves off from the real world and do study science too.

Why is your word, your single word as a testimony more important than many other peoples? You can say all you want, but the truth comes down to show some evidence. That is what Science is about...showing evidence and making progress.
There are skeletal remains of beings in the earth from several hundred thousand years ago to several hundred millions of years ago dealing with all sorts of creatures. The preservation of some remains for human ancestry isn't the greatest but it is there and I still see nothing that says the Old Testament, New Testament, or any books of the monotheistic deity are written by God himself. If God does exist, he gave us this fossil evidence to find the real truth. If he doesn't exist and it's just a figment of a bunch of people's minds who ripped off from the Egyptian pantheon and calendar...those fossil remains are still there. How is it an insult to nature to want to learn more of it, preserve it and study it? I think it is a sign of the ultimate respect of nature and all life to examine who we are and animals are and what our world is. If knowledge is insulting nature, I think we are doomed because ignorance of it has made the world the crappy place it is today.

No one can say if the Big Bang happened by accident or if it happened by some divine presence. That is not science. People can have theories and add what they want but in the end, it is not a law simply because no one can answer what initiated it for certain. Science is awesome for that reason. It doesn't try to make things Laws without solid undeniable proof. Show me a religion that does that.

If you believe in 'revolution' it makes no sense that you do not believe in evolution. Evolution is change whether positive or negative. How can you believe that you progress in any way without being in evolution? Makes no sense. Just so you know, we still evolve today. Some humans are now born without wisdom teeth because they aren't needed anymore and we aren't chewing on raw vegetation. Some people are born without appendices because we aren't eating raw meat.

Monkeys, and I take it you mean apes, have evolved. Every living creature on this world has evolved and there is proof yet again in the fossil records. Of course if you aren't willing to study about this, you can continue to say 'I don't see it'. Little kids say that too when they don't want to learn and cover their eyes. Evolution is not just about humans, but all indigenous life.

The American Revolution was fought to free Americans from the chains of another country. Religion was a factor, but freedom of religion means that you are free to follow a religion without persecution, and it also means you are free to not have to follow any religion at all. Note, not all people were Christian and suddenly earned their rights to express their beliefs too. So, God wanted that?

George Washington was a strategist and had many others working with him that were brilliant. He also had a lot of luck. War is about luck and strategy and measuring up your opponents.

On this same note, if God is so great and watches out for people, explain all the Christians that die just like everyone else. Are you going to say then that it was their time go because God said so? Or that they didn't believe enough? If there is a force out there that is God, it is a very misinterpreted being because humans wrote the books, not that entity.

The Great Depression happened because of the war. This aided Adolf Hitler, Stalin and others into higher bids for power. That's a pretty relentless God if you want to pin it on him. So many views on God and no one knows. Is he merciful, mean, cruel, unforgiving, or loving? When Christians figure that out, we'll all be grateful. Also, what does God care about the stock market for and how do you know?

Christians often try to say Adolf Hitler's people were not Christian. Yet Germany was a very Christian country, Adolf was raised Catholic and he knew how to use the religion. Many highly honored decorations on the soldiers' uniforms were Christian and this religion was part of the unifying factor in Germany. Whether Adolf remained a Catholic or not through his reign is debatable, but it is very apparent that Germany was under strong religious guide and Hitler makes references to God enough times in "Mein Kampf". There were Christians on both sides of that war. It is just as obvious as there were also people that were not Christians on either side of that war. Throughout history, soldiers are often made fanatical by the use of religion and this was done long before Christianity existed. Anything may be used to rally the support and strength of soldiers if they choose to believe.

I disagree. We treat science as a method of discovering the truth of what happened with critical eyes. Theories are debated upon, progress happens, and things can be torn down once a theory is disproved, and new paths begin. In religion, if people do that they are called 'heretics' because they are bending the religion to their whim but show me in history where this has not happened. Science books aren't treated as bibles. In science you are told to 'think' and rationalize and if you dispute something, come up with viable proof to back your claim and it gets analyzed by others. In religion you are told 'what to think'. Seems to be a big difference to me and shouldn't be so confusing.

Science has not 'one guy' but many people from laymen to professionals in the fields examining and going over things. There was no 'switching' to another species. It is evolution so there is a line of descent. It is the growth and change of a species. Harry Potter is a book by a novelist that is declared fantasy outright. Science has physical, tangible proofs or ideals. What cannot be proven, at least we can see, taste, touch, feel and hear, whether with instruments or not. Science will continue to expand because we cannot explain all phenomena. Science does not even have to be used to 'disprove' God. It does, however, disprove many notions of the books written by men. If there is a great mover out there, science does not know and so it does not say. There are Christians out there who believe in the theory of evolution.

Now, prove that Creationism exists beyond the words in the Bible? You have one book. Science has fossil data, carbon dating, geological earth layers that reveal even past strikes from meteorites on the earth's surface, etc.

 

JedininjaZC, gravity is a fact because it has been witnessed. Anyone can observe this phenomenon by themselves without help from their priest, shaman, or pastor. All they have to do is toss a baseball up in the air and watch it fall.
Conversely, not everyone can see, hear, taste, touch, or smell 'God'. His phone number isn't listed in my telephone book. I have never seen his picture in the paper, nor shaken his hand. He has never kissed my lips so I knew what his breath tasted like. No, the general populace encounters 'God' by going to church, hearing a sermon, reading the words of the Bible, holding the beads of a rosary in their fingers, tasting the communion wine, breathing in the scent of candles and incense. We're asked to 'have faith' that these things all represent 'God' and have all kinds of instructions on how to 'see God in everyday life'.
I just do not have this 'faith', and if it makes me a sinner, so be it. At least I will be sinning against a God who hides his face and cloaks his actions in inscrutable parables and tells stories through men who have an interest in consolidating their power over their neighbors by appearing as a 'mouthpiece of God'.

People telling me they are a witness of 'God' and insisting that I believe their testimony without any proof whatsoever that they are even a moral being that possesses the faith they are preaching does not work for me. I certainly don't believe the used car salesman on television when he tells me to trust him with my hard-earned money just on 'faith'. I doubt anyone else would either if they had any sense. They would want to see some proof that what he's selling actually is worth the price they're paying.
In this case, the 'price' you pay with 'God' is your eternal soul, right? What if your faith is wrong, and the 'true God' is actually Vishnu, or Allah? You're screwed.
So no, I'd rather just explore the incredibly beautiful world around me, with all its life, beauty, and diversity. I can appreciate its beauty the more so when I'm not blinding myself to the hideous parts as well. And by far, the most hideous thing I've yet beheld is within human nature itself. This tendency to blind oneself to the facts, such as that millions of Jews were killed in the Holocaust, yet many were faithful believers in 'God'.
Which brings me to RayeofSunshine's response to my earlier post. My first reaction was, what does George Washington and the American Revolution have to do with this discussion? But then I realized that people are taught all kinds of myths about the 'founding fathers' of America in our schools, and that the use of God's name in reference to the Revolutionary War is nothing new under the Sun. So there is little use in being shocked in how people toss phrases like 'freedom of religion' around and yet will be more than eager to send teenagers to go kill in a foreign land, not because they are murderers, but because they support people who are murderers because they have put their faith in a 'God' of a different name. This is no different than when Spain drove out the last of the Moors in the days of the Inquisition.
Whether or not George Washington was a religious man is open for debate. I have heard from many reliable sources that he actually was a man who did not believe in a 'God' that intervened in human affairs. So tales of him kneeling in the snow, praying to 'God' for victory against the British are concocted by Christian historians who are committed to legitimizing American independence from Great Britain as some sort of divine judgment on an evil empire.
Now if 'God' and the Angel of Death had descended on the British in full view of thousands of witnesses and slain our enemies on videotape, I might give this idea some consideration. But until we catch Jesus returning for the Rapture live on the eleven o'clock news, I'm going to be very skeptical of anything like Judgment Day ever happening.
Therefore, denying the facts of evolution because the idea is 'stupid' and 'sounds like Harry Potter' is not a very brilliant defense. If a 'day' can mean anything 'God' wants it to, as you said, then anything else written in the Bible can mean anything we want it to. I could say 'the meek shall inherit the Earth' really means that someday, humans will be extinct and cockroaches will take over the world. I mean after all, we just don't know what He meant, do we? So who are you to deny me my interpretation of the Bible if I think that when he wrote 'day', he literally meant 'one complete revolution of the Earth' and not 'one thousand complete revolutions of the Earth around the Sun' or 'one thousand complete revolutions of the Sun around the Earth' because everyone knows the universe revolves around the Earth, right?
Why should I just believe you when you say

Who are you that I should just take your word for anything, much less something as important as whether 'God' exists?

you ask, and I have already told you. I have 3.8 billion years of rocks with fossils out there, and just because you have never seen a fossil in a rock, does not mean it does not exist. I have held them in my hands. I have seen the record like a picture book open up for me in rock outcroppings not 5 miles from where I live. It's not my fault you've never been to a museum, or your science teacher in school never showed you a dinosaur bone.
Here, I'll save you the trouble of actually going out and investigating things for yourself. Here is a picture of a fossil, some trilobites to be exact, which were very successful arthropods that existed in the world's oceans in various forms for over 300 million years. That's a heck of a lot longer than the 2 million or so years that humans have been around, or the 200 million that mammals themselves have even existed.

Eyeless trilobites from the Devonian Period (approximately 400 million years ago)

By the way, did you know that every state in the Union has a fossil, just as it has a state flower, or bird?
The one for New York is Eurypterus remipes. as a matter of fact, it happens to be a kind of trilobite that lived during the Silurian.
Click on the picture to find out more about it.


Or just find your state fossil here.

 

Seen evolution in pictures? Do you even understand the concept of evolution? Its rather insulting to everyone else that you are arguing a point without even attempting to understand the opposing side, or even doing the basic courtesy of researching the other side with rudimentary information.

You do understand that evolution is actually a series of genetic changes in the cellular development of a creature? Now, let me remind you what cells are, they are the microscoptic building blocks of life. If you want proof of cellular devlopment on an undeniable scale, look at how an embryo develops into a complex organism called a fetus. It is not magic, and if you have looked at any scan of the womb, you can see if to be true.

Are you trying to promote divine right or something? Not every single good act can be attributed to God you know. Sometimes its through personal achievement and the concept of luck!

There are people all over the world who pray to God and they are instead "hit" with something biologically destructive such as cancer or any other illness.

And by the way, you do realize Washington died from natural illness? I do believe God is in charge of illness.

....Just wow...do you research these things at all? The Great Depression came from a badly structured system of borrowing money for stock market investments-as well as a series of several negative choices by the people of the country themselves.

As for WWII, having faith? Ever hear of what happened after the Pearl Harbor incident? Things like Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened out of thin air, it was all the work of scientists. In fact the military was able to succeed because of their planning, determination and their technology. Which need you be reminded, was improved by scientists.

And then there's that incident with Hitler using his faith in your same God to start his demented crusade- he certainly wasn't smited in any way until after he had done a lot of damage. And it was by human hands.

You could go on with what, your incorrect and one-sided facts? Listen, sorry to be harsh but your views are a tad on the blind-conviction and uninformed side.

I don't know about you but I have yet to have met a person who treats scientists like prophets, or worship them. But I have seen them be respectd for their efforts and work. Would you respect the person who cured your sickness or would you spit at them as you wait to be cured by the same God who made you sick in the first place? Do you wear glasses, well take em off child, they weren't made by God so you shouldn't wear them either.....actually you shouldn't even be using a computer at all- it was crafted from Science. Computers were made out of the "magic" of scientists not the divinity of God.

As for comparing science to Harry Potter, that is a rather outrageous comment in on itself. Physics, Biology, Pharmacuticals, and many other professions of science did not appear out of nothing, nor are the methods they use just a series of conicidnetal events. (Oh my God didn't talk about how to predict a rocket's trajectory with numbers, yet we can do it, it must be the work of JK Rowling's Book it's the only logical explaination!)

And as another repetitive note, evolution doesn't happen with the simple snap of the fingers, it happens over MILLIONS of YEARS. That is easily thousands of generations and different combinations of genetics! Case and point, they use the selective evolution of PLANTS to make them a better crop! (Also the classic/crude example of combining white flowers with red ones to get pink ones- is it a different species? Not at first, but it could be.)

I don't care if you say "but we're not the same as plants" it is merely a parallel example. I mean look at parents and their children, you can see the traits that are passed on- save for some genetic exceptions due to genetic mutation, or are you going to call that stupid as well, another form of witchcraft in your eyes because it was not written in your book?

 

Again with the self-proclaimed enlightened testimonials. If people are going to at least argue in favour of Religious beliefs it isn't difficult to do it without the whole miracle thing. Bringing up personal experience about how a priest touched your cousin's sister's best friend's aunt and cured her cancer means nothing in a debate. To be truthful it just makes you look like you're a few noodles short of a ramen bowl.

On another note, I hear these things called "fawsulls" are on display in museums.