Evolution v. Creation

I'm just gonna explicate more on Repliku's mention about the human eye as perfection. In Darwin's time, it was indeed believed that the eye - that which could grant vision and was so complex - was perfect in every way, and that only God could have made it so.
However, there are flaws in the eye because of several things.
1. Some people's vision deteriorates over time. Would something perfect and created by God do such a thing? I'd think not.
2. People are born blind. That is most certainly not "perfect"; not in the human terms of life we use.

Why do some people have vision problems? Because evolution isn't perfect. It's random, similar to the HIV virus's replication; the selection of favorable genes is not predetermined. Evolution makes organisms more fit to survive in an environment, and once something evolves, the favorable trait is kept for generations (unless there's a genetic mutation along the way).

For example, there's a group of people that live in the South Asian islands that have excellent vision underwater. They mostly survive on fish and other sea creatures, so evolution has - over time - made these people evolve so their pupils expand rather than contract (as ours do) underwater.

Can you give support as to why you think Creationism is what happened?

And it's just a debate. One that's been going on for a very long time.

I'm not sure if Creationism is "magic", so to speak, but rather the hand of God putting all of Earth's beings here. Which is pretty far-fetched, if you ask me.

But how did Adam and Eve come to existance? And how is it that there's not just humans on the Earth, but there's also primates, sea creatures, and birds?

 

Look, Wolf, I believe that God made the Earth in seven days, but I never believed in Evolution. But not sure if God used evolution in creation.

 

I get that, but do you have like...evidence of there being a God/gods or the existance of Adam and Eve?

 

No, you can't proof how God created the world or how he created Adam and Eve, either.

 

Then, you can't debate it. If you have no way to back up your belief, then why post here, in the debate forum?

 

Apparently, some people feel it is bullying to have more evolution supporters than it is to de-rep people and hide. Again, I don't see why these people bother to do one thing and yet refuse to post here to make points.

What it comes down to in the end is that to believe in Creationist ideals you must have 'faith' in it. There really is nothing to support it. Also, Ben Stein was paid very well to do the report he did and it really has no bearing.

To believe in God is also a leap of faith. To believe in evolution isn't a leap of faith. There is real solid proof there. Was there a WWII? Of course. Did the weapons in WWII evolve and improve? Definitely. Was that what I'd call Intelligent Design? Yes, because humans clearly raised our standards of weapons, nuclear power etc. There was no one else to say that did that. It's the same that Mount Rushmore exists because humans who are long dead made it. There are caves in France and other countries that show Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon life as well as early burials by them from over 35k years ago. Did they design tools to use and wear furs of animals? Yes. This can be said to be 'Intelligent Design'. The problem right now with Intelligent Design is that even the people who are backing it can't show how it works. There's a concept, an idea...but then it goes cold. Evolution does not do this at all, but common people just don't see that by how they are taught because teachers aren't permitted to go into it.

However, I do not feel you have to be anti-Christian to support Evolution and see how it works. It is very fascinating and 'faith' doesn't have to be deterred just because you get to marvel in how things work and get a sneak peek into the past to watch how things have evolved. They aren't perfect and that is part of the wonder of it all.

In a way it is very hard to debate about Creationism because it declares something in black and white and is a matter of faith. I am glad that those Creationist supporters did come forward and say things here. At least you will and perhaps it is just not something to be debated on that level. This is the first time we've had people come out and utterly go for blows behind the scenes though and I don't think Creationist supporters or Evolution supporters should take the fall for it behind the scenes. If it can't be debated, as I said, why not instead don't we ask questions for better understandings of each and discuss it? This means to expand so that all three sides are comprehended more by each of us and we can have a friendly discussion on what they -are- instead of saying 'I believe' end of story. If that can't be done, the passive aggressive people that want their way will win because what's the point of sitting around waiting for idiots to just keep targeting people when all that is being asked is shared knowledge? Very frustrating.

So, those who would like to actually TALK about what all 3 mean, maybe let's stick around, and those who don't, stop the passive aggressive bully stances please. This has gone on far enough. This is a -debate- section and this is hardly as nasty as it could be. Let us -talk-. That shouldn't be so much to ask.

 

q?

Well, let me just say, thanks for ignoring me DP WOlf, among our quotes.Now, allow me to quote a whole ton.

k, God created everything when he created the earth. Not in one day, a few days. 7. I don't know if thats true or not, its more likely a code, but he created everything non the less. And as for people being blind and you whole eye thing, Darwin isn't god, nor a prophet (although to you he may be). If he states his opinion, don't tie it into what god says or anything, he was the one who started evolution, and denied god.

Do you have evidence that your Big Bang theory is real? Were you there? Hm? No. This is why i call evolution a religion of sorts, because they think they've got evidence, but they don't, its all just a theory.

nope, he didn't. Possible, but then a gain not possible.

And the evolutionists can't prove the Big Bang theory either. Like i said before, its their theory.

You know what, i really am starting to get annoyed. THis forum was made for evolutionists to rip apart believers, and you just scare away the dumb ones, and argue with the smart ones. I'm a religious person, but i keep some of my beliefs to myself, people can't handle the truth (not your truth about global warming and evolution, no, the real truth), but i will stand up for my beliefs. The truth is, whether God used the big-bang, or he used "magic", he created this world as a punishment for us. Do you ever notice how there is always a belief in heaven and hell, but they never really explain earth in ancient religions? In the creation account of the Bible, God never made hell, but it does say he created heaven. So? My point is, why can't brilliant scientists figure out the codes in the bible, instead of this crap about the big bang, like i said before, i'm really annoyed.

 

It isn't a "big deal," per say. The way I see it (and many other individuals who philosophize over this matter), it is the lack of critical analysis of the concept of creation (or the beginning of life, period, for that matter), and that makes the very foundation of creation controversial.

It's fine to blindly believe creation (which has no basis on evidence). I have no arguments to someone who simply just wants to believe it. But that makes them ignorant for not realizing the research behind such institution. Evolution's CONCEPT outweigh's creation by a landslide, and that is why it is so hard for evolutionists to believe that people actually still believe in the creationism. But it isn't just that way, either, some people who are creationists will argue THEY have the evidence and claim evolution is the concept that is flawed.

There is many different sides to this and it takes a real eye for detail and precision to see a light through the fog. I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, as well. *shrugs*

Hope I answered the question.

 

My gosh, thank you. ^.^
I keep getting de-repped for the only ONE freakin' post I made here. O_O Bleh. Might as well post here and get de-repped rather than get de-repped for no apparent reason. =/



Those who believe in creationsim, there's nothing wrong with that. It's one of the psychological tendencies [I keep bringing these up xD] where one will believe in something solely based on the reason that they were taught this from the start, as a child, and I actually forget the correct [and simpler] term for this psychological tendency :sweatdrop:, but I do in fact remember studying this particular one. Creasionism is merely a concept, it has no proof. The main purpose of it was to explain our existence when we didn't have the correct technology or the ideal knowledge which we have today, thus came creationism. We cannot prove the existence of the so called ADAM and EVE, but people still do believe it because they were taught to. Many say that they believe it because it's their WILL to believe it, but it's more likely that they were trained and drilled from the beginning to believe it, right from the start when thier minds were pure, innocent and ignorant of these things. Over time, this concept of Creaionism has gained so much strength, that it's become one of the dominant world concepts. Evolution is something that can even be seen with the naked eye. We've got so much data, info and EVIDENCE to support it. Evolution, however, is STILL just as much of a concept as creationism. But the scale definitely varies when it comes down to evidence.


And for goodness sake, there still is an in-between answer to this question, that it was GOD'S intention to have EVOLUTION! So, people who are de-repping, please, please STOP! It's not doing anything to anyone, and it's not benefitting you eeither, so if you have something to say, then SAY it. Don't hide and throw rocks at those who are brave enough to come and talk about these types of things. Be smart about it for once, and act like an adult, you're no longer in grade school.

 

Aright, CtR took care of our derepper. Give her your eternal thanks.
xD

Anyway.
As Pyro said, we didn't have technology at the time when we started to question our existence. Since we don't want to believe that we were just randomly put here, the thinkers of that time had to come up with something. So yes, the story of Adam and Eve came about, similar to all the mythology regarding astronomy. We've proven mythology to be just that (myths and legends), but there's a big divide between those that believe in creation and those that believe in evolution. In our modern society, we have creationists that don't even want to hear about evolution, and vice versa. It's going to be hard to come up with a reasonable agreement on how human life came about.

 

Well that is probably the best point a non-theism can make against a theism: the fact that we did not have technology at that time in our existence. It was otherwise noted to be a rather primitive time in our evolution.

That's pretty semantic, however. I've been really insulted by my friends dad when I mentioned that kind of logic. -_-; And well, we haven't really spoken much about it since. xD

 

O_O
HOLY CRUD, NO WAY! That's just great yo. =D Thanks a bunch to CtR. ^.^
But honestly... de-repping for this kind of crap is just plain childish, and not to mention useless.


That would be the reason creationism came about, as well as religion. Why is there religion? Because it was a means to explain why we are here and alive in Earth, basically the creation of creationism. Like a simple myth, and myths come about this way. They were nothing more than a basic form of explanation, and they died as we figured out the real causes and reasons [i.e. take seasons for example, it was believed that when Persephone would leave the world to go to her husband in the underworld, it was fall and winter, and her return marked spring and summer]. Once it was scientifically figured out the reasons for the changing seasons, the myths died. The concept of creationism still stands strong because of this, because we still do not really know [for sure] where life came from, all are nothing but theories. The so called war this simple and damned question has started, it will be a while before it is settled, and I suppose it won't be settled until after death [xD] anyway. People has become way too cocky and egoistic over this matter, and if I was religious, I'd go for the in-between theory. . . but I stick with evolution for now, I mean come on. . . the evidence is freakin' hanging in the halls of the damned museums!

 

q?

ha........CtR. Someone really doesn't like evolutionists, eh? I'm done with this section, talking to evolutionists is totally and utterly hopeless. But let me leave with saying 2 things. One, chess. The Persians invented a game that collects the essence, and values, and morals of life, and put it all in a board game. You really think they're primitive? You truly, honestly think that chess, one of the greatest games ever is primitive? And what of the pyramids? The Egyptians were some of the smartest people to ever live! You see, some people were dumb, but others were GENIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!! Just like know a days, some are dumb, and others are smart. One of the greatest questions that someone can ask in this topic, to both sides of the debate is.....
.....have you been fooled?


And the other thing is.......I was the de-reper.
WHAT?!


P.S.- DP wolf, your a ******. I'm a guy you ******!!!!

 

I'd just like to say that I did not like the comment left to me on my post. Not once did I refer to you as a girl, and if I did, how was I to know? You hide behind trying to derep me and others here who are trying to have an INTELLECTUAL debate; perhaps you didn't see that this section is called the Debate Section and everyone is therefore entitled to their own opinion. I never said anything against you, and if what I said about evolution offended you, that isn't my fault. You take offense to scientific facts, fine. But do not insult me for my beliefs.
So what if I did report you? You've been, quite frankly, an ass to me and others here. And you know what's the best part? No matter how much you try to take down my rep, you're not doing a thing. And the only reasons I'm getting are, "bad. your gonna start a flame war", "booooooooo!!", "lol, you suck", "u got nothing!!", and today's: "ha! I really don't care if you report me or whatever, i'm pissed off. I'm a guy you ******!"
I'd like to point out that you're starting a flame war with me, but doing it in a cowardly way as to not even confront me via PM. I am not being the *** here; you are, sorry to say.
And I apologise to everyone else that actually wants to discuss this topic and you end up reading that. It's just that I don't know who keeps doing this, but I do know that they will come back and that they will eventually read that.
If you, nameless MALE person, would like to talk to me about why I suck, why I have nothing, and why I'm a ******, please, PM me. I can be civil.
Thank you.


There are myths speaking of how the solid ground and sky were formed, but we now know that it wasn't any god and/or goddess that formed them. Why can't this be the same for humans and all other life?

And yes, there are fossils. We have the technology that can prove how old they are, and Darwin himself stated that when he collected fossils from the Andes Mountains in South America, he found remains of ancient sea-dwelling organisms far above sea level. At one point in time, many thousands (if not millions) of years ago, the mountains were part of a sea bed, where these organisms lived and died.
This is part of Lyell's Principles of Geology, stating that all natural observable processes that happened in the past are still occuring now, and that these processes operate continuously through time. Thus giving proof that even the Earth is "evolving" (in a sense) in a similar way organic species are.

 

I think that Evolutionism is way wrong. The theories are always changing as people find things that are wrong in them. Creationism never changes.

A lot of this has to do with religious beliefs. If you're a Christian, you believe in God and that he created everything, including man. Non-religious people don't believe that theory as easily. Some of it does have to do with science, sure, but it's mostly based off of religious beliefs.

 

Well, theories of evolution change because there's constantly new evidence being found that supports it. Like new fossils, genetic evidence, etc. Creationism doesn't change because it's a religious belief, and generally religion doesn't change very often.

Science itself is a constantly growing area, since humans hardly know anything about most of our Earth in this current time. So yes, theories will change into facts, and some facts may be changed back to theory.

 

Evolution changes because that's how science works. We get something wrong? We fix it, just like that. That's what makes it a very good theory: you can change many things, but it still goes to the same conclusion: evolution is the process of how we became more complex over time. This is science. It changes. And because it can change, it is adaptable. Evolution evolves.

You're right, Creationism does not change. That isn't good. It is not flexible.

Evolution: The scientists throw out/change some theories to fit reality.
Creationism: The creationists throw out/change reality to fit the theories.

EDIT: What's up with the page glitch? It says it's 6 pages, but page 6 doesn't exist. Click it, and it goes to this page.

EDIT2: And to the derreper: Stop it. You're not getting anything done.

And how would ANYONE with an IQ above 80 call THIS intimidating: "all are theories. Soon, thew date of the dragon will come, and athiests will piss in their pants"

 

This de-repping thing is really getting old. I had pm'd an admin on it and gotten no response as of yet but will try yet again with another. CtR did help but if it's still going on...really whoever you are, please look away and don't post here. I can understand if people are too intimidated to post here. Hell, message me in PM if you'd like to discuss things. Just please stop the de-repping. It is a bully tactic and this is a -debate- section. If you can't say words here then really, you have no right to use that de-rep button at all. We are -doing- what we are supposed to here. You are not. It's extremely passive aggressive. =:/

Why do you think it's wrong? Science is the examination of the world around us and such, collecting data and pooling things found together to form a bigger picture. Evolution is studying where we came from and all life on the world etc and becoming more familiar with our world and lives. They are theories, yes, but they hold up because of presented facts. A skeleton is a fact. A series of skeletons/fossils over centuries, thousands of years etc, is a fact, and there are many other facts than just that which are researched continuously. We apply 'theories' to explain them. Our own evolution even to this day is a fact, such as people being born without wisdom teeth and appendices because both are not as needed anymore since we aren't ripping through raw meat, processing that meat, or eating very hard vegetables and nuts etc. The interpretations are what gets questioned and sometimes changes. Not the facts themselves.

So what fact does Creationism have? It has a book. It has a leap of faith to believe writing in a book. Any person can go out and explore the living and fossil evidence we have out there and come to their own conclusions about it, even though some people will lie and say otherwise. However, one book and a leap of faith...should 1. never be examined to validate whether things are true or false and 2. should just be believed no matter what. It's a desire to believe in something simple and write off the miracle of life itself which whether you believe in God or not, evolution and the world through science really is much more astounding than any religious book or scripture could make it. It's factual and in your face and beautiful, creative and destructive. There's no need for hocus pocus explanations when instead the wonders of existence itself are just amazing. Whether you believe in a supernatural entity or not, to merely believe in the words of some men years ago who were ignorant to existence itself seems small when you can look around you and learn and explore what life is all about; knowing why something is as it is.

Science adjusts and corrects mistakes of hypotheses because as we grow more advanced and can study more, we find some errors in past ideals based on reanalysis of past data and also new material. If it did not change, I'd actually worry a lot more because it would show that science has closed itself down to the right to explore and find truth. So, can you say what makes you exactly believe in Creationism other than you are Christian? Is there any research that makes you come to this conclusion that it is just 'the way' it works? Or is it in fact just a leap of faith and that's that? Have you tried to understand evolution or just written it off because it's supposedly anti-Christian? Not trying to be mean here at all. I am curious to understand the other side of the coin in all this. I actually appreciate you posting here.

 

*facepalm* And. . . the de-repping is back, and now it's back with FLAME. Please, person, thing, dude, chick, whatever you are, just STOP. This is just getting extremely irritating. Your acts are childish and futile. This is the DEBATE CORNER, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, and you obviously have an opinion as well, THEN POST IT DAMMIT. Your de-repping is only motivating me to return and write more!



Yes, yes, the evidence of EVOLUTION is all around us, and they are openly displayed. It's impossible to deny evolution when the proof of it dangles right in front of our eyes. Fossils, cells, bacteria, DNA. . . all point to evolution and mutation. The Earth changes by day, and we are changing along with it, to be best fit for survival. Evolution is built into this world and everything in it.

Yes, the theories, they are in fact CHANGING, but they aren't DISAPPEARING. The new discoveries made which counter them are merely molting the theory into something new, but the main idea of it still remains. Each discovery leads us to something new, and we are that much closer to figuring out the answer, and this is what makes science progressive, because we always have something new to add to it, to make better sense of it. There's nothing wrong with countering evidence, it gives us more knowledge as to how we can approach the problem in a new manner, in a simpler or meliorate way.
Creationism never changes because, well, we do not really have anything to change it with. It was an assumption made centuries ago, and it's only become bolder through the years because of the blind faith people have put into it. We still cannot prove the existence of ADAM and EVE. And logically speaking, it is kind of impossible [more like IMMORAL] for the entire human race to be born from just two people.

Everything has to do with belief. And going back on what I'd said about human psychology, the belief of God, religion, and creationism is built into a being when they were young, causing them to believe it with such a strong passion, often ignoring the bare facts laid out in front. But what I really do not understand is your last statement.

"Some of it does have to do with science, sure, but it's mostly based off of religious beliefs."

Care to elaborate?

 

The derepping should be over now and if it starts up again I'd suggest messaging CtR. She's well aware of the situation now and will aid us. So, maybe now it will calm down and we can all move on. If you get PMs from the person too, whichever nick they hide behind, send it to CtR.

The situation though does show something revealing. Many people that follow evolution's line of thinking did in fact read the Bible and were raised to think the same way as Creationists at one point. However, many Creationist supporters will not take the dive to find out just what evolution really is before deciding it's all nonsense. I am glad some have posted here and hope they respond but for others who do things like the derepping and backstabbing behind scenes, it just is very revealing that they are not a very open minded person and to preserve their way of thought, they strike.

Thinking people with open minds won't bother. Other Creationists won't bother. Evolution supporters won't bother. A person who does lash out and won't talk about the beliefs is pretty much a very closed-minded and stubborn individual who feels he/she is on a crusade. It wouldn't matter whether it was on the side of Creationism or Evolution. The person feels justified that it should not be discussed and that merely bringing it up is grounds for a war. This is why I said to champion our way through it and keep discussing it because in the end, no one should have that power to 'shut someone up' about a topic such as this which does really have a bigger impact than what it should. I am glad that people did stick it out because derepping sucks but in the end, it's a small price to pay. In some parts of the world, even where people are said to be 'free thinking' societies, people are burning books, walking out of science classes and doing rallies to support this stuff being taught in school that is in effect not Science.

I'm all for a World Religions class in school which can then teach Creationism, along with every other method of creation known to man people have thought up or collect. However, this idea too gets shot down by Creationists because they don't want any other religion to be known of but Christianity. To have it mingled in with other religions as is done in College (I've taken 3 world religions classes now) is just not fair to them even though in their churches they get these lessons of Creationism any way. I simply cannot see how Creationism is a science. Nor is Intelligent Design, except when it comes to the point that -we- intelligently designed something like Mount Rushmore, cloning, atom bombs, cotton T-shirts, etc.

This is the point of the difference between 'science' and philosophy. Intelligent Design at best is a philosophy that has nothing set in stone at all. It is hypothetical to toss in that some greater being created everything because it cannot be supported or validated in the least BUT by a leap of faith. Science doesn't work off leaps of faith. We have an idea, we examine it and have to come up with solid proof OTHERS can see and experiment with. Whether God exists or not is up to the believer to decide. It is not a science and therefore, why should it have its place in a -Science- class? I can no more prove that God exists or doesn't than I can Brahma, Vishnu, Horus, Quetzalcoatl, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. These are personal thoughts and so is Intelligent Design. Finger pointing quasi-Scientists that try to pervert science with no actual proof, pointing out 'wonders of nature' as examples ...it's all fake science. They have no substantiation for the feeling that there is Intelligent Design but what a religion tells them.

This does not mean that a religious person cannot also be scientific. However, things always will be muddled every time a religious nutjob comes along trying to prove God exists with science. It just is not plausible as it is a leap of faith. Science does not try to disprove God or Allah or Vishnu or Horus etc. It is an exploration of our world, multiverse, etc from the ground up. Religious people should not fear it. It gives us all many wondrous things to live with and helps us comprehend more of that around us. Every invention we have came from modifying that around us and was scientific in nature. Someone had to think -> design -> build -> test it out -> make it available to others. That is how science works.

And this is why Intelligent Design and Creationism should be taught in a general World Religions class or at church. There is absolutely -no- proof that either is a science at all. They are philosophical and points of view that have no ending possibility to prove existence of it or not. By religious organizations continuously telling people that science is the evil bane of mankind, children are not learning as much as they could and we are getting dumber. Even with a logical solution of a World Religions class, they fight that science should be modified to keep people ignorant. Even very religious people should be afraid of that.