Do you believe that when someone gets drunk, they lose all sense of control or they still have some control? I don't mean just one or two beers, but actually drunk to the point where you act different than usual or of being close to passing out. For example, you've heard the stories of how males and females have had sex when drunk, and then when they're sober, one usually accuses the other of rape. So do you think it would be possible for two males or two females to end up having sex, for example, among other things that could happen? This would happen because they lost complete control over their thoughts and such to where something even like their sexuality, which is impossible to forget about when they're 100% sober, isn't even a thought in their head. For example, a male could have sex with another male thinking it was a female and vice-versa. I'm basing this off a heterosexual male who has a wife and kids and a heterosexual female who has a husband and kids. Thoughts? Discuss.
This was an issue in the Steubenville rape case, which reinforces that legally, you cannot consent to sex if you are drunk. It's a very problematic distinction to make (how drunk is too drunk to consent, is silence consent, etc.), but I think moral human beings would generally agree that if someone is smashed, you probably shouldn't have sex with them. But that's also complicated if you're also drunk. Likewise, if someone is intentionally getting you drunk to get you to sleep with them, they can be charged with rape. But it's a medical fact that drinking interferes with cognitive function, so you may do or say things drunk that you wouldn't do otherwise.
No trigger warning for this? Geez man. They may lose all control over their actions but they are still liable for the consequences. Rape is rape is rape. Both parties involved may think what they want but neither of them can give concrete consent. A drunken "yes" does not hold the same weight as it would sober. It doesn't matter if it's two guys, two girls, or a guy and a girl. Rape is rape is rape. If you know that alcohol affects you in such a way as to lower your inhibitions, maybe the best thing to do is not drink so much in the first place. Common sense goes a long way.
I wasn't strictly referring to rape, but sex in general between the opposite or same gender. The rape statement in my OP was an example of how people lose control of their thoughts and such that something like normal sex can turn into rape accusations from one of the people involved in it when sober.
But it is still rape if both parties do not consent. If you're at a party and you decide to take advantage of, for instance, a girl who has had too much to drink. Then what happened is not drunken sex but rape. Just like the Steubenville rape case Misty linked to. The girl in that case was taken advantage of by multiple men because she was drunk. She claims she has no memory of the incident besides a very brief period where she was vomiting on the sidewalk. Which is likely a mercy.
Of course. Sexually taking advantage of a guy or gal at a party if they're drunk is definitely wrong. I'm talking more about if they both consented while drunk, and then, when sober, accuse one another of rape. While, yes, drunk consent is illegal, as Misty said, it's still a form of consent despite later turning into rape accusations when the people are sober.
But didn't the girl in the Steubenville rape case get really drunk, pass out and then got raped instead of consenting to sex while drunk? There's very much a difference between the former and the latter. Consent can't be given in the former while it can be in the latter. I personally believe that people should be held accountable for the decisions they make regardless of what condition they're in if they decided to put themselves in that condition. Most people know that alcohol lowers their inhibitions and they might do something they wouldn't normally do under the influence. And most people who drink know what they're like when they're drunk. If they know this and drink it anyway, then they're accepting the possible consequences of their actions. So if a person decided to have sex under the influence of the alcohol that they willingly ingested, then I don't think they can accuse the other of rape. And to answer your first question, it depends on the person. Whenever I've been drunk, I still knew what I was doing and I was very much in control of my actions. I knew when I was drinking too much, when to slow down, when to stop drinking and what to do when I got home so I wouldn't have a hangover in the morning.
This is problematic territory too, though. It approaches blaming the victim--they placed themselves in a situation where the likelihood of being raped was higher, and they should have taken precaution, or thought twice about the situation. I know you mean well with the sentiment (look before you leap, etc.), but to me it feels very close to saying "well look how she was dressed, she should have thought before going out like that." Willfully ingesting alcohol =/= consent. If both people are drunk, however, it becomes difficult to place blame anywhere.
But I never said that "willfully ingesting alcohol = consent". Maybe I didn't communicate what I meant well enough but I simply meant that consent while drunk is still consent and if a person has sex with a drunk person, they shouldn't be accused of rape if the drunk person gave some form of affirmative consent and actively participated in the act. Note though that what I said previously doesn’t cover cases where the person was intoxicated against their will, or drugged without their knowledge, as that implies lack of agency. This also doesn’t cover cases where someone is passed out or completely insensible, as they’re literally incapable of giving consent or even participating. Those are obviously cases of rape. Getting drunk and deciding to bang somebody isn't. We already accept that someone is criminally responsible when they are drunk, which is why drunk drivers go to jail. If someone chooses to become drunk, and then breaks a law, we do not allow them to defend themselves by saying they were intoxicated. Why does this not work the same where sex is concerned? Why the refusal to hold people accountable for their sexual actions while drunk? For example, if I walk across a highway with my eyes closed, obviously the drivers passing by carry some blame if they hit me. However, do I not share the blame for impairing myself and then doing something stupid? How is alcohol different? If I voluntarily impair my ability to make decisions, am I not partly responsible for the result? While intoxicated, it’s certainly the responsibility of others to make allowances to a degree but I am also accountable for my behavior after I voluntarily choose to administer a behavior altering drug to myself with the full knowledge of what that would do. It’s not victim blaming to hold me responsible for my actions while drunk, and sex is an action just like any other.
"A drunk mind tells a sober heart" i go based on this theory. every1 has done **** when theyre drunk that they normally wouldnt do while sober, but based on that theory, whatever someone does while drunk theyve wanted to do while sober but just never has. they use being drunk as an excuse. My theory is that yes you do know what your doing, and can control it, you are just more careless and not care as much.[DOUBLEPOST=1370873034][/DOUBLEPOST]"A drunk mind tells a sober heart" i go based on this theory. every1 has done **** when theyre drunk that they normally wouldnt do while sober, but based on that theory, whatever someone does while drunk theyve wanted to do while sober but just never has. they use being drunk as an excuse. My theory is that yes you do know what your doing, and can control it, you are just more careless and not care as much.
Well, I don't really know about someone being drunk and acting different.. my friend got drunk one time and called me while drunk asking me all of this weird stuff like "Why haven't we had sex yet?" Or "Have you ever thought about us having sex?" Yeah it was weird, but honestly it was him being him, but no "filters" like how he is when he's sober. So I don't know if people act "different" while drunk, I think they just show who they really are compared to how they are when sober. Hence the reason why I brought up my friend.
I expressed my views in the thread Misty linked to. To summarize, you chose to take in consciousness-altering chemicals so you should accept all natural consequences that come with it. I consider falling asleep in an ashtray a natural consequence, while being groped in a daze isn't. A drunken yes should still be counted as a yes, because it is an answer you give under the influence of substances you willingly downed. Compare it to roids rage. Would you let someone off the hook if they gave in to aggressive behavior, just because they were under the influence of steroids? I hope not. Yes, alcohol makes people bolder and more honest, which is often mistaken for gibberish. Their words should still be taken with a grain of salt because they often forget or leave out important details, or are just out to taunt you, but one can learn interesting things in drunken conversations. Oh and by the way, I consider that boldness a natural consequences too. So if you'd ever find it funny to pick a fight with a gang of Outlaws and end up having your guts flossed with your own intestines, don't come crying to me.
I have been drunk once, i have a high tolerance so never bother to drink but did to prove this fact to my friends. Anyway, when on my 21st shot and out the back of the pub trying to throw up, I was totally aware of my surroundings, i basically felt like I was suffering a horrible illness, but was (unfortunately) totally conscious of all that was going on and aware of my actions. So i don't know if my experience is good to go on, but your certainly are aware of things drunk, but i guess that the perception of things can get skewered and you may act differently than usual, causing said problems to occur, since you don't care or think or worry and so on. Not a good excuse, but we've all done things before thinking we something will be alright and realising how stupid we've been acting and wonder how we ever got into that situation, so i can understand.
Figured I'd bump this to simplify my example in my second paragraph since it was never really answered; I realize that it partly may have been because I worded the paragraph in a complex way. Basically, can two heterosexual -- and maybe even married with kids -- men or women end up having drunken consensual sex with each other? I mean, can some people lose so much control that it does indeed get to the point where they don't even realize they're having sex with the same gender -- or even sex in general with whomever -- and think it's their wife or husband or something?
