Does KH Have Good Characters?

I got embroiled in a lengthy discussion with an online friend the other day when I accidentally let slip that I didn't think KH had any good characters.
He brought up Riku, saying he went through an immense character arc throughout each game
I said i was tired of seeing him deal with the darkness in each game
He replied "well without darkness Riku would be a boring character"
So that's the thing, isn't that kind of the sign of a BAD character? A character so one note that removing a single external element completely undermines their entire character?

But this got me to thinking. Sora, on the other hand, does go through some rather dramatic evolution throughout the series. But a rather bizarre evolution that strikes me more as the series' writing getting more and more incompetent... but it's still an evolution, many people have argued it's even a good one.

So, what do you guys think? Are there any characters in KH YOU would argue are good?

 

I am probably going to sound very typical when I saw I think Axel/Lea is a fantastic character. I mean, he isn't a unique character I think we have all seen this type before, but I really like how they make him in KH. He's the guy who has to clean everything up for the higher ups, but he managed to find friendship and emotions in a place not expected. I always ask myself now "what is Axel/Lea doing while this is going on" because I want to know, he has his own agenda and will make sure to follow it.

I also like how other than Sora, Lea is really the only person who has followed the "friends are my power" message[hush up about Aqua Terra and Ven, I mean, they didn't trust each other and that is what ending up being their downfall]. He's always fighting for a friend, whether it be Sora, Roxas, Xion, heck even Isa/Saix. The only think I don't really like about the character so far is that he got a keyblade, but other people were excited about that.

I also kind of like Roxas too, always fighting to exist and always telling people that he is his own person although they say otherwise. He was told straight up that he doesn't deserve to exist, wasn't supposed to exist, and that he needs to stop existing for the sake of another person. And in the end he was still fighting even after he joined back with Sora.

Other characters though, eh. The characters have gotten better over time and they have worked on making newer characters interesting. I think the KH games are mainly just catered to nostalgia and going through all the Disney worlds and seeing your favorite FF characters, and they were just trying to use that for a while and now they know they can work on storytelling more, even if the storytelling could use work.

 

With Riku, correct me if I am wrong, but I think aside from darkness, he's also trying to redeem himself for the his past deeds. I mean he's walking the path of dawn to try and make up for his wrongdoings.

I think one good character would be Roxas. He's basically fighting for himself, and his friends. Same as Sora, but I like Roxas' case better. He fights to sort of say that he exists. He continually struggles to just be able live his life, a life which isn't supposed to exist in the first place. He fights to belong somewhere, which he just can't seem to do, and when he does find a place, where he belongs, it ends up being a non-existent digital world made by Ansem. I really like Roxas' character, and his story.

 

I think there are some great characters in KH (a bit cliché sometimes , but wonderful ) .. About Riku that is what I don't like in KH 3D, it seems to me that people doing KH just don't know what to do with Riku anymore (what is a shame, because he had few cameos as a playing character), he have already "conquered darkness" at the end of Reverse/rebirth, and used splendidly at KH 2, whoever says otherwise probably didn't play or didn't pay attention to the game, even using Ansem's form he did't lost his heart or the keyblade, we can excuse them because they made Sora replay KH 1 so many times , but each time had some reason ..

I think the problem is the "plot" not the "characters".[DOUBLEPOST=1377397868][/DOUBLEPOST]I think there are some great characters in KH (a bit cliché sometimes , but wonderful ) .. About Riku that is what I don't like in KH 3D, it seems to me that people doing KH just don't know what to do with Riku anymore (what is a shame, because he had few cameos as a playing character), he have already "conquered darkness" at the end of Reverse/rebirth, and used splendidly at KH 2, whoever says otherwise probably didn't play or didn't pay attention to the game, even using Ansem's form he did't lost his heart or the keyblade, we can excuse them because they made Sora replay KH 1 so many times , but each time had some reason ..

I think the problem is the "plot" not the "characters".

 

No way, I mean, obviously from my profile picture I'm going to say that Riku is a great character and undergoes great development, but the darkness inside of him is just a metaphor for what he's done. He isn't redeeming himself for giving into the darkness, on the contrary in Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories he matures and sees that darkness is just as important as light and that they balance each other out, which is a huge understanding to come to. To realize that evil must exist for good to exist too.

So Kingdom Hearts II and past that isn't him dealing with darkness at all, it's him doing whatever it takes to reach redemption. To make up for the wrongs he's done. All of the characters are obvious archetypes, Riku happens to be the one that seeks redemption. I think he truly reaches it in Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance when he saves Sora. A story is more interesting if there's someone who has done wrong and is trying to make it right.

So again, Riku isn't trying to run away from the darkness, he's trying to make things right. He grew from being selfish and insecure (his saving of Kairi instead of Sora, him getting jealous of Donald and Goofy) in Kingdom Hearts, then in Chain of Memories we see him mature and stop blaming the darkness for his problems and start taking responsibility for himself and in Kingdom Hearts II we see him finally begin redeeming himself truly, then in Dream Drop Distance he actually redeems himself. Ansem is to serve as a reminder of the awful things he did, not just that darkness once consumed him. He doesn't want Riku to give into darkness, he wants Riku to be selfish again. The darkness is very metaphoric in Kingdom Hearts, especially with Riku's character. Riku matures more than any of the other characters throughout the games, and that's what people like to see. A selfish and bitter boy growing into a selfless and humble man.

 

I think that DiZ/Ansem the Wise is a pretty good character. Solid backstory, motivation that you can relate to, eventually realizes that his ghost-chase was wrong if it meant hurting innocent people, and he seemed very remorseful for his mistakes.

 

The characters were great in the first game, because it's all in the details, and KH had details in spades. In particular, the way the game shows the radical shift in Riku's worldview and relationship with his friends in short, controlled bursts was brilliant: first wary, yet happy to be reunited in Traverse Town; then, playfully competitive in Monstro; and ultimately downright antagonistic in Neverland, running over into pure evil at Hollow Bastion. Sora showed real growth as a person, and every world either contributed to or showcased that growth. The villains were many vibrant shades of intimidating and actually in control of their environments, making them all credible threats in their own right. And ASoD's performance, no matter how hammy, was just beautiful thanks to the work of his talented voice actor and vivid expressions. No matter how many times I go back over it, I can't find a sore spot in the cast. I liked every character for what they offered.

Then something happened. Scientists are still puzzling over it to this day. Everyone can now be easily condensed into a list of five or less traits, and one of them is probably a gameplay mechanic or magic element. My honest opinion is that Nomura wasn't ready to write an epic of so many installments.

 

When all of your characters are archetypes that have been getting the same repeated character arc for 7 games, they're not good characters. I don't care how much you like them, they're not good.

As Nova touched on they started out good, but eventually degenerated into watered down nonsense. Riku got it the worst in my opinion. His struggle with darkness has been rehashed for, what, 6 games now? The only reason Ansem keeps coming back to him is because they have nothing else to do with his character, or aren't smart enough to know what to do with it. Everything after CoM did nothing for the character. That scene at the end where he is at the crossroads should have been the end of it, and I think it was supposed to be until they started writing KH2 and realized they don't know what else to do and they don't want to progress Riku too far while Sora still has yet to progress at all and probably never will beyond fighting abilities. Riku's character is his struggle with darkness. That's all. Riku's character started out as an interesting foil for Sora in KH1, and then became that token "I have identity issues and all the girls love me for it" character. Love the character all you want, but when his defining character trait is his one character trait and it's a typical struggle with darkness and you don't even have the creativity to go past that, it's not a well-written character.

Edit: Of all the problems I have with BBS, I will say that Terra is probably the best character in recent games (but sill not flawless). I don't know if I'll still be saying this a week from now, but from what I remember I think he is. He had the same initial problem as Riku, but they didn't take him in the same direction. He learned his lesson sooner, and is actually living it for a change.

 

The thing is, with Terra, it's ridiculously inconsistent. I feel like they didn't want to write a negative story or Terra in BBS, so instead of showing his steady fall to darkness, we get world after world of Terra triumphing over darkness, learning life lessons... and then being told that he had done terrible things and was now the darkness. It's a very strange arc

There are still shades of it in the later games. Sora's discussion about Santa Claus in KH2 will always be my go to example. But that's exactly the thing, KH1 set up a pretty solid foundation, and CoM was a pretty good continuation... but then someone decided KH2 should have the character depth of anime cliches

 

I'm not saying it's a flawless character arc, I'm saying that I think it's better than Aqua's, Ven's, and nearly every other characters arc from recent games. Looking at the character himself, there's more substance there than other recent characters. How the game presents his character is definitely a problem, and not everything he does makes sense, but it's still more interesting to me than others solely by the foundations of his character and how he doesn't become that tortured by darkness anime "cliche", as you put it. I appreciate that he's not simply a copy of Riku, which he so easily could have been.

Totally agree with the part about anime cliches

 

Again I say, I honestly believe Nomura ran low on material. He probably thought the only way to follow up the success of the brilliant first game was to drown it in sequels, because that's what's in. I say this because, yes, the later games have some very poignant moments, but they're in much shorter supply.

And let's be clear, I still enjoy the later games; I just think the writing peaked with the first one. The gameplay is finally picking up again after the train wreck that was KH2 combat, several of the recurring voice actors gave downright stellar performances in 3D, the music is getting better and better, and KH3 looks gorgeous even at this stage—Crossing my fingers it'll look at least that good as a finished product, you never know with trailers these days.

 

You keep saying Nomura, but KH has WRITERS
And beyond that, translators
There's a lot of error points for Nomura's vision to be lost in

 

I agree that the writing for the series post-COM hasn't been too good (KH2 Disney worlds eugh), but I really think DDD showed an improvement, if only for having a really interesting inversion of the Sora/Riku dynamic from the first game. Throughout KH1, Sora really didn't bother to ask too many questions about things or mull over what was happening. He just went with the flow and put his heart first and foremost, and ended up doing a pretty bang up job. Riku, on the other hand, was skeptical about quite a number of things on both sides; "why does Sora have the Keyblade, Why is Sora off with those buffoons and not here with me, Why can't I save everyone, Can I trust the darkness, etc." All of his questioning and seeking answers to prove he was right/what was right led to his fall into darkness and subsequent save by Sora.

But in DDD, it was Riku's skepticism that made him "immune" to the darkness and Xehanort's plans (using it but not trusting it like he did in KH1), while Sora had fallen to the darkness because he blindly followed his heart straight into an abyss without questioning why he was having all these visions in the last part of his story. It brings the struggles of the two in a complete circle -- that while you should follow your heart and believe in yourself, you should also be wary for "you never know who/what you'll run into next".

This gives a very nice chance for Nomura to really develop Sora's character and allow us to see what the culmination of his triumphs and his recent defeat will shape him for what lies ahead. Riku as well, since he's proven himself in both his friends (a while back tho) and his own eyes that he is worthy of the Keyblade. I really hope this was planned by Nomura to build up for KH3 to be the definitive growth of the cast, but in any case, I reaaaaaaaaaally do not want him to drop the ball at all like KH2 had.

 

The writers, then. But I still don't think "Nomura's vision" accounted for all this extra craziness. Maybe the writers could've made it flow better altogether, but everything still feels like an add-on to the first game. That story was, for all intents and purposes, complete, and the re-use of characters from it dulled their personalities.

And the translators can't fix what's already broken. :\ It has nothing to do with that.

 

You know i would say Roxas but im probably being a typical fanboy who played KH2 first. :p

 

Gonna have to disagree with that. A translation can fix things, as long as the translator is clever

 

Gotta agree. A good translator can add a lot of character and charm to a horrible line.

 

I enjoy Kingdom Hearts II a lot; probably a little more than Kingdom Hearts, so I don't understand all this hate toward Kingdom Hearts II.

 

Sora, Riku, Kairi, and Roxas are all pretty generic characters.
Namine is too, a little, but less so than the others.
Terra, Aqua, and Ventus are all pretty cool. Less predictable and generic than the others, and I prefer them over the other main trio.
Most of the members of Org. XIII seem like they could be really good characters, if only we saw more of them and knew more about them. Vexen especially.
Axel is by far my favorite character, though. He's the only character in the entire franchise that ever REALLY stood out, in my opinion, and we learn a lot about his character in a comparatively small amount of time. When he got more attention in 358/2 that only made it better. BBS developed his character a lot more, too, through Lea, which I thought was pretty awesome. He's still one of my favorite video game characters to this day.

 

They can fix a bad line, but the're hard-pressed to sell a bad plot hook or repair a broken character. Actions are at least as important as words, and a good translation can't change the fundamental structure of the narrative - short of tossing it out completely, which doesn't exactly fix it. 3D's translation was stellar, and Sora had some great lines; doesn't make him less stupid in the long run. And Hatok, weren't you the one who said you didn't like either Riku or Axel's character arcs in that game? Their dialogue was good, but can it save them alone?