358/2 Days Do you think Xion was really all that important?

In his journal Xemnas wrote this:

So Xemnas sometimes sees her as Sora maybe and Xigbar sees her as Ven. From what I can tell only Roxas Axel and...Genie...see her true form.

 

And, we didn't know for sure if Ven and Sora were connected until Xigbar saw Xion as Ven.

 

Again, this didn't point out the connection even though many people took it as one. There was alot more evidence that was more definite. If anything that just further built upon Xigbar's line in KH2

By allow specification of who he was referring to. From this we learned he was infact referring to TAV. This was more of a hint to Braig's interaction and his larger role in BBS.

 

Day 255:
Final StagesAuthor: Xemnas

Xion's appearance should vary based on the relation of the viewer to her. Saïx sees her simply as a puppet. The Program approaches completion. Through Roxas, Xion is assembling a copy of the hero of the Keyblade. As proof, she sometimes appears to take on his form to my eyes.


from what this says in journal xemnas sees her as sora. thats what it sounds like.

 

ehh she was somewhat important but she was also what conected sora and roxas together so somewhat and very important this was a good game.

 

I thought that was really obvious at this point. How Roxas looks like Ven, and Xigbar saw Xion as Ven. But we have to wait for BBS to come out first to know for sure. TT___TT

 

I personally believe she was important to the 358/2 Days storyline. The KH storyline as a whole? Somewhat. As Near pointed out: Without Xion, Roxas probably wouldn't have gone looking for Sora.

 

I don't think she was that important to the Kingdom Hearts series as a whole because she wasn't really mentioned in KH2 and probably won't be mentioned in future games. In Days I think even without her Roxas may have left the Organization without her because he wanted to find out who Sora was. It's just that they needed to explain how Roxas is was able to duel wield with Oblivion and Oathkeeper so really that's probably why Xion was made, she was able to trigger Roxas' ability of duel wielding while nobody else could not so much as her having to do with Roxas leaving the Organization.

 

I completely agree. ^___^ Also, maybe Xion may be somehow linked to the story of one of the future KH games. But besides that possibility, I still think she was just as expendable as HPO.

 

I would of said yes but.....(don't read if you haven't played the end yet)

Spoiler

everyone forgets about her when Roxas absorbs her

 

I say somwhat important and even though everyone forgot her roxas re rememberd her after obsorbing her and with what xion destroyed and xemnas's plan all driving to get the answer of his existence really caused the events that led to kh2. At least she's not as useless as kiari in games prior

 

shouldn't you spoiler taged some of this?

 

But of course she's important.

After all, she helps Roxas dual-wield.

 

Well, everyone forgot about Sora at the beginning of Kingdom Hearts II, but he's still important. It isn't really about whether or not they remember her. But then again, she really didn't do much for anyone BESIDES Roxas.

 

Yes, because it revealed why Roxas quit. It makes more sense than the "Baaaaaw! I don't have any memories!" reason that we were given earlier.

 

Well, since BBS came out in Japan and thanks to translations, we know how Sora and Ven are connected.

Spoiler

Sora and Ven are connected because at the end of BBS, Sora absorbs Ven's completed heart.

Spoiler

Sora grew up looking like a brown haired blue eyed Vanitus because Vanitus and Ventus merged.

That's why Roxas looks like Ven instead of Sora looking like Ven.

 

I hate her, and I think she's highly useless and pointless to the overall series. The only manner of importance she ever had was in 358/2 Days, which when you think about it, had more to do with the characters. And that went to crap at the end, regardless. I just feel that she's full of, bull, basically. Her whole existence...well, now that she does exist when she didn't.

For the sake of actually answering the question, I'll start off why I think she's nothing, but a mere plot device. Or why her character just does not interest me whatsoever. This is rather big, because I never hated any KH character, let alone a female one.

WARNING - LONG READ.

** Xion is more or less, a watered down version of Kairi with more angst. Her personality was bland. Boring. Nothing new we've seen, and nothing compelling. Nothing extravagant, and nothing original. Being cute does not constitute as a reason: why in the world would it? I'll be propping up a million female characters in my favorites list if that was the case. Especially when the truth on whose appearance we see, and who, in fact, "she" really is. I'm not so fond of Kairi either. I'm neutral until she is able to come out and be able to stand on her own. But I can at least give Kairi some appreciation because she seems to have flaws as a character (being impulsive, stubborn, and sort of asking for trouble when she can't really do much at the moment to defend herself. Kairi haters can give you a lot more). Xion has no flaws in personality. Absolutely none. The only problems she causes are on the thought that it's for the sake of everyone and her friends, and forcing Roxas to kill her is more or less a die or die situation of choices to the point where there isn't a good escape. So we have this sweet, kind, spunky, nice, giggly, perfect angel who oh so much suffers such travesties and tragedies. And who still, by the end of the game, remains this sweet, kind, spunky, nice, giggly, perfect angel, only more brave or something. Of course, give her more positive aspects, why don't you. If there is a perception of Mary Sue that she fits, is perfection. There's nothing wrong with the girl. Being a clone is circumstance.

I wouldn't have a problem with Xion hanging around good-looking guys (or else I wouldn't love Larxene)...if she hadn't kept fainting all the time, and in "coincidence", all three (Roxas, Axel, and Riku) where there in time to capture her faint, weak self in their arms, hold her (or in Riku's case, brush her bangs too), or save her. That's where the line blurs. If this wasn't canon, I bet people reading this in fanfiction would immediately stop reading.

Tell me one flaw Xion has, just one. I challenge you. Then maybe I can give her a break if I don't have an answer to it.

** Her tragedy. Don't get me wrong, I don't usually bash people who end up with sad fates. It's when the game forces it on me that I have a problem. And I said this before somewhere else. The whole game felt like Xion was merely created to be pitied, and we had to see how much she suffered, how a pathetic scream and tears got to her when Riku was a complete and utter stranger, whose words shouldn't even be trusted. Then the nightmare, how the evil villains (except the main characters, naturally) were so cruel to poor Xion, especially Saïx D:. Lord help us all for this sweet little girl, let's cry us all a river, shall we please? It's a ploy to get us all to like her and forget the fact that she came out of nowhere. So, please, fall for it. And all this wrapped up in her sparkly, more long than needed, death. The whole thing seemed so shoved down my throat that my response was negative, especially when the game actually stated "poor Xion" (which, if it didn't turn me off by that point, permanently did there). It couldn't get as more obvious as it was then what they were trying to do to the audience. And from what I see, it worked. To some, anyway. Roxas nor Riku Replica never made me feel like this, neither did Naminé. Their stories were pretty passive, and while you feel for Roxas, he was more angry than a moper, and Riku Replica is just full of antagonism. Naminé we didn't see much of her until the end (where, yes, it was possible for her not to steal screen time), but it was enough to understand her feelings. Both three of these people did not take over the story, plot, or overall game just to explain the reason of their angst. That's where Xion fails. Let alone the fact that when Xion isn't there, there is either the topic of her being discussed, or Roxas worrying about her. Or constant mentions. It's like impossible not to have her name in the topic long enough.

It's okay for you to love this. I don't.

And, seriously. Take out the music or drown it out, and her death isn't exactly so great. It was more of Shimomura's talents that made the scene close to worth it.

My Organization development and depth other than the one dimensional characteristics they kept throughout the game was forsaken for this? :/

** Of course, since Nomura couldn't screw up the sequel, with no one mentioning her in any way whatsoever in the series, they made everyone lose the memories. The cop out didn't sit well with me at all, because if you were aware of the plot hole, why create it? For the sake of some story that could've been anything else? That's another one of my main gripes. And it isn't even starting. Now we'll really get down to her "plot importance".

** Xion had no purpose. Argue it with me, if you wish. Anything that had to do with BBS didn't concern her, and the only part that did was more or less the fact that Xigbar saw her as Ven at one point (and that rests on Sora and Roxas, considering that was more of a reaction to Sora's memories that Xion only holds, not her exactly).
2. Dual wielding can be easily explained by Sora or Ventus. You know it's true.
3. The Deep Dive scene....did anyone notice the fact that Riku was already there waiting in the skyscraper? What was going to happen, a peaceful talk? Tea party? So you mean to tell me he wasn't there in any possible way to stop Roxas, when Diz came right after Roxas was defeated, and had Data Twilight Town all set for this moment? Did Xion went into everyone's mind, then? That was perhaps the biggest slip of the whole game. Sorry, don't buy it, can't buy it. Especially since Roxas throwing the Keyblade could be explained in pure action that he was surrounded by Heartless, succumbed, jumped out of the way and looked around the swarm (honestly, why make it look this way if it wasn't going to serve anything?), and saw the hooded figure on top, and asked silently for his aid. Granted, we don't know the reason, but Roxas and Riku did meet in the game before. Something else could've went on. Or it can be the Sora inside Roxas, which also appeared when Riku was taunting him, and when he finally admitted, "You really are his Nobody." Done deal.
4. Roxas turned out to be needed regardless of whether Xion had been there or not. It's not like Sora recovered when she died, after all, even though his memories either returned to him or Roxas (still confused on that aspect). Take it this way - if Sora's memories did leak, and it was made a plot point still, it would go to Roxas if Xion was nowhere in the game (considering the interview with the creators stated that Sora's memories went through Roxas and into her...after) like 358/2 Days finished with. If Sora's memories didn't leak, they will remain with him or a part of Roxas like 358/2 Days finished with. Spot a pattern? KH2 wouldn't have changed, in other words. Roxas was more of the rightful key, no matter how it went. Xion exists? Xion does not exist? Makes no scratch, end of.

So it was back to square one anyway. I mean, does anyone actually see the sense of this? Honest answer?

358/2 Days basically made a simple explanation more complicated, confusing, and convoluted than it needed to be to rake in some money.

** As if all this wasn't enough, we'll take the "impact" she had on Roxas. It's one thing to not remember somebody, even when some memories of your past life comes back, like Roxas's time in the Organization's did. Except that, for Xion being this GREAT, IMPORTANT REASON for Roxas to leave, and the "main", he finds no problem as to why he abandoned his former comrades when the supposed "source" of it is gone. Especially when you consider his argument with Axel in 358/2 Days and the "no one would miss me" scene. If someone had this much influence, wouldn't you think a huge part or piece is missing? Wouldn't Roxas think that there are some dots not connecting? He didn't question it, and whatever he did figure out, was fine with him as good reasons to have ditched Organization XIII, apparently. Which brings to question Xion's role as a whole. If you have an explanation, please, do so.



Overall, it was a big waste of time. 358/2 Days was probably the most filler I have ever seen of a side game, and most of what happened isn't even remembered. ALL of it. It's not just Sora who forgets (who even was hinted to possibly have gained it back in KH2: FM+). ALL. And the reason why was the cop-out said above. Not that it needs to be remembered when you think it over. Was Xion advertised and made to be important? Maybe. Was she really? Absolutely not. And until she does, it will remain that way. She's a 'clone' of Sora/Roxas, created by the Organisation by out of something-about-Sora's-lost-memories-mumble-something because they apparently needed an extra keyblade user cause is whatever. Nomura finds it clever, I find it nonsensical.

Like someone said: "What was her point, anyway, other than mass eye!tear-age and Roxas-character!mauling?" And even then I felt more for Roxas and Axel than I did Xion.

 

Long is long.

Xion I think, was important. While Axel was gone, she became friends with Roxas, and she changed him as much as he changed her. The "emotions" Roxas seemed to feel about eating ice cream alone, and when he saw the seashells Xion had gathered for him, were all part of him developing because of her. Xion also changed Axel, in that he was ready to risk a lot for her, as well as Roxas. This takes a lot, being that all three were not supposed to have emotions. While she is important only in 358/2 days, what would it have been like without her there?

 

It would have been the same, considering the acts of friendship can easily rest on two certain people alone. The duo, and what were the best male friends.

Roxas himself has proceeded to mature on his own, and with the probability of him having a Heart, the "emotions" that are quoted are more or less possible to be real and have a life of their own. The seashells she left are just simple reactions of the fact that...well, she left seashells for him while he was unconscious. He returned the favor. That doesn't really have to do with anything except another act of friendship. It doesn't even matter much in the game except for it being her signature from time to time. That was probably the introduction to that motif, actually. So I don't understand what you're attempting to project, if you can make it a bit more clearer.

The truth is: it all started with Axel and Roxas.

Sea salt ice cream, which was Axel's idea, was way more important, more meaningful, and more symbolic to the situation. It's even the icon that you see in the DS screen. It's what Roxas constituted as what friends do, to the point where it was his words as Xion was dying. You mean to tell me he learned how to care, worry, and defend a friend because of her? His attitude? His personality? All that he's shown since the very beginning? Smart-aleck words like "I could've done that blindfolded" and speaking back to Vexen wasn't Xion's doing. And feeling alone when eating ice cream by himself was her cause? So Axel has no role, right? Roxas never mentioned him, of course. And yes, I'm not being serious. You're heavily leaving him out. Aren't these natural feelings in themselves? Just like he was feeling sick about whether or not Axel was dead?

In reality, from what I see, Roxas (and her, if we have to) learned a lot more from Axel, who not only taught him many meanings, but solidified what friends do the most. He was the teacher and the adult figure, the person that was most went to when he wanted answers. The other half was covered by the Disney worlds Roxas visited. Most of the questions, if not all, stem from what he witnesses every moment he goes on a mission and the people there. Which was even made a point of by Nomura before 358/2 Days came out about what role the worlds play in an interview. And these said questions hauled over to the Organization and their motives. Even before Xion ever died or he discovered the truth, I remember a conversation with Axel very clearly where he inquires a lot about what Organization XIII does. I'll find the quote if I have to.

Xion didn't change Axel either. Axel doesn't even remember Xion and he has, like Roxas, no problem recalling anything else as to what made him different. He wouldn't have stated Roxas made him feel like he had a Heart, was the only one he liked, and basically got through the whole of KH2 trying to protect and bring him back. As it was originally. Again, natural reactions to people you care about. Xion also wasn't in Castle Oblivion, where notes of Axel changing began to be said in the game after his return. In the secret reports, he also doesn't alienate Roxas when he said they remind him of his childhood memories. It was both, but if you wan to take Xion out, we all know it could have been Roxas only as well if she didn't exist (which, let's face it: she didn't). To be truthful, he never alienates Roxas when concerning his views. Xion just sort of tacked on.

So don't peg all this growth solely on her part, because that's not true. There were other forces at work. I can safely even bigger ones.

 

I am impartial towards Xion. I don't particularly like her as a character, because as you mention, she's a bland mary sue. However I do respect that she has a place in the continuity, and that she ties up her fair share of plot holes. Now whether she was originally intended to exist is anyone's guess. I'd like to believe that Nomura had the idea for her during the KH2 planning stage, and left it open enough so that he could use her, or could resort to something else if Roxas was unpopular. From what I've been spoiled about for BBS (Damn Jube and his Not-Another-Sora-Clone thread) it seems as if Xion's not alone, and it was done outright with Repliku, so a part of me thinks that he was planning his lolclones approach from the start. Like I said, anyone's guess.

Her character doesn't interest you at all? Perhaps it's the way you're looking at her, or because you write her off due to being a Mary Sue? Maybe it's just the graphics of the DS? I might be scraping the barrel here, but I'm just throwing out a few ideas. Getting onto the rest though.

I'll do my best to try and do equally long retorts, but I may fall short as it's getting late.

Okay, first things first. Xion is a watered down version of Kairi with more angst. This is excellent and exactly how you should be seeing her. She is the embodiment of Sora's memories of Kairi, so it's fitting that she has many of the personality traits of Kairi. This is fine, because it's justified by her being Sora's memories of Kairi molded onto a blank slate. This sort of thing is only unacceptable and a sign of bad writing when the character is unrelated and has the characterisation because the author felt like it. When it's planned out to give that impression, it's just as planned. Due to fanfics and the like, people seem to have developed a phobia against ripoffs of characters. Try to put that prejudice aside (even though I understand how irritating a fanfic mary sue is) and examine the plot for reasons. Back to the point though, isn't Xion impulsive and stubborn when she hunts that chameleon heartless? IIRC, she charges out and gets knocked out. There's more of Kairi's traits coming through. As for being perfect: Recap time. Who is she a direct clone of? Sora. Sora has never given into the darkness, always fought for his friends, always believed in himself, always been grinning, always done the right thing, sacrificed himself to save Kairi, saved Namine, etc. etc. ad nauseum. Being a clone of Sora, she gets these properties of him (Roxas seemed to get stuck with the "prone to violent outbursts" and the "complete idiot" traits of Sora, but I digress). However I thought you mentioned angst a while back up there? IIRC, didn't Xion hit depression when she was unable to wield the keyblade and when she realised what was happening to her? Being a clone isn't a downside in itself, but angsting over it definitely adds some character development.

My next point is that her mary-sue (read: Sora-ish) nature appears more and more when she gets better at wielding the keyblade. For example, I remember a distinctly peppy moment after she cuts down the darkside that just owned Roxas. This nature is justified, because she's absorbing more Sora memories from Roxas. This culminates in her sacrifice at the end of the game, much like Sora sacrificed himself to bring back Kairi.

So yes, she has traits of a Mary Sue, although she has her share of angst, and the mary sue traits are justified. I believe that the fanbase has been given a hate for Mary sue traits due to bad fanfiction, causing all Kairi-recolour-clones (including personality) to be shunned.

You forget the tragic (bah, every time I use that word I think of twilight) irony in place there. The reason she's fainting is because Roxas is draining her of energy while Axel is either protecting the organisation's investment or trying to surround himself with those related to Sora in order to feel his heart and goes so far as to knock her out later in order to keep her. Suddenly the cute fainting is a lot more ominous, and Axel's protection seems a tad more cynical.

Stubborn, like Kairi. She attacks that lizard recklessly and refuses to go back with Axel, despite him having the upper hand. You've admitted that these are flaws of Kairi's earlier on, and Xion is just Sora's memories of her. How is it different?

Xion created to be pitied? She fills other roles, and if you look below the surface of what the game tells you (remember, we have an unreliable narrator here), you can see that she has a bit more to her. Taking Siax for an example, he only saw her as a puppet. To him, she didn't have anything, while Xemnas and Xigbar saw her as a face-changing tool. But ignoring the other sides, I say the fans brought it on themselves. The fans cried out "Poor Roxas!" "Poor Namine!". Some of us even gave Repliku a mention or two. We all saw these tragic stories and liked them. However that wasn't the intended purpose of those characters (bar Namine). Repliku was a loose end and Roxas was angry Sora clone. Sure, there might have been a bit of intention in there, but overall it wasn't their main purpose. Even so, the fans jumped on Roxas and loved his angsty body. There were also those who empathised with Repliku's memory rape. Seeing this, Nomura gave the fans what they wanted: a fully fledged tragedy girl. If X is successful when it's an accident, an intended 2X must be twice as good and a 10X must be fantastic.

Love it? I don't. Do I want you to love it? Not really. I'd like to bring Xion up to average in your eyes, but that's probably too hopeful.

Take out the music? That's ridiculous. The music is part of the scene. The scene is supposed to be sad, so there is fitting music for it. The music is part of the effect. We could have had Ode to Joy or Hallelujah playing in the background in full Evangelion style, but that just doesn't fit in. Don't bash them for choosing fitting music just because you don't approve of the character.

They could have co-existed, but Nomura didn't execute it well enough. We learned much about nobodies though, and we did get to see Saix, Xigbar, Luxord and Demyx get a bit more fleshed out. I learned more about them in this game than in KH2, that's for sure.

It explains why Roxas quit and what the Organisation was doing during that time. It may even lead into BBS.

Tell me something: Would you be equally annoyed if the games were released in the order: KH1, KHCOM, KH358/2, KH2, BBS?

Also, where could Xion fit into KH2? Roxas gets his memories erased and soon fuses with Sora, Axel wants to be around Roxas/Sora, the Organisation doesn't care, because she was the failed keyblade bearer and they had Sora. DiZ hates all Nobodies and Riku keeps everything to himself. Even if everyone kept their memories of her, she had no place. So instead Nomura attempted to invoke sympathy for her, because she is completely erased from the world. I can look at it as a masterstroke as a horrible fate to suffer, or you can view it as a cheap cop-out to bring in more money. You've chosen the second, but the first is just as viable.

Xion explains a good deal of what the organisation was doing before Sora woke up. A group of the strongest nobodies don't wait around for something good to happen, they become proactive and try to do it themselves. They created Xion to be the main plan. It so happened that Roxas turned up, so they used the opportunity to try to strengthen their weapon by pitting the two against each other after sucking Sora dry. (The plan would have worked, except for how Roxas, Xion and Axel have emotions.) Xion stops the organisation looking like a bunch of bad-guy incompetent fools and makes them look like the genius scientists of the heart they're supposed to be. Xion also explains why Roxas quit. I don't know about you, but I prefer "They forced me to kill my best friend!" to "Baaaw! Not knowing why I have this big key makes me feel ANGRY". It ties up plot holes. Duel Wielding could have been fixed in other ways, but now was as good of a time as any. She solved it, so credit is given where credit is due.

With Xion gone, Riku went on the move to capture Roxas on DiZ's orders. DiZ had Data Twilight Town set up due to experimenting with transforming hearts into data. He originally wanted to use it to open up the Kingdom Hearts in TWTNW, but it was there to be used. He didn't program it on the off chance he may need to contain an angsting nobody.

Roxas chucking the keyblade was Roxas wanting to destroy KH and assuming Riku was against them too, gave him a weapon. Easily sorted.

The memory leaking thing is easy. It explains why it took so long for Sora to wake up. The Organisation made Xion to harvest hearts and to keep Sora asleep by assimilating his memories. It's the entire premise of how she worked. Just having Roxas wasn't as problematic, because he was a part of Sora and could have been captured earlier. Also, it again comes down to highly-professional-organisation-plotting-Sora's-downfall v.s. a-bunch-of-thirteen-opportunists. If they made Xion especially to harvest hearts and keep Sora asleep, it's the first. If they happen to have Roxas and he happens to get memories, it's the second.

Ties up plot holes, as explained before. Obviously the end result is the same however you play it, because we need Sora whole. We can take Roxas out of the equation entirely and just have the idea that Sora doesn't get a nobody and he spends a year asleep having memories fixed. The Organisation just take advantage of him when he wakes up. Oh, and we have Axel kidnap Kairi to give him motivation to fight onwards and Sora fights the nobodies that Axel kamikazes. The thing is Roxas fleshes it out, as does Xion.

Judging from the Sora clones in BBS (damn Jube), the convoluted plot isn't Xion's fault, she's just a part of it.

Oh, and all the Roxas parts of KH2 made a simple explanation more complicated, confusing and more convoluted that it needed to be in order to rake in some money.

At that point, he still had remnants of memories of her, which is why he didn't try to bide his time and strike sneakily. He knew that he was forgetting her, so he was on a deadline. He had to destroy Kingdom Hearts before he did exactly what you suggest and turned around. It turns out that Riku gets to him first and erases all his memories, thoroughly destroying Xion's memories in him. Also, he has a heart, as is repeatedly hammered into us without saying it outright. He couldn't stand the organisation's cold methods, so he quit. No one would miss him, because no one missed the comrades who died in C.O. So there are two explanations.

I reserve judgement on the clones plot until BBS is released in English. I recommend you do the same, because it seems as if this is going somewhere.

I know I've said this a lot, but I'll say it again. I suspect you dislike her because she's the stereotypical nightmare fanfic 14th member Kairi clone with a tragic past and a keyblade. I think you've misjudged her and that there's more to her than that.