Kingdom Hearts II Discussion of Secret Ending

Thanks Riku. Unfortunately, I'm only making a guess that Aqua is the voice. I want to find a way to tie the knights to the Destiny Islands trio.

The connection between the blue haired knight, and the Roxas look-a-like is strong. While fighting they stay close as the third knight fights alone; when the blue-haired knight goes down, the youngest knight is by her side in a few moments; when he's caught, the two meet eyes, and share a moment of horror. I'd like to stress that it is the first moment in the entire video that naked eyes meet without visors obscuring them. Nomura meant for that moment to carry a lot of weight; lastly, she manages to catch him just in time, before he would have shattered to the ground (alive! Baldy's cold blooded to the bone).

Nomura wants us to feel the connection between the "Aqua" and "Ven" strongly. Personally, I'm convinced that the Roxas look-a-like must have some connection to Sora, just as Roxas had a connection to Sora. It's not coincidence that they look the same. So I'm trying to find a way to connect the blue haired knight to Sora.

 

He has hair, correct, but being in the past, maybe he didn't always keep his hair.
Face and his eyes match very closely.

 

Guys, I may have stumbled onto something. It may be mere coincidence and it may not.

Saix and Xigbar both have pointed ears and they also have gold eyes. Well, so does the bald-dude from the secret ending. Does anyone think that there's a connection?

And another thing that I've been thinking about is that the name Ven that was given to the Roxas-look-a-like is a sham. I think that Aqua and the Xehanort look-a-like gave Roxas the name Ven before Xemnas gave him the name Roxas. That could explain why they look the same and why Nomura said that he's a new character. He technically hasn't been introduced yet as Ven, only as Roxas.

This is just a side note. It's very random and it may mean nothing but has anyone noticed the similarities between Riku and Roxas's outfits? They seem to have several distinct similarities.

 

I thought the secret ending was sad, poor guys :(

There is a lot of things about it that could drive one insane if they ponder about it too long. I'm off to think about it now, i'll tell you if i go insane.

 

You're right, Shingo, the connection between Ven and Aqua are strong. Although I'm not sure that Baldy is as cold blooded as you think. There may be a connection between Ven and Baldy.

When Baldy is holding Ven by the helmet, it appears as if he is just torturing him by letting him squirm. However, if you look at Baldy's face when it zooms into his face, you can see that he looks like he's lamenting, almost regretful. Then he smiles a crooked smile and drops him off a cliff. He smiles almost all through the video, and normally, he would be all smiles after pulling off such an awesome move like that without even looking back, but he isn't. Even the his smile before he dropped Ven off the cliff was smaller than usual, indicating that it is forced. He also hesatates before dropping him.

Additionally, when he saw Baldy, he started to run forwards, but was held back by Larry. I don't know how they knew each other, but I'm guessing that they had a Student/Teacher relationship.

Although he doesn't let it get in the way of the battle, Baldy still feels a hint of remorse.

I've been thinking about that lately and I think I've come up with something. It could mean the birth of Xehanort as Ansem's apprentice through the loss of memory (or "sleep") of whoever he was before. It would be considered 'sleep' and not 'death' of this persona, since forgotten memories can be remembered again, thus 'waking up' his past self.

I believe that the room of sleep is able to put a nobodies' current self to sleep, to temporarily access his past self in a more vivid way than just remembering.

There are many things that make me think this. Early in the Xigbar and Zexion conversation scene Vexen says something along the lines of, "What is he doing sleeping at a time like this?" This implies that he is actually sleeping to some degree. Vexen is a scientist type, so he would know how it works. He couldn't resist finding out. Also, if he was just referring to activity in the room of sleep as sleeping, that would be a pun, and Vexen is not one to make jokes, especially when upset.

Secondly, the First thing Xigbar says to Zexion a little later in that scene is, "I not too good in that place. How 'bout you Mister Zexion?" The room of sleep is not confidential to Xemnas, other Members of the Organization can use it too. It seems, however, it is not as big of a draw to the other members. They can still remember their pasts, though not as vividly as in the room of sleep. Xemnas uses it so much, because he normally can't remember his past at all.

And finally, when Xemnas goes into the room of sleep, he presses something and the room 'turns on,' indicating that it's not just a room with a chair and some armor in it. The markings on the wall are those of a nobody, meaning it was made by or is used for nobodies (or possible both). The room of sleep is not even in TWTNW, but in Hollow Bastion, so it is not just because it is in the Castle that Never was, because it's not.

My guess is that when a nobody is in The Room of sleep, it is almost as if they have a heart. Some would be repulsed by the fact that it is only an illusion, though Xemnas, not remembering how it feels to have a heart (as he stated before that dragon thing comes around during the last boss) would be compelled to make this Room, and use it. Xigbar did say that the room of awakening was the one not built by Xemnas, implying he was the one the build the other one: the Room of Sleep.

Also, I think that he believed the room of Awakening could awaken a nobody's past self for good. I think that Ansem the Wise may have made this room, and I think it is the room with the giant flower thing in Castle Oblivion. He was able to move the thing back to twilight town and seemed to know how it worked. Sora's past self was 'awakened' though that room and Naminé. Xemnas wanted to use Naminé to awaken his past self, explaining why the organization had her in the first place. However, Marluxia betrayed him, and tried to use her to overthrow the organization. After the events of Castle Oblivion, Naminé escaped the clutches of the organization and went on to repair Sora's memory. Being no longer to use the room of awakening, Xemnas came up with his "use Kingdom Hearts" plan.

I know I wrote a lot, but "Birth by Sleep" is an important subject. Comment would be appreciated.

 

Well, remember, Xigbar has come in contact with other keyblade wielders before, so maybe he will have some part in the new game.

Also, more of my theory that Ansem the Wise may be the bald-headed man.



Just looking at the curves and clefts in his face just look so much like the bald headed man.

PLUS, his nose and ears are big and distinctive, just like the bald headed man.

 

Very interesting. Looking at Baldy's expression, I can agree with you.

But Baldy could have paused because he was waiting for Larry's reaction. "Do you see this? Do you see what I'm about to do? Do you?" It was an attack on Larry's moral.

Either way, all this points strongly at there being history between the knights and Baldy. Maybe peaceful history.

I don't know about the curves and the clefts, but a person's nose and ears never stop growing. Nomura grew the those parts large to show how old Baldy and Ansem are.

But here's some fodder for you. If Ansem was really Baldy, and Xehanort was really Larry, then Ansem could have wiped Larry's memories, and influenced Xehanort's choice of scientific experiments. He would have done this because he wanted to discover something only Xehanort/Larry could discover.

Could it be a racial trait? Maybe all of them come from the same world.

Which similarities do you mean?

 

This theory about "Birth by Sleep" is really interesting, and it's very probable those two rooms have sth to do with memories. But why would Aqua and Ven be locked in them ? Or is the image of Aqua's armor just an illusion created by the room, a representation from Xemnas' memories ?

I don't agree with Ansem the Wise being Baldy : the character of Ansem the Wise was fully developed in KH2, and he was shown as a good man who let revenge eat away at his heart. I really don't think he would be this mad scientist type of guy who would plot for decades and play with his apprentice's memories. He said to Xemnas that their researches were meaningless in the end ; his eyes only became yellow after he was exiled by Xehanort ; and KH isn't really the kind of complex story with plot twists and conspiracies all over the place.

About Saïx's and Xigbar's eyes ; they are a consequence of their use of darkness : Xemnas, Xehanort's Heartless, Ansem the Wise and probably Riku (that's why he wore the blindfold) have these same eyes. Their origin is the darkness tainting the heart (notably through use of the corridors off darkness, that's what happened to Ansem).

It's true Roxas' and Riku's outfits have some similarities : the jacket, the long pants partially covering the shoes, the wristband. But I doubt it is really important.

 

That would mean the battle in Birth by Sleep happens between Sora losing his heart, and Axel meeting Roxas.

Hmmmm, I'm not sure... How would you explain Ven/Roxas getting unfrozen? Though his mind was still alive, his body many be impossible (or extremely fricking difficult) to repair. I beleive that they either put his body away until it could be repaired (Room of Sleep) or they sent him on to a new body (reincarnation as Sora). Granted, I'm working off of a completely different timeline than you, where the battle must have happened at least a decade ago, before the events of KH1.

If Birth by Sleep was the final battle of the Keyblade Wars, then it would have happened decades, perhaps centuries in the past. Was it Kairi's grandmother that talked about it?

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RikuNotRikku, I like your Birth by Sleep theory. Your explanation of the "birth" of Xehanort makes a lot of sense. Nobodies sleeping and awakening for their memories opens a lot of possibilities. I have wondered if perhaps the room Sora was in was the Room of Awakening since that was where DiZ and Namine took him to wake up. Also, Organization XIII never found the Room of Awakening, just as they never found the room where Sora was kept. But I don't think Xemnas wanted Namine to help bring his memories back. She's a rare, maybe one time only, case: a heart of a princess of heart, that was hidden in another person's heart, then released by a keyblade; also Namine is like a duplicate of Kairi's body and memories. Kairi's body never went to Castle Oblivion (where Namine woke up). To make my point, Namine's a bit of a freak. (But I love her, I really do.) Understanding the pure unlikelihood of there being another like her before or again, why would the Room of Awakening rely on her? It was created before she was.

Kairi's time with Sora's heart has given Namine access to Sora's heart and memories (and his nobody). She's able to influence other's memories only if they are related to Sora. She never altered the memories of a nobody besides Roxas. I think Xemnas wanted her because she was the catalyst to removing Sora's memories (so that Sora could be controlled). Maybe a catalyst is always needed to alter memories. And memories that are to be returned need the same catalyst that took them away.

I watched the video again, picking up more of the little things you talked about. When Shorty makes to go towards Baldy in the beginning, I thought it was to attack. It may have been to talk. Baldy does wait a long time to throw him off the cliff, but that could have been done for dramatic affect, so that there would be lots of time to show Larry falling and Aqua's reaction. In the zoom from Aqua's viewpoint, where Baldy is holding Shorty by the head, Baldy's expression could be a slight smile or a slight grimace. But it isn't excited like it was earlier. Granted, his expressions had calmed down already, when he froze Larry's arm, before he captured Shorty.

Baldy's expression doesn't seem to hold much tenderness as he freezes Shorty, but as he lets go of the frozen boy, there is some hesitance, especially in the part where Shorty is falling towards the camera. Baldy's arm lingers, and as Shorty first hits the cliff, Baldy's hand clinches into a fist.

I wish I could get screencaps to show off Baldy's expressions.

 

Time for my theories. For easier reference I gave the characters from the secret video in Final Mix 2 that didn't already have names nicknames.

Baldy - The bald guy wearing Xehanort's heartless's clothes that fights the 3 armoured knights.

Spiderman - The red and black Dark Riku looking guy who is created from the copy of Baldy that also fights the 3 knights.

Gay - The tallest of the 3 knights with brown hair who looks like an older Sora. He doesn't have an official name yet from what I know.

Aqua - The girl knight with blue hair. This her official name so yeah.

Ven - The Roxas-look-a-like that Baldy freezes. Tis his official name.


Ok to start off I believe the secret videos take place in the past. Nomura keeps calling it a "new series" and I think it's a series of prequels. The reason is the keyblade war. The first trailer mentions a keyblade war, and the desert they are in looks liek it might have been the battlefeild the war took place in because of all the keyblades. And we know the Keyblade War takes place before KH1 and before Ansem found Xehanort. We know this from what Xigbar said to Zexion in FM2:

"Xigbar: So harsh of you. I just want us to have a little fun talk about, say, Xemnas' secret. How many years ago was it? People with the blade of keys started to appear and fought great battles. When they were gone, a man who had lost his memories appeared. Xemnas... no... Xehanort was taken in by Ansem around that time, was he not?"

Another reason why I think it takes place in the past is Mickey's keyblade. In the trailer, Mickey is weilding the Star Seeker keyblade. But Mickey found the Keyblade from the world of darkness in the first Kingdom Hearts game, the golden keyblade, and he weilds that. We also know that he used to be Yensid's apprentice, thus why he's using the Star Seeker.

As for the carcass Gay is standing on at the beginning of Sunset Horizons, I thik it is connect to the Organization XIII somehow, because it looks like a dead Nobody, and if you looks carefully you can see Xigbar's Ray Gun, Vexen's Sheild, and Larxene's Kunai. Also it appears as though Gay has defeated it, and it vanishes into dust.

When Gay, Aqua, and Ven walk up to the keyblades, you see that they are in crossroads reminesent of the crossraods Sora and Riku both came across, but the crossroads are made from thousands of Keyblades in a desert instead of grass. I beleive this is the same place, only in the past and grass grew over it in time.

When Baldy starts to walk towards the 3, words appear on the screen. "Master of Keyblade" "The Lost Two" "Memory Of Xehanort" "Chasers" and "Keyblade War" and then it says "It all Began With Birth By Sleep"

"Master of Keyblade" obviously means a keyblade master, someone who can weild and use a keyblade. "The lost two" means there are two that are lost. Mickey might possibly be one of these lost two, since you later see him away from the battle scene. The other lost one I think is Xehanort, since this game is supossed to surround Xehanort according to Nomura, and since he went missing and was found by Ansem with no memory. Ansem could also be one of the lost two instead of Mickey. "Memory of Xehanort" has somethign to do with Xehanort's lost memories. They might have something to do with this whole Keyblade War an Baldy and the knights.

Chasers I think might be another type of enemy like Heartless or Nobodies. Heartless are created from a person's heart and Nobodies are the person's body thats left over and has become an empty shell. But what happened to the third part of a person that Ansem mentioned in his reports, the soul? A Chaser might be the persons soul after they are turned into a heartless. It could also be a pill you take after getting drunk.

The Keyblade War is when "People with the blade of keys started to appear and fought great battles." The crossroads appear to be the battlefeild of the Keyblade War maybe a year or two after the war, since the keyblades are rust, but still before KH1. Because it would be a couple of years after the war, so Xehanort would still be real young under Ansem's care at the time, so it's several years before KH1.

"Birth By Sleep" is possibly the awakening keyblade masters go through before they earn their keyblade. The awakening happens in the person's dreams, while they are asleep. Sora went through one in the first KH1, and so did Roxas in KH2. They life as a master of keyblade begins in their sleep, during the awakening. The plot of KH would begin with the very first awakening when the first keyblade master got his keyblade.

In Sunset Horizons Gay picked up the Kingdom Key, Ven picked up the Road To Dawn, and Aqua picks up the Keyblade of Darkness. Possibly these keyblades each represt sent light (Kingdom Key), Darkness(Keyblade of Darkness) and Inbetween (Road to Dawn). Also at the beginning of the seocond trailer, they are no longer weilding these keyblades and are all single weilding again.

Baldy walks towards the 3 knights and a ghost like copy of him appears. This copy then turns into Spiderman, web slinging and all. I believe Spidey here is either a heartless summoned by Baldy, simlar to the way Xehanort has the Guadrian, or a just a copy of Baldy that takes on a different appearance to cause less confusion. Gay appears to be the leader of the knights as how he takes charge in fighting Baldy and attacks first.

Both Baldy and Spiderman appear to be quite skilled in magic as how Baldy manipulates the surroundings into a mountainous area, and both Baldy and Spiderman use blizzard spells alot. Spidey also uses thunder on Gay, tempoarily stunning him. Baldy also has some connection to the keyblades as how he weilds one and can control the thousands of keyblades in the ground forming them into a tornado. Baldy also creates a ball of dark energy later on which he uses to reveal Kingdom Hearts. They are both also quite talented physically, baldy being able to fight easily against Gay, and Spidey being able to fight some pyshically also and being able to surf the keyblade tornado Baldy made. Baldy also has some control over the weather as how he made the sky dark and cloudy and also parted the coulds later on.

Gay and Ven both appear to be talented in pyshcal fighting, with Gay being the stronger of the two. Aqua appears to be more skilled in magic and she cast reflect a few times in the battle and also uses a thunder spell. There seems to be a little Aqua x Ven relationship going on as how Ven rushes over to Aqua' side when she's knocked down, and they lock eyes when Ven is in Baldy's grasp. Aqua is also the one most worried when Ven is frozen. Ven is still alive though cause he is still moving his eyes.

Baldy has to have some connection with Xehanort because they wear the exact same outfit. Perharps Baldy is Xehanorts father or grandfather. Baldy could also be Xehanort's former master before he lost his memory. Baldy also looks like an old monkey, perhaps related to Cranky Kong.

Gay looks a lot like an older Sora. Perhaps he is Sora's father, and Sora became a keyblade master like his father used to be. Also when Kingdom Hearts appears, his eyes change from blue to yellow. Perhaps Kingdom Hearts has some affect on his that gives him different powers, or causes some type of transformation, or makes him go insane.

Aqua looks a lot like Ienzo/Zexion, and at first I thought she was Ienzo before I realized she has boobs. She also looks similar to Kairi, possibly some connection to her. She also appears to have something going on with Ven.

Ven looks exactally like Roxas, so I expect them to be connected somehow. I dunno how though. And his keyblade broke.

Also I belive Zexion is related to this somehow, except still Ienzo back then. I don't know why, but I just think this. Him and his book.

Xemnas has to have somethign to do with this, because he is seen with Boobs' armour and keyblade in his hidden room, and he says "It has been a long time my friend."

Also Xigbar is in someway related, cause at one point I read that Nomura said something along the lines of "Xigbar has somethign to do with this" I don't think those were the exact words though. Xigbar's ray gun was on the slain creature thing in Sunset Horizns, and when I read about Xigbar having somethign to do with it, I thought of what he said before fighting Sora. "You don't look like half the hero the others were." I think Xigbar, still Braig back then, knew the past keyblade masters, or at least some of them (possibly he knew Gay, Ven, and Aqua?).

That's all I have for now my brain fired.

 

A lot of people have been calling the tallest knight Larry or E.S. We don't know for sure that Aqua and Ven are the names of the other knights. The E.S. could have been refering to places, things, or other people when he spoke to Sora. I've been calling them Aqua and Ven too, but don't say it's "official".

Interesting. Could this be a clue to the pasts of some of the characters? Since this happened before Xehanort became a heartless, and before the Organization was created, maybe this is a Nobody creature that they later got their weapons from.

Why would a Nobody that big exist? Could it be the Nobody of a World?

But Roxas was a keyblade master before he started dreaming of Sora. I agree with you that Sora's dreams were an awakening that brought him into being a keyblade master. Perhaps "Birth by Sleep" can be used for several things. Awakening to be a keyblade master, awakening to memories lost. It's a process, maybe an old one.

I agree that Spidey is either a heartless or just a copy.

You surmised the skills of each of the characters well; this would be helpful for anyone who tried to do character analysis of them.

Please excuse this moment: Aqua x Ven = Love! :D

RikuNotRikku suggested that Baldy might be Ven's teacher, since there's subtle hesitance when he freezes Ven. At the beginning of the battle, when Larry holds Ven back, it's possible Ven may have wanted to talk to Baldy, not attack.

Perhaps Baldy was the teacher for all three of them.

Perhaps the most fustrating thing is trying to connect the current KH characters to the Sunset Horizons characters. It's all linked, but HOW?

 

I still say the bald headed gentleman has a connection the Ansem the Wise (I refuse to call him DiZ).

Yes, Ansem became a good man, but he said it himself, he was set for revenge. Which kind of makes me think maybe the guy who's eyes change may be related to Ansem the Wise as well.

Who said a man of evil could not reform himself and become someone who sides on the power of good?

 

Ksemanr, that is one of the greatest theories I ahve ever read.

But Ven is still alive, so he could be Roxas.

I also have a theory that Roxas might not be Sora's nobody.

 

The trailer is in the future.. Mickey just got the keyblade in the first game.. Nomura has already confirmed this.. He does have a way with words though..;)

If you remember at the end? Mickey holding the Star Seeker.. Which.. Is a keyblade..

Kota--

 

Yes he was hell bent on revenge to the point of becoming ruthless ; but what he wanted revenge for was Xehanort's betrayal. In KH2 we see Ansem the Wise before and after Xehanort's betrayal : he hasn't changed at all, except for those yellow eyes, which probably come from excessive use of the corridors of darkness. When would you set his time as Baldy ?

As for Ksemanr's theory, it is indeed a good one. I especially agree with "Birth by Sleep" being a future keyblade master's trials on the Station of Serenity. And yes, Roxas was already a keyblade master, but had to do it again since he forgot about it.

To me, Larry (or Gay as you call him) looks more like a younger Xehanort than like an older Sora. But it's true there could also be a similarity between him and Sora (after all, it looks like he's the hero).

"Memory of Xehanort" most probably refers to the memories he lost before ending up in Radiant Garden, memories of the keyblade war.

I believe that Sunset Horizons (the secret ending of KH2) happens in the future, whereas Fate of the Unknown (the secret ending of KH2FM) happens in the past. Why such a difference ? Because in the first, they pick up Riku's, Sora's and Mickey's keyblades, and in the second there is not a trace of those keyblades. For more developments, see my topic (http://www.kh-vids.net/showthread.php?t=9945), section "Tales of Future Past".

When and where did Nomura make such a statement ? And Mickey could perfectly have obtained the keyblade before the first game : he already had a keyblade when he visited Ansem the Wise in Radiant Garden, before Xehanort became a Heartless.

 

I don't know where Nomura made that statement. But, I think all of this is slowly fitting together..

 

couldn't it be that after xehanort became a heartless and left ansem, he met baldy and then learning from him about kingdom hearts and using the powers of darkness! And then getting his clothes if he supposedly dies after.

 

Okay, in that case it would make sense that Roxas has to go through the trails again.

I agree that Larry seems more connected to Xehanort than Sora. Aside from the magazine scan (what happened to that scene, anyway?), Larry doesn't look anything like Sora.

Do any of the the knights share moves or attacks that the main characters of Kingdom Hearts use?

I kind of like that idea. So here's what the timeline would be:

1. Xehanort, minus memories, is taken in by Ansem.

2. Xehanort becomes a heartless, and Radiant Garden becomes Hallow Bastion.

3. Anytime before number 4, could be before, after, or during numbers 1 and 2, Baldy and the knights fight. We'll assume that Baldy wins, and that what he summoned was an incomplete Kingdom Hearts.

4. Xehanort's heartless meets Baldy.

5. Baldy teaches XH's about Kingdom Hearts, and more about the powers of darkness than XH already knows.

6. XH starts wearing Baldy's clothes, maybe because Baldy died.

7. XH goes off to create a true Kingdom Hearts, and KH1 begins.

Under this scenario, Larry and Xehanort wouldn't be the same person.

 

The knights share their keyblade master status and spells with the KH main characters. I think that they are, in a way, their predecessors as heroes, and that Kairi, Sora and Riku will grow into the same role. In fact I believe the keyblade war will repeat itself, and that Sunset Horizons happens in the future (the three knights from Sunset Horizons being Sora, Riku and Kairi).

 

I've read your theory, the whole thing, and it's very feasible and makes a lot of sense. When you pointed out that Sunset Horizons and Fate of the Unknown could be future and past, it blasted my mind to another level. It makes so much sense, and yet it's hidden so well.

I can see how the knights would be the predecessors of Kairi, Riku, and Sora. Nomura said there was a special reason Riku was able to give Kairi a keyblade. Maybe it's because she's destined for one.

But what I don't understand, is why does Ven look like Roxas?

If the keyblade war is going to repeat itself, and with all these parallels it seems very likely, then perhaps the next game will explain the Keyblade War of past. The one after may be the Keyblade War of future.