Bloody Sunday

For the American thing I was actually referring to more recent times when the Troubles were starting to peter out and the trials begun. Known murderers who had fled to America to escape justice were protected by the American government i.e. denying justice to the families of those whom they had murdered.

CtR makes the strong point of moving on. Most people who are "fighting" today are only doing so because their parents tell them to. They have been brought up to believe that the other side are their mortal enemies and that they have to hate them till the end of time. That ain't going to do very much for the rest of us who just want to get on with our lives.

As for whether I want to stay with the UK or re-join Ireland I would actually want Northern Ireland to become a country in its own right xD But the UK would definitely be my second choice.

 

Kay you misunderstood me completely.I said that me and my friends would like to get the b*stards who caused the carnage in the first place.I feel that i this case all of those soldiers deserve to die and i'm not the kind of person to say this kind of stuff.I used to say "whats in the past is in the past but after i actually saw it my view changed completely.

 

I think that if anything ireland deserves to be complete.I believe like De Valera,Collins,Griffith and so much more that we irish deserve a complete and whole Ireland.Besides there still a catholic majority in the north(i looked it up) If they tried to become a new country IRA would flame up again which means the UDA would flame up again which would mean total termoil.

The point is to get my anger out and my sense of justice heard.

 

No i don't want a flame war i want a debate. theres a differance.

 

So you would just boot out the large number of people who want to stay part of the United Kingdom? Also, the only reason catholics outnumber protestants is the lack of contraception i.e. breeding like rabbits.

I dislike the fact that you couple being catholic with being republican. They are not the same thing =/ There are catholics who happen to be republican but there are also protestant republicans and catholic unionists. Such generalisations just fuel the conflict even more and to be honest the people of Northern Ireland just want to move on.

 

I never said boot the prod's out but that ireland should be complete even if that means that the prod's stay.I'm trying to keep a level head but saying snide comments isn't helping.thats uncalled for.Catholics don't breed like rabbits.

To be catholic is not to be patriotic.To be patriotic is pride in the country.On top of that i'm not catholic but patriotic not to the idiotic sense of going to war for it or killing for it but through my sense of justice and pride in the people who allow me to sit here voicing my views and not live in a world where black and tans break down my door and take me away for no reason.Don't misunderstand me again now when i said my people i meant the people of my country not that we are of the same beliefs.
I still feel that even though i'm of different beliefs they are still the people of my country and to see them slaughtered ruthlessly without a regard for there life makes me angry beyond compare.

For your last comments, what do the people of the north want to move on from; the violence or the past because i'm thinking it's the violence.The thing is that you haven't seen the broader picture bunterx.Bloody Sunday wasn't one occurance,it was many.You think that i'm angry about just that well your wrong.The amount of pain that the british people have inflicted on ireland is irreplacable in the hearts and minds of the irish.As long as there is human will there will be war,pain and death but at the same time it allows people to stand against it.Just because the north are ready to forget about the deaths of all the people of the other counties outside of the north doesn't mean that the republic are ready to forget.I lost 4 of my great grandparents to the black and tans, who would've been young enough to be here if the weren't killed.I know someone who's grandfather was from the origanal IRA, the one that fought for the freedom of us all and died thanks to the black and tans.The word black and tans enrages him.Someone called his grandfather a black and tan and guess what...the fella ended up in the hospital and we had to weigh him down from doing more damage.

We have suffered countless losses thanks to the northern,british and loyalist soldiers.How many people have died over in the north because of the IRA? A decimal of a percentage in comparison to the losses of the republic.

I'd just like to point out one more thing... you say that each side has done there wrongs and that we should move on, that from my perception you think that all should be forgotten because it's in the past but thats not what you really think is it? You said stuff like "Britian won and thats it" and "catholics breed like rabbits". You feel just as much as i do about the catholics that you do about protestants you just don't make it obvious to everyone.

Just before you try to something about this, i have nothing against citizens of the north or britian or anything like that but it's embodiment in the form of a monarchy and an establishment that inflicted so much pain upon my ancestors,never said anything about it and refuse to recognize the pain which has been caused.Had they ever thought that maybe....just maybe that by recognizing what has been done and possibly saying that they were in the worng for all of it that the sectarian attacks on both sides,the constant contraversy and the prejudice would possibly cease????
You might think of this as menial and irrelevant but thats whats on the mind of irish extremists who feel a sense of unjustice that everything was forgotten about even though there was a tremendous amount of pain inflicted on our ancestors.This is why they go looking for there own justice in the form of the IRA and irish extremism.

I just pulled a repliku.

 

To begin with, Catholics do not believe in contraception therefore their birth rates will be higher.

Secondly, during the Troubles it was war. Literally. The rules that apply now cannot be applied to back then. The IRA declared war on the UK and they got the response that that declaration warranted. Also, do you really think I am ignorant enough not to know about the other attacks during the Troubles? The attacks on mainland Britain, the civilians killed for being informants by their own side whether they did or not? And yes the black and tans were notorious, but how else is a government to attack an invisible enemy? An enemy aided and protected by republicans who went out of their way to make life difficult by the government of their country.

I also resent the fact that you think I want to dismiss the lives of all those who died (on both sides) and move on. If we forget about the past we are doomed to repeat it, but if we keep dragging it up and living like the past is the present we will never escape its grasp. So no, I don't want to ignore the countless deaths, but I don't want to live my life thinking about of these people who I would never have known.

The north will remain with the UK indefinitely, any more fighting will just result in more pain and suffering which will be completely in vain and to be honest rather selfish. Many people don't agree with what the paramilitaries are doing (a rather large percentage I believe, considering the amount of public outrage there is whenever a new attack happens) so most actions by paramilitary groups are done out of their own self-interests.

One final point I would like to make is that you assume all of the black and tan squads were working under orders. Ever thought that they may have been driven by bias in their actions?

 

You don't get it do you.If you think that we should move on so easily from a history of death at the hands of the british then your more naive than i thought.Millions slaughtered and yet britian and the north want to move on.It's just the violence they don't want because they know that the IRA target everyone and everything.I understand this is unfair and uncalled for but thats what people are afraid of and thats the only reason they want to move on.

I also notice you try to justify the attacks by the british and the north by saying "the IRA took innocent lives" well the british did that infinit fold.One thing i left out here was the fact the the name bloody sunday came from the another event not too many years previous when micheal Collins killed black and tan members in there hotels in retaliation for hunting him and trying to kill him and his squad.The british retaliated by opening fire iduring a hurling match killing thirteen people including a famous player.Innocent lives for the lives of murderers...what a fair trade.

I've got an instance from my own town.Two innocent people who were talking in irish and a group of black and tans got angry for they couldn't understand the language so...they killed them and beheaded them,putting there heads on spikes near the old castle for everyone including there family to see.Do you think that you could justify that by saying the "IRA attacked innocent people"? Do you think that subjecting the families of those people to such mental torment and torture,Leaving scars on there children for the rest of there days is right?

You know that the IRA were disbanded up until Bloody sunday of 1971,then when elite paratroopers pulled in and shot whatever they saw then...thats when the IRA were back.So it isn't on our heads it on the soldiers heads,the soldiers who slaughtered innocent people and enjoyed every second of it, it on there heads and there for on the british governments heads the provisional IRA were back not any irish person.

I was watching "Some mothers Son" which is based around the hunger strike of bobby sands in the north.Ten had to die of hunger before the government gave into there request to becoming political prisoners,just to have their normal clothes...something as menial as that, the government wouldn't give it to them.In fact many of the women who went to protest got piss thrown into their faces...just for protesting for there sons or friends who were in there for some menial reason to get normal clothes.The one thing i did notice is that two prison officers of the prison were killed infront of there home by IRA...but guess what they'd been saying before...that the people of the protest were "terrorists" infront of everyone.They didn't care if the protesters in the prison died at all.

The government to this day is still trying to gerrymander to this day,trying to favourite the protestants but the only differance this time is sinn Féin is there with alot of seats which the catholics favour.

Britian began something and the IRA want to finish it but the one thing is that what is happening today is because of that faithful day in the north where the paratroopers all opened fire.

what i've noticed is despite how you protest and try to justify the british and north, you have small posts and i know why.Because you have nothing really legitimate to argue.The deaths you speak of are from the omagh Bombing but a fact you don't take into account is that people might be almost certain it was IRA, there is no solid evidence that says it's IRA except the fact that they hate protestants,that was it.Along with the fact that there were catholics were there aswell.Do you thnk that IRA would at catholics...i don't think so.IRA are people like anyone else who wouldn't kill catholics.if they did they would get killed by someone within the organisation themselves.I researched newspapers and some of my grandparents have an old code book from the original IRA which the current provisionals follow,for this in case you say that i'm talking bullsh*t.

No matter what you reply you can't say lets move one or justify what they did because you can't.The reason the IRA attack people is because of what happened at bloody sunday.They were disbanded until the paratroopers opened fire.

Just an interesting fact for your ecknowledgment the paratroopers i mentioned i had only just figured out today.Paratroopers are the elite,people who are trained to kill.They were even armed with M4 customs,and machine guns.Why would they put people like that to control a march...hmmm?I think you know the answer without me pointing it out.

Just in case you seem to think that i'm promoting the IRA i'm not.I'm simply saying that the reason they were formed and the reason they reformed was because of the british not because they decided to have a laugh killing protestants,which compared to the black and tans and former british army is pretty tame because black and tans and former britsh army would laugh and joke about the family suffering and the pain of the person they killed.They talked about them like their trophies.The senior members of the IRA are people who have felt the brutality of black and tans or even brutality from the british army.Most have seen friends and family killed by the british.I do not say these things as a justification for the IRA but to show you that the organisation wasn't formed out of thin air for no reason and to give you a perspective of these people in comparison to the army and black and tans.

I pulled another Repliku.

 

Okay.

First, chill man....these are serious issues, but someone else's opinion doesn't mean they or you are right or wrong. Just...............chill.

It was wrong, but humanity isn't perfect. Unfortuantely, we seem find out we aren't perfect at the cost of other lives, but that seems to be the way life goes. Not to be heartless, but these people that died would have died in another form, sooner or later. It IS wrong they died this way, I know that, and I totally agree, but because they died, this sorta thing is going to be prevented from happening again, hopefully. If you want to focus on disasters, this isn't the only one. 9/11, what's happening in Tibet, the Berlin Wall, World War II, The Boston Massacre. Lots of things have happened like Bloody Sunday, but as we weren't there, who can say who is right or wrong at this point? History has a problem of being recorded by the winners.