Believe what you want, you are allowed your beliefs in peace.

Or are you, really?

Is it right to allow people who believe in a deity to do so? At the moment, we see no proof except the word of a few people. These people are dead and gone, their words preserved in a book. Is it right to let people go on believing?

If they were a two year old, who was insistent that the world was a giant triangle, people would correct him. He would not be allowed to believe this, because there is no evidence to support the claim.

What's more, the Church has power. The Church gets to have a say about cloning. The Church has millions of followers everywhere, but all they have in common is the same imaginary friend.

We are all against suicide. Yes, I said it. But religious cults are notorious for mass suicide. Now, Christianity is but a giant cult. Is it really right for one old man to have so much power?

Consider this. I see no reason to let people believe.

 

Of course they have a right. But at the same time you might say they don't. After all, rights don't really exist at all.

 

We all have rights to believe what we want...people just can't prove if our beliefs are right or not. But, how believers see it they believe that what they follow is correct.
Nobody can actually force people out of their religion.

 

People use religion as a form of explaination,a comfort and a way in there lifes.It's an illusion people use to help them go through life but at the same time religion causes so much pain.It causes division and in turn cause disagreement,fighting and war.World War II is one such example of what i'm saying.

If people want this illusion or for a better word dellusion, then we should allow them this.
Religions talks about freedom when infact they control people through a form of illusion that most people feel like they're protected.

 

Your giant triangle argument is not valid. We have evidence that contradicts it, whereas there is no evidence that contradicts any form of a god.

Also, you seem to only address Christianity as if it were the only religion. What about Islam? Judaism? Buddhism? Hinduism? Sikhism? Must I go on? Anyway, if the Church really was just a cult used for mass suicide don't you think that they would have done it by now? Not to mention that if they did only a small percentage of the followers would do it (the extremists).

Also, how is it "not right" to believe in a religion? It gives hope, helps enforce justice (though extremists from all religions are starting to ruin this aspect), and can make people have a better outlook on life. I don't see anything wrong with believing in a religion at all.

 

your words present a grim future.....


im with you on the fact that the catholic church changed things to their will.

but not letting people believe...do you really know what this imply's?


the triangle example isnt the best one to give, because we KNOW the world is round it has been proven , but we can and cannot deny the existance of a God ,because we really cant say its not real.

but most people take religion as a tradicional thing.

 

Rights are what a society deems that people in it are entitled to. Otherwise there really are no such thing at all as rights. Rights also can be taken away or given within any sort of power structure. We've definitely in history been able to see that rights are actually more equated to 'fancy privileges' for members of a society. Really, in the end, we probably should just call them privileges instead because they don't mean anything more and the only thing that makes them 'rights' is that people fought for them to be held stronger so that they can't just slip away so easily.

As for religion in that view...throughout history again, people have been persecuted for believing in a religion or not believing in any. All religions in my view are just glorified cults that society has deemed is appropriate in that area to have. There is only one difference between a cult and a religion and that is a cult is not accepted by the majority of the society. My apologies to those I offend but it is a personal view and not intended to disassociate people based on their views. In the end, if people believe in religions, it certainly doesn't mean I would say they aren't friends. We can agree or disagree with what friends and family members think but it doesn't mean we have to hate them. We can certainly love them for other qualities.

Should religion be banned though because some people (including myself) see it as people believing in imaginary friends that they can get stuff from, blame their problems on, blame their good fortune on, blame every natural disaster on, etc? No, I don't believe so. Where do we draw the line on our creativity? If religions are banned, it would be plausible to also ban role-playing games, cosplay, novelists and artists from creating works of art, children from having imaginary friends, etc. Though religions have definitely tried to ban all sorts of things from works of art, books, role-playing games, sexual things they feel are inappropriate, children's creativity and imagination, etc, they have failed to utterly do so. I believe that banning religion just because some feel it is fake and a crutch, as well as something that messes up many people's lives is just not going to happen either. I don't think it would be fair to do so. Religions even try to wipe out each other all the time and reduce other religions to cult status constantly, but in the end, our minds will continue to create, whether positively or negatively.

However, there are some things I will say that I do not feel should be tolerated, and yet they are. If a person dressed up like a vampire and mauled someone because their 'RP' went too far, we'd arrest them without a doubt and lock them up for mental rehabilitation. If a child talks to an imaginary friend at school and such, that kid gets mocked the hell out of and parents become embarrassed and the kid may even have to go to therapy. If someone is cosplaying and wears clothes that are indecent or does it all of the time, people may have that person admitted or they may run into legal trouble or be beaten up. If someone doesn't want to do 'missionary' style and wants to do other things or a woman is promiscuous they are labeled all sorts of names unjustly and some people will try to mess with them awfully. Video games, fantasy and sci-fi things often are labeled very badly and some feel Harry Potter is the devil's work.

Now if someone is put in jail or mental rehab, religion is often a way they can get out early, even if their crimes were religious spurned in nature. The way to rehabilitate people off drugs is to use a 12 step program that incorporates religion in it, despite the fact only 10% at -most- ever fully heal from using it and most people who do recover by other means say they did it by willpower and the thought that their lives could be better and actually mean something. Religion shouldn't replace willpower and self-esteem. Charities are given to lesser fortunate people and religion surrounds the 'good deed' making it not so charitable after all. You shouldn't need to read the Bible or attend a religious class to change your viewpoints to get an inoculation or a bowl of rice. People can go about knocking on people's doors and harassing them to join their religion and also make big money off religions and think that because they are delivering the word of God that they have a right to bother people because they are actually out 'saving' people.

These are all wrong to me. Religion, just like role-playing, cosplaying, having an imaginary friend etc, is a personal choice. If someone wants to believe in a deity, that's fine by me but they should keep it to themselves and find other -like- people to share it with, just like role-players and gamers go and find similar people to themselves to hang out with and share good times. Soliciting is still soliciting whether it is for a religion or not. It should be illegal. I should also not get weird pamphlets on my door or in my mailbox -ever- that some religious nut put there, avoiding paying for a thing, and find it just as rude as when someone puts a food business flier on my door and doesn't pay for postage etc to mail me it. I can take one to court. I can't take the religious one to court because then I get asked 'why am I so offended?' and told it's their right to spread the word. I also don't think religions should get tax write-offs above being considered corporations that are 'not for profit'. People -are- giving them money and not all of it is going to charity or maintaining the church itself. Not-for-profit organizations get their members paid but with income that is reasonable. Religions to me are big corporations or small businesses based on the size and affiliation. They should be treated as such. Corps all the time do work for others. They aren't getting as many free handouts and why? They don't merit them. Attach the word 'God' to it and suddenly a group gets whatever they want.

In the end, I think that religion in itself doesn't have to be a bad thing and I don't think it should be eliminated by force by any means. Some groups of religions have toned down dramatically and aren't so much a harm and I can even walk in believing as I do and no one discriminates me there. I sang for a choir for a Catholic church to help out and no one bugged me at all. Others like the Evangelical movement, I see as being more powerful at this time to the point their 'votes count'. Just because they try to suffocate out other things doesn't mean others should do the same to them. They have failed and those of us who don't believe in religion would also fail. However, I think there needs to be a defining line that is made to say what is allowed and not allowed for religious orders and groups to do, whether cults or big established religions. If charity is done, it should be wholesome and benevolent and without the goal of converting people to their religions. If soliciting is done, these people should be able to be taken away by cops and given orders to not carry out such acts anymore. If someone is in prison, good behavior should not mean finding a God. It should mean that the person is actually a changed person with values that will let him/her live in society with all people and others don't have to fear a relapse. Fanatics/zealots should get treated like other fascists that do things to harm people and put away if they steal, pillage, rape, kill etc. And people who are delusional and use God as a reason to do something heinous should be institutionalized the same way as a role-player that goes mad. The 10 Commandments idiots that want to put them in schools and courts or nutjobs that want to rewrite our Constitution to put 'God' in it like Huckabee should be treated the same way they treat kids with imaginary friends.

Respecting the fact that not everyone feels as you do is a keen thing to learn so that we -all- have the rights to be -ourselves- and yet helpful in society. If people could keep their religion or lack of religion to themselves the world would be a far better place. We'd actually start to realize people are more than just if they believe in something or not. We have many facets to our natures and banning religion to me is no better than when religions have killed non-believers and labeled people as heretics. In the end there is no way to prove whether God exists or not anymore than the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It doesn't give a reason to eliminate religion, nor does it give a reason for religion to dominate over people's lives who don't want it. Either side could be right. Either one could be wrong. Both could be wrong. You take a chance either way and it's a personal decision to do that, regardless of what rights exist at any given time.

 

Well to me it's depending what you say really, like when you said "The worlds a triangle" part, they obviously need to be told thats its a sphere, it's the only way they're going to learn... for the church part... that's pretty much incorrect, the church is losing their power not gaining it. A lot of people are not christian and for those who are.. 90% of them were baptised so they can't help it. It doesn't mean they have to believe what the church says. I haven't gone to church since I was 7... and it was the WRONG one. I actually believe in re-incarnation more than going to heaven [ that much fun would be boring and there would be so many souls ya know.... ]. There are so many cultures and beliefs out there and the church isn't going to be able to control them

 

I pretty much agree with everything that Repliku just said (yes, I read it all ;D). No matter how illogical or just plain stupid I think religious belief is it is still an individuals right (or as Repliku put it, privilege) to waste their time and money on it. My problem comes through when it goes from individual to group. I don't want to hear "the good word". I don't want flyer's through my door, in my library books and bus depots. I want to live my own life with my own set of "beliefs" separate to everyone else's. Religious people should have the same respect for other people. Apparently they do not.

There should also be no public funding for any religious organisations. That would be implying that the government (and by extension, the population) are supporting the said religion when most civilised countries are Secular. Instead, people are still able to play the religious trump card and in some cases even get away with murder.

There should be no more conversion. No more infant baptisms, or any other religious rituals involving children who have not reached the age to make decisions for themselves. Let people decide on their own what they want. Don't harass them, don't force them to lead a life they might not necessarily want because they were indoctrinated as a child (this is the think that sickens me about religion the most, the outrageous levels of child abuse which go completely unnoticed across the world even today).

 

this is no fun, once repliku speaks with his gigantic essays, there really isnt much more to say...XD.

oh repliku and his essays....*sigh*


anyways

i really dont think fundraising should not be done.

i know most of it is for converting ect, but most of it goes for charity work too.


but back into the topic.


taking belief from people is one of the worst things one can do.


of course some extremists , just get on your nerves and push you to conversion.

but people need to have choice(wich includes beliefs)once you take away their beliefs, people will feel forced.

but really if people believe in something, we need to accept it, wether it be religion, or some kind of occidental teaching, or a cult, as long as they dont break laws.

im sure that if you believed in something, you wouldnt want it to be taken away, no matter how ridiculous it is, nor would you like people forcing you into a change that isnt genuine.

 

But I'm not saying take it away from them, I am saying that they should keep it to themselves. Most other people really don't want to hear about their beliefs. If they did, they are perfectly capable of researching and finding out for themselves.

As I said, people can waste their time on whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect anyone else around them. But, if someone came up to me spouting what I consider to be religious nonsense they would get a metaphorical backhand and be told were they can put their "faith" >_>

 

This is kind of off-topic, but I have a real problem with atheists. They seem to believe it is their duty to prove the religions of others wrong. I don't understand the satisfaction of tearing a person's perfectly reasonable beliefs to pieces. I suppose religious people have a tendency to do this, as well, but I've especially noticed it in atheists.
Bunterx, if someone told you of your beliefs, you would then reject them and treat them with utter disrespect? That's ridiculous. There's a little thing called "free speech". If you don't feel the same way they do, that's your problem. Not theirs. Why go to an effing computer when there's 2 billion people around you to explain it? Sure, a computer would be more neutral, but you'd get the same eventual result, if with a different impression.

 

It is not that I completely reject and shun them, it is that I do not wish to have other peoples religious beliefs shoved down my throat on a regular basis. Trust me, I have a lot of friends who are Christian, both Protestant and Catholic. They are still my friends. But we don't talk about our beliefs (lol except when drunk, then everything gets talked about xD). Beliefs are something that should be private and individual.

Also, the concept of free speech is a dodgy one at best. There are many ideas that should not be tolerated or allowed to be talked about. Many of the core beliefs of the British Nationalist Party (Which draws many parallels to the Nazi party, it even has a youth division) are illegal and considered to be highly immoral by most of sane and civilised society. And yet they are allowed to spread their poison under the pretence of free speech.
Human rights are another thing, but that is off topic and therefore will not be discussed.

Basically, my point is that we all have our own lives. We should be allowed to live them our own way without constant and unwanted influences from people who have a holier-than-thou attitude and think that their god is the real one.

As for Atheists wanting to prove every ones beliefs wrong, that is not it at all or at least is looking at it from completely the wrong perspective. Atheists search for truth. Many use science to search for truth. The search for truth often illuminates mis-truths or downright lies. If Christians are allowed to evangelise, should Atheists not be allowed to do the same? I also hate seeing human potential and time being wasted on something I consider to be pointless. I personally would like to think people would be intelligent enough to spot the never-ending hypocrisies of religion. It pains me to see perfectly intelligent and sane people (there are plenty in my school, many of them top achievers) following a belief which was forced upon them as children and are unable to escape it.

 

I don't have a holier-than-thou attitude. I could escape Christianity if I wanted to; I've thought about it. But do you know why I won't? Because I see truth in it. A sort of truth that atheists seem to be incapable of seeing.
Also, Nazism is rejected because everything about it is wrong. Not everything about the Church is wrong. It promotes peace and acceptance between people, it promotes better lifestyles, etc.

Beliefs should not always be private and personal. If that were the case, then we would never have accomplished anything as humans.

You also imply that religion is a complete mistruth. That may be your belief, but you cannot treat that as though everyone believes that.

 

I did not say that you did. I meant the people who are close-minded, stubborn and utterly ignorant of anything but their own belief. People whose minds have been hopelessly darkened by their beliefs.
I also never said everything about the Church is wrong. I only used the BNP as an example of when free speech is not necessarily a good thing.

As you say, religion can be good. But more often than not (and all you have to do is look back through history to see it) it causes more harm than good. Causes more problems than it solves. How can a religion that supposedly promotes peace and acceptance among people allow wars in its name? How come Catholics believe that anyone who is not Catholic will burn in hell for all eternity, just because they aren't Catholic?

Most of the good supposedly done by "the Church" was done by the people in the Church, not by any sort of willing of the organisation. These people end up forgotten or their successes and achievements are attributed to god and not to them. I see this as a complete tragedy, that the good will and honest labour of good people is superseded by a so-called "higher being".

Also, how would be not have accomplished anything as humans if we kept our religious beliefs to ourselves? I never said beliefs in general and if that is the way it came across in my post then I am sorry for the confusion. The way you say that is as if religious beliefs are responsible for every achievement in human history, when that is far from the case.

When did I ever say that I think that everyone believes religion to be a complete mis-truth? When did I even say that myself? There are some aspects of religion that are true. A well put together moral code can never be a bad thing. But that does not mean it requires religion to exist. Also, religious texts (such as the Bible, the Koran, Quran etc) taken as just pieces of literature are amazing works. If anything, religious undertones take away from the work itself.

All I see when I look at religion is a bunch of repeating hypocrisies, a mental crutch for those who need something/someone to blame their problems on and a method of controlling others. I don't want any part of it.

I would appreciate it if my words were not taken out of context and twisted, thank you.

 

It is a choice, you can not have the right to believe in something, because every human has to believe in something, it is natural and not something you can control through law or force, for years people have died in what they believe in, you can not force someone into church, neither can you force them to believe all science's theories.
Relegion doesn't have the answers, but neither does science, both are human creation, both are flawed concepts, in the end Science and relegion will never give us the answers. But isn't that the point in faith?
That we do not know the answers, but we are willing to believe in something? Relegion and science have both fed people false information over the years. Only 5% of Science is fact, the rest is hypothesises, yet it attracts many people, while Relegion only has a relegious book, yet that is all it has to sway people down the path of belief.
Science can be as bad as a relegious group, don't think that because maybe I believe in a God, that i'm a Bible licker or I think i'm better than tohers, relegion doesn't do that to people, people do that to people.

Kick relegion when it's down and out won't ya! XD

 

I just thought the manner in which you said this was implicative of a certain smugness. I apologize if I was mistaken.

The Catholic belief that people who aren't Catholic will burn is an outdated belief that is more commonplace in the ministries of extremists than cathedrals. It is not a belief that I profess.

I interpreted this as beliefs in general.

I would really rather that we kept hostilities out of this argument, please.

 

Exactly my intentions.

From growing up in a country torn by fighting between Protestants and Catholics I know what religion can do to people. Religion is one of the few things that can make a good person do bad things. I suppose that my views and opinions are more than likely tainted from my upbringing. I was not taken to church as my parents wanted me to have the freedom to decide for myself what to belief, rather than forcing it down my throat as it was to them when they were growing up. I decided for myself, with all the evidence available from what I had seen, read and heard that religion was a bunch of nonsense. I made my own mind up and am very grateful to my parents of giving me that choice, many children aren't.

I personally believe that human beings should believe in whatever is right, not what looks and feels nice. Religion is something for people to fall back on when their life isn't going the way they would like. But I want people to be strong enough to not to have to rely on the thought that some all knowing, all powerful being is looking out for them.

 

I can understand if you do have a problem with Atheists. However, what you said about feeling the same way others do... atheists aren't trying to take religion away. Many atheists have several friends of religious core beliefs etc. The reason we bring up things is purely because some of your more radical religious followers attempt to force religion and some of us are saying no outright because why should we have to take it anymore?

You mention freedom of speech. For hundreds of years people have been held oppressed by held down by religion, whether you want to believe that or not. People to this day still call those who do not believe in God as anarchists, heretics, heathens, pagans etc. Atheist means - no god. It does not mean 'I hate Christians'. I get -very- tired of explaining what an atheist is to some preset minded Christians because they have been preprogrammed that we are evil things created by Satan to change them from their devoted holy paths.

For every insult that Atheists give out there are at least 20 that they have received from radical Christians or some other zealot group of religious nuts, because non-religious people don't just live in America and the U.K. There are many people, religious or not religious from all over that can manage to get along because...they aren't pushing it anyone's face. Why? They don't -fear- or -hate- other people's religious views because otherwise the people are decent people and we find similarities in them to ourselves. Religion is -not- all that makes a person what they are. It never has been that way and it never will. Every Christian is not the same. Every Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Atheist etc is not the same. If we were the same we'd all get along better, wouldn't we? Why things get fought that Christians have put forth? Well here are a few reasons:

- Taking our Constitution and putting 'God' more in it. - The Evangelical Protestant goal of Huckabee and several religious followers of that group that is bordering fascism.

- Taking our Pledge of Allegiance and putting 'Under God' in it. The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a religious man and he left it out for respect to ALL citizens. The man even wanted to put in a clause that stated all people are created equal. No, instead they honor Christians only by putting 'Under God' in it. That was apparently more righteous to do than recognizing blacks, Native Americans, other foreign people etc.

- The President and Evangelical Protestant leaders declaring that Atheists should not be citizens of the U.S. When did we become Hitlerized?

- Trying to post the 10 Commandments in public schools where children of ANY religion may be learning. School is for learning to survive in this day and age and getting an education. Church is for religion. If Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, Agnostics, Atheists etc can all understand this concept, why can't some Christians get it?

- Stealing and burning Harry Potter books. Going to funerals of fallen soldiers or gay people and picketing and not letting families bury their dead in peaceful ceremony.

- Changing John Lennon's and other musical artist's music that is inspirational to stick 'God' in it so that their little kids can listen to it and be brainwashed and also teach many people to possibly forget the actual message of the original song. wtf.

- Telling women to dress less provocatively because men can't help themselves and they will be raped for it and for men to worship God because he's the only one that is going to save them from their sexual rape urges. When challenged on it, the other person is told to shut up...real freedom of speech there.

- Telling children to suck it up if someone tells that kid to go to Hell. Telling children they cannot be gay because it is a sin. Telling children they will be disowned if they aren't Christian. Telling children to ignore school education subjects because it is evil and to walk out.

- Answering a door and being harassed by members of -any- Church for any reason other than possibly asking for donations for some cause or selling tickets for some raffle. No one, including other Christians wants to hear about how they need their soul saved on their front doorstep. Telling some Christians they aren't true Christians because they accept that others exist and believe as they do not and accept gays etc.

There is one thing with having freedom of speech. Sure, I believe everyone is entitled to it but there are times if you say something dumb you pay some repercussions. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you say whatever and nothing bad happens. It means you can say it and not expect government persecution. Also, it's not just the speech that gets Christian zealots in trouble. It's their actions. They make regular Christian folk look horrible just as Islamic fundies make followers of Islam look terrible.

I could give a ton of other examples of how wrong things are and why they are either fought and debated on or else we are just going to accept them as the typical norm. When Christian radical groups are stopped from oppressing education, oppressing development and science, oppressing gays, oppressing cultures, oppressing other religious views, oppressing people who have no religious cares, oppressing children and forcing them to follow their ways, oppressing music, video games, books, entertainment, art, language etc... When these crimes stop happening and people are let to follow a religion of their choice or none and we can learn without having religion forced in our faces even if we are of the same religion... then the lesson will have been learned and no one would hear a peep out of atheists more than any other group that expresses their religious opinions through books and movies etc. Being of the majority does not mean people should ever just ignore the minorities, especially in a country where we are so diverse in the first place from our very conception.

 

Who says the human concept of Science is the right way? Maybe it is all a lie but we cannot see through our eyes, human concept is ultimately flawed. Looking from a human only perspective won't tell if we have god/s or not around us, or if science holds the key to true knowledge.