Various thoughts

Lately a lot of threads seems to be focusing on religion, either aspects of it or particular beliefs.

Every time it seems to result in some form of Christian Atheism slanging match and it has caused me to think what I am about to say.


Atheists continually push that to believe in a god or follow a religion is to be lacking in intelligence and are blinded, that they see the truth and that they are the superior ones with their high levels of intelligence that prove that there can be no god.

However, that in itself is blind. To preach that those around you are following the wrong life and that they are acting in ways other than intelligent, surely that is exactly the same as the actions of some religions that you argue about so frequently?

"There is no god, to believe so is stupid"
"Thou shalt have not other gods before me"

Declaring other ways to be wrong and your own way to be right, isn't that exactly the type of thing you fight against?

I am an archaeologist, I have seen the evidence for evolution, I do geology, I have seen the evidence proving that the world is older that what religion would expect us to believe. Yet I don't force my opinions down the throats of everyone.

Some of those who claim to be of a higher intelligence than those following a religion are really only as blind as those they continuously criticise.

As for religon, I do not believe in god, does that mean I will go to hell? I don't know, afterall, if the Christian god is so loving and caring, how could he send people to hell who live good honest lives without worshipping him? What of those who are unaware of the existence of him and Christianity but instead live a humble life showing respect and honesty all their days, would that person be sent to hell?

Islam condones the murdering of innocent people in the name of Allah, those who kill are viewed as heroic, how can that be justified?

Some religions allow taking of multiple wives, some justify murder.

Religion causes war and conflict, people fight over their beliefs and die for them, but if you yourself fight for your faith, then how can you not see that the people you are fighting are doing the exact same thing? Are they not able to feel the same passion for their beliefs that you do?

Plus, if most religions think you will go to their version of hell for not believing and following them, doesn't that mean we are all damned to spend eternity suffering?

Maybe I can't really comment, I belong to neither side.

People who believe in their chosen gods are not all ignorant unintelligent blinded people, just as not all atheists are arrogant, forceful snobs with a superiority complex.

Extremsists are when the problem is.

Arrogance is just another form of ignorance and I think both sides need to take a step back and realise just how similar they both are before continuing to belittle each other.

Believe what you want to believe, follow your faith (applied to both sides since afterall atheism is a form of faith too is not? The belief that there is no god), but the least you can do is let others do the same.

 

Thats what it should be like but for some reason people just can't seem to grasp the idea of opinions and how everyones is different. It's not just in religion that this pushing attitude is seen but religion is the most in your face one at the moment seeing how its in wars, government issues and even on the internet (proof being here). I'm not sure of what I am anymore seeing how I was an atheist but seem to be more agnostic and am caught inbetween the two with something I was once told but i've had intellegent discussions about god with both Theists and Atheists and both seem to understand each others point of view but if you bring the two together it just seems to go wrong.

 

I wasn't saying it was just religion, in a way I see atheism as a faith too, the belief that there is no god. Maybe I should edit the bit you quoted to make it clearer?

In a lot of ways atheism is fast catching up to being as agressive as religion can be.

It depends on the individual that you talk to, I know some who refuse to see the other side, and that IMO is wrong, if you believe something, whether it is the existence of god or otherwise, then how come some cannot comprehend that others think differently?

I am not saying either is wrong, I am not saying either is right. It is a personal choice at the end of the day. If people hate for their views and beliefs to be imposed upon, then why seek to do the same to others?

 

I know what you mean, I was just using religion as an example. I guess my wording is a bit confusing itself.

 

I have no problem with the personal belief of others. The problem I have is when it affects society, government and education (places I think religion has no place). I will tell someone my opinion, as that is my right. I will not flame them, that is counter-productive. However, I will defend my opinions; especially those that are largely backed up by fact.

People seem to forget there is no such thing as a "Right to be Offended".

 

Funny story: apparently hell doesn't even exist in Christianity.

In Hebrew, there's no word for "hell". Originally, where the word "hell" would be, various other words are used instead (Gehenna, Tartarus, Hades, Sheol, etc) (naturally that was all lost in translation). I also believe only "destruction" is mentioned, as opposed to eternal suffering. And they're two very different things.

So in other words, at most, what awaits non-believers is an instant of pain and then nothingness. Which works just fine by me, and IMO is perfectly compatible with a benevolent god.

Anyways, I'm agnostic and I think people have the right to believe whatever they want. I just don't like it when theists are in my face about it. I realize they're trying to help, but so to speak, some people really don't want to be "helped".

 

I understand where you're coming from, but religion really isn't "Follow god or hell!, you can't do this or that, you're a sinner"

I wouldn't want to follow a religion which, instead of helping the world made it worse. I do believe in God, but I also would never follow a God who tells you to be ignorant(as much people seem to think God says). Unfortunately people just jugde what they see and the rest of everything gets balled up with the blame.

I do say that Atheism is slowly becoming extreme(or has always been) as much as badly founded religion. So in a way they would both cause the same kind of harm(if employed incorrectly) on society, Education and Goverment.

 

Define "well founded religion".

 

(I know this is gonna backfire completely or something -_-)
Maybe my wording wasn't the best one, sorry. When I said that I meant religion who warps and bends religion to what they believe.

So, per se.

Well founded religion is not the best word, but to define what I was meaning. A religion that doesn't warp and brainwash people, but instead gives you the freedom to wonder , without being some blind sheep or warping its ways to make people mindless drones, I suppose. as the most prominent examples are how the catholic church burned people or killed them, made them suffer and pay large amounts of money. I guess that's one example of "Badly founded religion"

As for "Well founded religion" I've yet to see a whole congregation and or denomination who are completely devoid of the above mentioned. but some have it to a lesser extent, so in this case its up to the person.

The same could be said of Atheism, but in different ways. some Atheists bash christians and wish them eliminated, while others just don't believe in God. I'm christian but if the church did something out of line I would be against said thing, such as any human with common sense would do. but to be an Atheist extremist who would get mad because of little things.

I hope that made some sense. Thought I probably said something wrong and my points might be blown away.

 

Quoted for relevancy:

I do not consider myself extreme, but I do find fault with organized religion's continued assertions that certain natural laws and facts are false (evolution, for one. The age of the universe, and countless other examples) without any kind of supporting evidence except a book written before the advent of scientific thought.

In spite of this, I will not go out and find Christian, Buddhist, what have you, meetings and loudly state the reasons why they are wrong, and most times, I will not even talk to someone about what I believe, because, IMO, religion and politics are the fastest way to destroy civility between people. I talk on here, of course, mostly (tbh) because there is no risk of physical harm from anyone on here, and no risk of lawsuits either, but aside from that, because it is entertaining in my free time to debate about things. I refer you to my earlier quote:

You Christians (or whatever religion) put your views on a public forum - expect them to be debated, picked apart, and reassembled for you.Same goes for any Atheists. You will notice I have not started a single thread in the Discussion forum, mostly because I have no desire to instigate conflict. If it starts, I would love to be in the middle of it, however.

 

Hm... different religion point of views to me are like opposite magnets. They will never connect with each other no mater what you try. One always has to be the opposite of another. One always has to be right, and the other one always have to be wrong.

Like CtR said... why bothering trying to prove the other one wrong and say your right all the way? Why argue about it? Sure, it might be totally different viewpoints, but everyone has their own opinions, right?

Religion in my life just shapes me to be a better person in the world. It doesn't give me the notion to argue with others about what I believe and what they believe. Just to accept what other people think and then move on. I just use it as a foundation so I can better interact with people, and be a better me. That's all.

 

BWAHAHAHAHA!

*ahem*

Islam does not condone the murder of the innocent. Extremists condone the murder of the innocent.

 

Islam (as far as I know, which may not be very far) is against murder in cold blood. That is very easily interpreted as meaning as long as you have a good reason (such as being told to by Allah) then it is fine to murder whoever you wish.

 

i myself am Atheist and i find it really annoying when Atheist people barrade people who follow religion with insults and loaded questions like they're on some religious witch hunt or something. it's ok to state your opinion but sometimes it gets on the borderline of harrasement. those kinds of people are really annoying because they think they know everything and they impose their beliefs on other people. anyone who imposes their beliefs on others is annoying in my opinion, religious or not. for that reason, i don't really approve of missionaries either, i know they have good intentions but they can be kind of arrogant.

 

I agree. When religious people (specifically Mormons) start going DOOR TO DOOR, interrupting people's personal lives, to "spread the good word", I say it has gone too far. If any of them ever come to my door, I'll just slam it in their faces, because they have no right to do that. A man's (or woman's) house is his castle in this sense - his place of peace (or hers, if you want to look at it that way). WE should not have our lives interrupted by religion if we don't want it. It's different if they put it on tv, because you can choose not to watch. You can't choose the people that walk up to you on the street or ring your doorbell.

On an interesting note, it seems that the smaller and less significant the religion (cults, etc), the more they seem to advertise, specifically by word of mouth. I don't know, I could be wrong, but that's just what I see.

 

Well yeah, exactly. You can choose to let the Mormon Missionaries in your homes or not. They don't know if you don't want religion in your life or not until you tell them. And you can choose not to open the door if you do see them. *shrugs shoulders* Sure they can be pesky, but they'll back off if you tell them straight off to leave you alone.

 

mormons do not go door to door unless they are on their missions and even then they are supposed to just go to a few houses; it is a VERY small part of their duties.

plus, those in the LDS are usually never pushy, never want to get into your life unless you invite them, and are never intrusive.

just wanted to clarify that :D im a very happy member of the church, so there you go.

 

Mmmm. Well, I was citing them as the ones that you hear the most about. If I mentioned some wierd little faith no one's ever heard about, like the one based on the "Matrix" movies, people would say "WTF" and ignore my post.

 

A tidal wave of atheists should be crashing onto you by now. Atheists aren't delusional; they should know that God can neither be proven nor disproven.

This.

 

I totally agree. If anyone finds a way to prove the existence of God OR the existence of the Big Bang and evolution (both of which would seem to completely blow the Christian bible out of the water), I will hail them as the greatest thinker of all time. Until such time, I will continue to defend my belief system and explain it for the edification of anyone who cares to listen, even if they choose not to believe it, and I would expect nothing less from all the Christians on this site and in the world, in fact, as long as our belief-spouting is non-intrusive.

And CtR, occasionally, a strong faith in God CAN blind you to scientific evidence - hence the term "blind faith". Just look at all the Christians who refuse to even give evolution a fair hearing in their schools, just because it goes against a literal interpretation of the Bible, when most of the scientific evidence points to it. I remember my days in a Christian school (worst years of my life - somehow Christian kids are worse than Public School kids.), when it was taught to me in my science book that there were 2 views, except one was called a fact (creationism) and the other was a false theory that has been disproven (evolution). It claimed that evolution's prime concept was not that species change (the reality), but that humans randomly evolved from rocks (way to simplistic of a view). It then proceeded to mock the theory of evolution and praise creationism for the rest of the chapter. Not a fair hearing under anyone's standards.