The Non-Binary Gender Thread, or "A Little from Column D, a Little from Column V"

Is this going to become a running theme? You better believe it, sib'.

Do you identify as a gender that isn't strictly male or female, and care to describe how you identify yourself? Have you been questioning your gender and wondering if you fit into one of these mysterious categories? Want to ask about or discuss the definition of any LGBTQ genders, or share your own views and experiences with them? This, zhis and theys, is your thread!

Now, I will ask that this thread abide by a ruleset similar to the one in my other oddly-titled thread in this section. Please try to keep discussion light-hearted, don't get into anything too graphic, and for the love of mozzarella, don't go insulting anybody or putting 'em down for their life choices. This includes hostility towards those of a traditional gender who want to join in on the conversation; I don't wanna f#$@%& see it, capiche?

As well, please remember that you are dealing with human beings with legitimate thoughts and feelings and, most importantly, limited patience; it's all right to have questions, but don't expect them all to be answered! This isn't a Q&A panel for the more vanilla folks out there, it's an open forum for discussion. Everyone should feel welcome and relaxed, not like they're on a talk show, or in a themed QT or something.

I may discuss my own gender feelings later, if the thread gets hoppin'.

 

This question has always stumped me. At the risk of sounding pretentious, I opt for a third gender.

How does one 'identify' as either female or male? Does being feminine merely equate to possessing submissive characteristics? Are femininity and masculinity defined by nothing more than societal norms -- the clothes one wears, their hobbies and interests, etc...? If I don't wear make-up, does that make me any less feminine? I can be feminine, but I've always viewed it as little more than going through the motions. I've always found the idea of a gender binary silly. However, I acknowledge that it must hold some ground. For why else would transgendered individuals be pushed to self-harm?

I don't mean to disregard or belittle the struggles of transgendered individuals. Hell, I've been called a 'dyke' before. I feel estranged from society, but I've never considered it a result of 'transgenderism'... even if I am not cisgendered. I simply don't understand what the problem is because I don't understand the gender binary.

(despite my cluelessness in this area, I consider myself a part of the lgbtq community & they have my full support.)

 

cis-scum reporting in~

At the risk of sounding transphobic(/non-genderphobic?), this is not a comfortable topic for me - not because I question my own gender, but because it's something I don't really understand and I tend to think that a lot of 'non-binary' individuals are of the special snowflake variety. I guess the notion of gender is pretty lost on me, period, because I don't differentiate between it and sex.

/so unprogressive omf

 

This is a common mindset to have, and I don't fault you for it. You are cisgendered. It's all you've ever known, therefore you overlook the possibility of there being anything else. I take it you don't have any lgbtq friends to consult.

 

Likewise, I find it problematic to classify oneself as male or female because it implies there are traits inherent to them. Females, for example, are traditionally the caregivers, but if a woman has no inclination to have children, does that make her any less of a woman? Not at all.

Our societal notions of gender are a component of the outdated and (hopefully) crumbling patriarchy. We should challenge what it means to be male or female. I am all for people identifying as what they believe they are, and changing their appearance to match what is on the inside. More power to them, really. But allowing the labels of "male" and "female" to affect us is buying into a society where there are expectations & stereotypes attached to those titles.

However, my exposure to the subject is relatively limited so if someone would like to challenge this, please do feel free.

 

But what does being lesbian, gay, or bisexual have to do with gender in this context..? (not trying to detract from your point, legitimately asking).

 

I'm glad this was mentioned. To an extent I agree, part of the problem is that "male" and "female" have traditionally been such narrow windows, and they should be expanded. But it is also very difficult to shake free of the stereotypes and preconceived notions of either gender. They stretch back well beyond the span of our own lives, and that's intimidating to think about. Not to mention, no matter how expansive they become, unless they are built upon with other terms and sub-sets, "male and female" will likely always be viewed as a dichotomy. A divide between peoples. That's how I sees it, at any rate.

This is why I take care to invite people to share their definitions; not just what they call themselves, but what it means to them. Because there are those who refer to themselves as a traditional gender, but with a decidedly progressive outlook on what that can mean. I'm interested to see who thinks what about that issue and what occurs to them as the "right" thing to call themselves.

I for one don't mind that "maleness" and "femaleness" retain somewhat limited roles, because for some that specificity is important to defining themselves and their boundaries. The problem is that there has yet to develop a solid distinction between sex and gender. Boys are male and girls are female; this is what we've been told. And this is absolutely a trend that should be bucked. Firstly because it has never been suitable to describe genetic diversity (trans individuals come to mind), and secondly because the culture is now clearly and severely outpacing the language.

The last two letters are of greater import here: Trans and queer, common blanket terms for the type of personal identifications being discussed. They also tend to get forgotten a lot at the LGBTQ table. That'd probably be why only the LGB portion occurred to you, in fact.

And yes, queer is still a bit of a controversial term. In this context its use is considered a reclamation and thus the proper term, but people can still get sensitive about it in casual conversation, so be mindful of that.

 

LGBTQ = lesbian/gay/bisexual/transgender/queer
Oh whoops, forz already answered. Thanks bud, that was a convenient save.

 

Oh, I know what they mean. It's not that only the first few occurred to me, it's that they didn't seem to fit this discussion so I was confused as to why they had been mentioned at all, lol. I guess it's because they usually come conveniently packed together. My bad~

 

Just want to add that I am really not up on my proper terminology for this issue so forgive me if I've got it all wrong, I hope my points are clear despite it.

Oh I agree that the classifications are often to ease society more so than the person. For example, if I felt inside that I was male but did nothing to alter my appearance, society would accept me as the external self (female). So cutting my hair short and wearing men's clothing might do very little to nothing for me, directly, but it will help society see me as what I feel I am. Otherwise, I would run the risk of being rejected or ridiculed for my claims as male. ( This example, of course, does not factor in that many transgendered people genuinely want to dress in such a manner )

So in that case the person is buying into the societal notions of gender, yes, but not because they believe in them, rather because it makes their placement in society easier. Still, though, that is passively conforming to a flawed system; its drilled in conceptions of sex and gender directly effect you, and you appease it rather than challenging it. Which, I cannot fault people for, considering the abuse transgendered people face. But I can't cite it as positive, either.

Defining oneself is all well and good but the definition should come from within rather than from society. The reason it's so hard for these notions to crumble is because people are un/misinformed on the issue (myself included). I believe children, who have not yet had the years of exposure to society, are far more open to accepting a world without a gender binary. Consider Laura Jane Grace's account of her daughter dealing with her transition.

 

I'll be frank. I consider a person to be whatever gender they physically are.
As far as I'm concerned, if a person goes from being, for example, male to female, they are female, not 'trans' or whatever.
A lot of people feel offended by this, but I personally feel like giving yourself an entirely different gender because of your sexual preference or feelings is silly, and kinda self serving. That said, if a person has different preferred pronouns or whatever, I'll use them out of respect.

 

Yes, and this is why some would rather throw out the terms male and female altogether. They see them as tainted - irrevocably shaped by society into something unsavory that they cannot change by themselves. It is out of a desire to define oneself from within that many of these alternative terms are formed. Because male and female appear so set-in-stone that it is simpler, if not easier, to leave them behind.

Every one of these words is a set of traits. Even if the words are in the common lexicon, they don't describe the same set for every person. And even then, from all the existing words there may not be a one that fits what a person believes to be their own traits. I think kids should be taught that there are words for these things - not just two, mind - but if they can't find one that suits them, they should feel free to define themselves in whatever way fits.

The real challenge will come in teaching a whole culture to make less assumptions, especially since sometimes those assumptions are kinda hard to do without. I mean, what do you do about restrooms? :L A hard fight, but worth it in the end, I think. I just don't believe we should dilute the meaning of any one word too much; rather, recognize that words are just limited sometimes, but that we don't always need them. Use where convenient, omit where superfluous, as it were.

You call it self-serving, yet aren't you also serving yourself by deciding what people are? Does it not make things more convenient for you?

It's not just about sexual preference. It's about cultural roles and emotional expression. To this day, there are still things a man or woman can do that won't be taken seriously because of their sex, and that is unfair. That's a part of gender identity as well. Trying to break free of these subconscious limits we place on each other and ourselves. It's not just about feeling better; though if you ask me, denying someone's right to do something that makes them happy, long as it doesn't hurt anyone, is as silly as it gets.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you and it is an interesting read, but I'm not sure why you thought it was a good example of your point about children being more accepting?

 

I'll be honest. I'm failing to understand the discussion subject here.

If you have a penis, you're a male; if you have a vagina, you're a female. Or are you referring to something else in regards to gender / sex? I'm honestly legitimately curious here because I really do not understand.

Thanks and apologies if I've disgusted anyone. It's the only example I could think of.

 

"Defect" is kinda harsh. I think "rarity" would be a better descriptor. NO BUGGER OFF BRONIES I'LL KILL U

 

What you're talking about is sex. Gender is what you refer to yourself as, where sex is the biological aspect of it.

The best example I can think of is Chaz Bono: biologically a female, psychologically a male (though she had a sex change to alter that).

Now in regards to myself, I'm cisgendered. I have no problem with people who are LGBTQ because that's entirely their choice to make. Your exposure to society may affect your perception of others, especially people who are "different," but I do feel like it's not fair to judge others for making their own life choices.

 

Because (if memory serves, I read it like a week ago now, heh) her daughter was, on the whole, rather accepting of it. There were some moments, like the one you mentioned, but they were products (I think) of the society she'd been raised in. The child was used to thinking of her father as a boy, and now that she wasn't doing "boy" things, the child was confused. It's telling not only of our social constructs of gender and how they can crop up even early in development, but her daughter's overall acceptance was why I brought it up.

 

I don't really care about trying to categorise myself as anything when it comes to gender. Gender is a human by product to better understand themselves, control the chaos that is the internal emotions, personality, thoughts and consciousness of humanity.

Honestly, I say I'm a male. I don't fit into the category perfectly, then again, like sexuality, there is no perfect standard which I find myself fitting in, I fluctuate to much day by day. I don't believe anyone does, which is why I would identify with cisgender, purely because by all accounts, it's the closest factual basis for my gender being fixed ina biological sense. To say i'm the third gender, mono gendered, etc, to me is like trying to explain the unexplainable or get away from the point, as those terms are too broad. If I know who I am do I have to write it down? Feels condemning to fit myself into another category i'm never going to fit in with exactly.

I also feel even the less known genders are effectively stereotyped by the people who class themselves as such. Like transgender men, who dress up in wigs, high heels, dresses and try to sound like a silky seductress. hat seems like a really stereotyped view of women from a men's perspective and try to fulfil that role because they feel more comfortable in it then by acting like an effeminate man.
Also, i've seen a couple of men who identify as female, yet they act like males. They are aggressive, swear fuelled, quick to judge, to name a few traits I would say are considered male traits. So I identify them as male, I call them he, think of them as such and no matter how much they tell me they identify with being female, I don't buy it. They are either trying to be rebellious, act unique or are not sure of themselves, none of which really makes me think gender identification even matter.

 

I'm gonna be straight up and say I'm more of a girl than a man. Of course I'm classified as a male >.> I like a lot of things most guys don't. Don't get me wrong, I ain't afraid to scrap or nothing. I'm not weak by any means . . . well, maybe just a few. I'm a guy, but the way I act when I'm not doing anything that requires my attention, could and should be considered at least 120% girly. I'd make a better high school girl than a frat boy college student.

I don't really like the way gender is classified anyway. I think it should all have to do with your behaviorism's, not what you're "packing" so to speak. A girl can be more of a man than a man can. A man (i.e. me) can be more girly than a girl can. I think it should all come down to what you want to classify yourself as.

I'd take the classification of "janegirl," instead of "tomboy." Think about that. A tomboy is a girl who acts like a boy. So, I want to be classified as a janegirl. A boy who acts like a girl.

I can't help the way I am, and honestly I don't want to. I'm perfectly happy and proud of who I am ^^ I'm a janegirl at heart.