Birth by Sleep Getting too complicated? -Spoilers-

I'm sure this is a subject that's crossed everyone's mind at least once, but...is the Kingdom Hearts series getting overly complicated? I mean, it started out as a boy, Sora, chilling on an island with his two buds, he gets attacked by an unknown menace, gets a mystic sword, fights the evil (and his best friend for an added twist), saves the girl and the day, then sets out for the sequel. A basic storyline for any video game, plus some Disney worlds and Final Fantasy nods.

Then comes Chain of Memories. Essentially, it's Kingdom Hearts all over again, but a little more condensed, plus a trippy castle and some super-secretive bad guys. A little tough to follow at times, but still a fairly good and intriguing storyline.

Next on the lineup is Kingdom Hearts II. Again, the basic plot of Kingdom Hearts I, but with the super-secretive bad guys and different worlds. However, also with Kingdom Hearts II came a new guy, Roxas, who turns out to be part of Sora. At first, it doesn't make sense, but as you go along the game, it makes perfect sense. The three Kingdom Hearts games have a good logic around them, which we find out the more we play them, and which can be summed up in a fairly simple way.

a) A person loses their heart
b) A Heartless is formed from the person
c) If they have a strong heart, they make a Nobody via their empty body

If you play the games, this makes perfect sense.


Then, between the secret ending and a clip from Final Mix of Xemnas talking to a suit of armor, we realize that something a little deeper's going on. In the clip, there's a kid who looks suspiciously like Roxas, and apparently some kind of war going on. However, let's be honest, the first time, we were all mainly drooling over how cool the graphics were and how intense the battle was and how suddenly it didn't matter that Jiminy's Journal took two years to complete. But the second time, we all wondered how these three Keyblade Masters fit into the saga.

So then comes 358/2 Days. This game mainly gives us some insight on Roxas' past, brings in a new character, Xion, and explains some of the motives of those super-secretive bad guys, Organization XIII. Then there's a sad ending and everyone cries, but also something interesting. Xigbar brings up that, to him,

Spoiler

Xion looked like Ven. (Which, by the way, is super trippy.)

Granted, I still haven't beaten the game due to my grudge against the Halloween Town level, but I can't avoid spoilers at this point, so I won't.

Next comes Birth by Sleep. While still not out here, a lot of us have cheated and gone over to Wikipedia to find out what happens. If you don't know but want to, go check it out. I'm not posting all of it here.

So, to summarize so far, I quote one of Ghetto's posts in the Spam Zone.

So, to finish up my absurdly and unnecessarily long post, is it just me, or is Kingdom Hearts getting WAY too complicated as it goes along?

 

Oh yes it does.
I was discussing the same thing about 3 years ago, with the announcement of the new KH games.
And we had concluded that it would be getting ridiculously long. And we were right, as you explained in your post.
Honestly, I don't know why they keep making spin-offs.
One possible scenario is that they want the story to expand so much, and so that they can make more games. Nomura has stated that this is just one story, all these KH games, are just one story, when it finishes (with KH3 perhaps), they will make another Kingdom Hearts, irrelavant to the past games.
Or maybe they made a mistake because they didn't think about it very well, and they released 3 games that have nothing to do actually with the future KH3?
Or they have something else in mind, of course. They created Kingdom Hearts after all!

 

Yeah but personally I find it better...it gives the fans plenty to guess and makes many theories come along...and from whats said...all the main characters are pretty much the same person...Must be awkward for Roxas 'I'm eating ice cream with my best friend!...Who is...Me?'

 

i have no problem at all with how complicated it is
thats why i like it in fact
BUT
what will happen is
is when the kingdom hearts series ends the fans are going to be so mad because they do not get to look forward to another new game.
As long as they do not try to keep it alive longer than it should then i am fine with it
but once they start putting like the jonas brothers in there or something like that
then i am DONE with the series

 

I see what you mean. I don't really like the whole mixing people together thing. I mean, its okay with Roxas and Sora, but what I dunno bout' like

Spoiler

Ven and Sora. Its okay with Roxas and Sora and its simple enough, but when you start mixing 2 whole people.

Thats when it gets a little... :/
Also, even now I still don't get some things like, HOW did Kairi have a nobody when she wasn't a heartless? And how come her's can effect memory? Downside to a complicated story. Don't get little things like that

 

Well kingdom hearts 3 is s'posed to be last in the Xemnas saga...In other words there are to be other games and story lines (All revolving around Sora if i remember rightly) So it's all good...unless they do try high school musical or hannah montannah or something...but for now I'd assume they plan on using sequels to the disney movies...And theres a possibility of pixar movies

 

Honestly, I'm just getting sick of every game they're announcing being on a NEW console and being some sort of NEW prequel with NEW characters. The stories are still interesting and the games are still enjoyable, but at this point, it's been like 5 years since Kingdom Hearts II was released and we still haven't gotten a real, true, sequel.

Final Fantasy was able to be such an extensive series because a majority of the stories were not connected; each one was a new story, new characters, a new world, but it didn't matter if you skipped a few in between. With Kingdom Hearts, you need to play all of these new games in order to get what's going on! It's ridiculous.

 

I think an interesting solution to that would be to make it like Final Fantasy, but all of the games are in the same universe. The characters all don't relate exactly, but the story would take place in the KH Worlds. I really like the KH Uni, so I wouldn't mind that.

 

The mixing gets confusing at times but it is necessary at the end. I understand

Spoiler

Ven and Sora because of the connection they made at the beginning and end of birth by sleep. Ventus was with Sora all along.

Then Sora got ten years older and that's why he can use the keyblade.

As for the kairi having a nobody,

Spoiler

Kairi's heart was inside Sora. Sora released his and her hearts when he stabbed himself with the keyblade of peoples hearts. When Both hearts were out of sora, that created two nobodies instead of one.

What i don't get is why Roxas and Namine can run around while sora and kairi are about as well. I thought the nobody was an empty shell of what was a person. Unless Roxas is

Spoiler

Ventus' body when sora lost his heart

I don't understand him. The reason why i say that is because of Xemnas' journey around Castle Oblivion and the fact that in KH2 final mix,

Spoiler

I thought i saw Xemnas talking to something in what looked like the room Ventus was left in.

I also don't understand why namine can run freely or control memories.

Something else i don't understand is how Roxas can cry and have emotions. Unless Roxas has a heart he can't have those emotions so what i am also wondering is did Roxas have sora or ventus' heart during all of this?

:sweat: AHHH SOOOO CONFUSING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bangbang:

 

It is though Lost, Inception, Final Fantasy and Disney had some really interesting orgy... in the past or in the future or.... DISNEY FANTASY LOST INCEPTION!?!?!?!? Que dramatic music (because all of the above have use dramatic music).

 

Quite honestly since BBS released a couple of weeks ago I still don't understand the story. It is getting annyoing but I'm keeping up with the series because I wonder what the hell is going to happen next.

and secretly I can't help myself from buying a new game once one rolls around. :/ and plus I love almost everything from oldschool disney...so yea :]

 

Some help for you all

Sora and Ventus aren't one. Sora just holds Ven's heart inside of him. I think...

Namine can control Sora and co's memories because she's technically made of his heart. (Kairi is a princess of heart and thus has no darkness so she HAD to come from him i.e.)

Roxas is believed to have held Ven's heart in all his time as a "Nobody" (not his body, it's always been in C.O.). That would explain why they look alike and why he can feel emotions and cry.

Roxas and Namine can run around while Kairi and Sora are because all four of them are incomplete. If Nobodies can run around without a heart then why can't people run around without a part of themselves too?

And anything else you need to know just PM me. I'm good with the KH logic and shizz.

 

I like the complicated side of it, it gives me lots to think about and it gives you a better feel for this world that was created. Frankly, I love the series and it's complications, there are still a lot of things I don't get but I'm trying to figure them out.

Regarding Ven

Spoiler

I thought that he could have been like a nobody when Vanitas came about (like Vanitas is his heartless), so when Sora became a heartless Ven's heart was released (as it was with Sora). Roxas has emotions because he is Ven but I'm still kind of confused by it.

 

I completely agree but because of this, they create not just a game, not just a story but an alternative reality. Nomura is creating something which he considers a type of reality to himself and creates it for us to explore, theorise about and feel for. One proof of this is probably in KH 358/2 days when Xion is about to disappear.. If it was just any old game people would just go "it was inevitable" but instead, and i am one person who is apart of this, cries at the fact that she disappears into nothing. its the creation of emotional attachment to the reality, it makes its come alive and makes it real. To many people it has changed them in both good and bad ways i.e. how seeing that light is always visible inspires them or maybe darkness does in some cases.

SIDE NOTE: when you post put *Raise your hand* if you too cried when Xion died. I don't cry at many things but that was just too much for me.

 

This is what I was trying to get into words, amazingly phrased.

If I've had a bad day in reality I like to close myself off to the world of Kingdom hearts, it's one of the only games I've felt a truely emotional attachment to the characters, I get sad when one of the organisation members fades let a lone Xion. Kingdom hearts is an escape to a reality that feels like it could be real. It teaches a lot about light and darkness and uses them as good metaphors for different things. It can get as complicated as it wants, I'm looking forward to figuring out the tiny significant details.

 

Just to throw another wrench into the problem:

What is Kingdom Hearts?

 

One of the major problems that makes Kingdom hearts confusing is in that fact that it is an epic and based around how strange circumstances work together to make exceptions. Often times in KH it is hard to tell how exactly a system works because so much of what we see is events that are surprising to the people in that universe. Like Cat<3 Sora I would like to believe I have most of it worked out, but Nomura throws so many curve balls it becomes hard see what a straight shot looks like. I hope that makes sense to someone other than me.

 

I know, without a doubt, that kingdom hearts is LIGHT.

Nah, I thought it was the heart of all the worlds, or something to that effect.

Nomura just seems to be like a child adding stuff to his sand castle. CoM was pretty much the only addition that ties the best into the whole numbered games. The others are pretty much just to clear plot holes. Or add stuff were there isn't any.

KH ended with the second one. My guess is that Nomura had put a bit of thought into BBS, but only after he was almost done with KH2. Days was pretty much fan service with some added perks (We don't get much insight into the organization, instead we get bad graphics and a half-baked story), Days didn't need to be a game. Or if it was, it should have been better.

Birth By Sleep has two purposes: Creating ground for a KH3, and filling up plot holes or questions. The problem with this games is only one. The fact that it was kinda thrown in, convoluting everything. It solves plot holes and what not, but It would seem more legitimate if it had been hinted at since the beginning.

Coded: Worthless. We don't need another game where Sora goes through all the world again, but with twist(CoM was enough) The Secret Ending? They could have added a scene that could have depicted everything (Mickey was searching for data, found blah blah blah)

To be honest, all these additions make the story seem cheap and improvised. Cost way too much in the long run, while adding very little.


Tl;dr The handheld additions are only worth it if they have good gameplay. We need a KH3 already.

 

Then why does it need formed by Organisation XIII? We know it is behind the door. We saw it in KH1. Also, why is it not in the Realm of Darkness in KH2? Why does MX summon it in BBS? It just seems to provide a backdrop, and not actually DO anything. Also, why is it at the Keyblade Graveyard?





Birth By Sleep has two purposes: Creating ground for a KH3, and filling up plot holes or questions. The problem with this games is only one. The fact that it was kinda thrown in, convoluting everything. It solves plot holes and what not, but It would seem more legitimate if it had been hinted at since the beginning.

Tl;dr The handheld additions are only worth it if they have good gameplay. We need a KH3 already.[/QUOTE]

BBS has the best gameplay out of the entire series. No joke.

Nomura knew what he was doing with BBS by KH2. There is a clear hint in the Secret Reports. Ansem found Xehanort in the middle of Radiant Gardens with no memories, and took him in. Birth by Sleep is the story of how he gets there.

Days, OTOH, was a waste of plot. Playing as Roxas was rather dull, and all we really learned was that Xion existed and then didn't, and that Roxas and Axel were friends.

 

Kingdom Hearts is not too complicated. Not even close. In fact, there is no such thing, but if anything were too complicated it wouldn't be Kingdom Hearts. Obviously you guys have never seen The Prestige.

Yeah... Pret-ty sure Ansem explicitly states that Namine came from Kairi in one of his reports. Either that or she came from Kairi's heart and Sora's...something. The reason she's so weird is because of the little tango Kairi's heart did with Sora's.

Except that all of the Organization have emotions. They just won't 'fess up to them. Axel definitely has some.

This is a point that seems to be confusing a lot of people.

Spoiler

Chronologically speaking, the Heartless-Nobody concept is in its infancy in the Kingdom Hearts timeline; remember, Terranort created the Heartless through experimentation. So anything that existed before that point was either a prototype or of a different nature. It's said several times that Ventus's heart was split, not removed. All of the darkness was forcibly drained from it, because he refused to express it on his own; and what emerged became Vanitas. And unless it's been confirmed by an interview, I doubt Roxas had Ventus's heart. That's just over-thinking it.

*hands up* I didn't full-out bawl, but I got a little choked up, which is impressive considering my track record with crying over games--only once before, when I was really little. What's more, I was horrified. Not startled, like in survival horror, but genuinely fearful for Xion's fate. That has never happened before Days.

Ah, and here's where the real fun begins. I'm gonna go ahead and throw my big Epileptic Tree out there on this one:

Spoiler

Let's break this down. From the name, we can assume two things: Kingdom Hearts is a kingdom, and it's full of hearts. Let's tackle the latter point first.

If Kingdom Hearts is the sum total of all the hearts of the universe--its people, its worlds, and so on--then it must have a connection to those hearts. It must have many forms derived from those hearts, as well. Anyone with sufficient power who appears before it changes its form to suit their needs or their beliefs, which would help explain the scope of its power; how it was able to fuel Seekernort (my pet name for Terranort's Heartless) with darkness one moment and obliterate him with light the next, and how it brought Riku back to his original, pure form. Now, I believe the true form of Kingdom Hearts has only been seen once, when Seekernort dragged Sora and company to its doorstep for the final battle. Why is that the only time its pure form has been seen? Well, that leads me to my next point: the kingdom aspect.

If Kingdom Hearts is indeed a kingdom, then it must have a king, right? Well, does anyone remember the Nobodies referring to both Sora and Roxas as "my liege?" And why do you think Ventus/Sora/Roxas are the only ones who experience Destati? The fact that the pillars feature portraits of the Princesses of Heart, as well as anyone connected by heart to our sprightly little hero? Sora is the freaking King of Hearts. He's the only one who can render Kingdom Hearts in its true form. That's why, when he truly believed in and called upon the light within, it answered, and flash-fried Seekernort. That's why its appearance has been radically different when it was approached by the likes of Geezernort, Seekernort, and Xemnas.

The only thing that bothers me is the X-blade. If it was so important to Xehanort, then it must have some role to play. I suspect that it is meant to facilitate the destruction of hearts so that they can return to Kingdom Hearts and strengthen it. That's why it can only be forged by a clash of pure light and darkness; it beckons war.