Does God still fit into our ethical views?

Okay, I have recently decided to start reading the bible, and it is a bit of a chore, mainly because it is so difficult to realize that this particular book caused the death of millions and shaped modern society.

Anyway, I am only in genesis and the story of Abraham, so if the book picks itself up later on, disregard this post. :p

I have so many qualms with this book, it's not funny. It seems to me as if God is a cruel being for one so powerful. Let's start with the biggest problem. The very concept of Sin.

Okay, from what I've gathered, Sin is the act of giving into the temptation of not following God's plan for the ideal world. Pretty much disobeying God. But here my problem comes in. God deals with Sin in the most abhorrent ways. He destroys two cities as punishment because the people in them were greedy and sinful (Doesn't elaborate). Now how is this just or merciful? After all, we punish to get an alteration to the victim's behaviour, correct? Much like one would punish a child for stealing by smacking them on the hand. If God were not all powerful, I would be able to understand, if not accept, his methods. However using such blunt, brutal methods is far too cruel for one all powerful. My reasoning; God is able to gain such results without resorting to such crude methods! He is able to bend minds to his will and reform people's behaviour that way. He is able to completely erase the thought of Sin from people's heads. A reform in behaviour is why humans punish children. So if both methods attain the same result, why use the way of death and destruction? The mind-bending way is cleaner and less bloody. Both methods rob the victim of free will, so why not rob them of it painlessly, as opposed to wreaking havoc and destruction over cities?

Then we come to my second point, which we briefly touched upon earlier. If God is all powerful, why did he create Sin? He is the creator of reality, the beginning, the great inventor. Now it seems He went through by making stuff and seeing it was good. But I see no where in genesis the line "And God said 'let there be Sin", and then there was Sin and God saw it was bad, but he left it there". So why does it exist? Surely a being all powerful and one who detests something that much would be able to obliterate the offending concept? He created creation. He made reality real. Why did he bring Sin into the world? In my opinion, a deity who does that, then punishes humans who Sin does not deserve the respect of anyone, let alone worship.

Continuing that point, where does Satan fit in? God calls him the tempter, but where does Satan do the tempting? There is a snake, but not Satan. I'll give this the benefit of the doubt. I'll say that Satan gets revealed later as the villain of the piece. Even if Satan did play the role of the snake, it does not make him the tempter. He just helped it along. God was the one who placed the tree of knowledge in the garden. God was the one who created the nature of humans to want what we cannot obtain. God knew about the temptation he had placed there. He knew that Adam and Eve were subject to the way he designed them. They had no choice but to eat. When they did eat, God punished them horribly. If I were to do the same thing in today's standards, I would be considered a monster. Give a couple of babies (For that was what Adam and Eve were. No one taught them the difference between right or wrong) a room full of toys, but place the coolest, flashiest, most fun toy right in the center and tell them, "Don't touch". There is no barrier, only the toy and them alone. Then another child of mine, we'll say a malicious teenager, comes along and whispers to them that if they use the toy, they will know about grown-up things and that they will become more responsible. The babies then play with the toy. I find out, pick them up and throw them out of the house. I keep an eye on them from a window, and I shout at the occasional kid who tries to bother them, but they have to manage for themselves. We all agree that doing this would be monstrous. And I haven't even factored in that I could have made the babies born with the inability to touch the toy.

Even in today's times, we do not allow the type of things that god did, and the only reason we must take those sorts of actions is because we are unable to resolve it any other way. For example, America and Iraq. Sure, George Bush killed many in his quest to bring order to Iraq, but that was simply because he could not do anything else. America is assisting the clean-up of Iraq, and it will be years, but there is still something there. We are not rebuilding from the ground up, like Noah did after the flood. Humanity is not perfect, and we do make mistakes. Yet I believe that if we had the resources God had, we could manage the world far better than he could. An all powerful being that resorts to wholesale slaughter in order to exert his will is well below today's ethical standards and is no deity I wish to follow.

 

You just figured out the faults in the Bible! Congrats! Also, you know how Cain and Able are the only children of Adam and Eve? And they're both male, right? And then Cain kills Able. And some how, humanity continues to thrive without any other females. Unless he asexually reproduced.

 

CainXEve?


Oh dear, we seem to have hit a problem. :'D

 

The Bible doesn't say EVERYTHING. Remember, Moses wrote this.

 

Adam and Eve had Cain, Abel, Seth, and many other children. Try again, my good man.

 

Very good job on covering that. Forgot about that.

 

Um, no. Cain and Abel were their only children.

 

Ok, you guys really need to read the Bible, because you seem to be interpreting everything literally, and that's not how it's supposed to be read.

1) Sin was not God's creation. That was our creation.

2) Cain and Abel was another story that the early Hebrews decided to incorporate into the Creation story. It wasn't originally related.

3) The snake=the devil=Satan, in some interpretations, although Satan was originally different from the Devil.

4) Humans had the choice of eating the fruit or obeying God. They chose the former. This choice, which gave them self-awareness, among other things, was not what God intended for them. They could no longer exist in Eden with the knowledge they had. So, God had no choice but to exile them (and again, this story is not meant to be historical or literal).

Read on. You -might- figure it out.

Seth was their third child, to replace Abel. Read the Bible before you make that claim.

That's highly unlikely, considering that the Old Testament actually came from at least 4 sources.

 

No, no they aren't. Please know these things before you post.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Adam-and-Eve-questions.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080922095525AAEfaGx

There, I even got some sources for you. Enjoy.

 

1) God created everything. God created us. God created Sin. Hardly a difficult train of logic to follow. This is one reasons I cannot stand the concept of this God. Take credit for eve
rything we do, but disown the evils that we reap. if we are rich, it is because God made us so. If we succeed, it is because God made it so. If we Sin, it is because we did it.

4) Humans had no choice. All we are is a program, much like a computer. (You may argue otherwise, but that is due to self-awareness, which the fruit gave us) A single celled organism has a reaction to certain things. For example if a flea detects vibrations, it jumps. This is to get onto prey. We are but more complex fleas and computer programs. God created us and is all knowing. He knew by the way He designed us so that putting the fruit tree there would cause us to eat. He could have made us only obey him. He could have put better guards around the garden so THE DEVIL might not be able to waltz in! A programmer who makes a program with a flaw in it, then deletes the program in anger because of the way the program reacted to something he placed in contact with it is an idiot.

God is all powerful. If He wanted to, he could rewrite the laws of the universe to disallow Sin.

Oh, and as far as literal applies to my case (You may have been talking to the AdamXEve shippers) all that needs to be answered is a few questions.

1. Is God all powerful and all knowing?

2. Does God hate Sin?

If yes to both, then my points are valid. If no, then I wish to know how you interpret the stories of the Bible.

 

Hardly a dumbass. I was always taught that there was only two children, one of whom killed the other. It is the fault of religious education. How can we expect to make informed decisions if all the important facts aren't made available.

 

They're very much available on the internet. Not only that, but he refused to believe that Adam and Eve had more then two children when we told him that they did twice, and he could have easily looked it up to see if he was correct.

 

Getting back on topic...

In response to your original post, Pika_Power:

1) Yes, most people who are newer/inexperienced with the Old Testament find it hard to see God as merciful and loving. They look at the instances where God punishes people in grand ways. Sodom and Gomorrah is probably the most well known. I suggest you read Genesis chapter 18, specifically verse 16 on. Abraham actually asks God if He would spare Sodom if fifty righteous people could be found. Gods agrees to that but Abraham isn't so confident with that number so he asks the same if 45 were found. God agrees to that too and so forth until the number gets down to 10. Of course, not even 10 people could be found righteous there. Sodom and Gomorrah were not just recently overrun by sin/evil. The detestable practices in those cities had been taking place for years and continually building. God did not think, "These places are starting to get out of hand, I better do something before they get worse." God's patience is expressed in this story. He even made sure Abraham and Lot's families (those who believed God's warning) were safely out of harm's way when the cities were destroyed.
About your claim that God should just use "mind-bending" to change people, where would free will go? We as humans have a choice in everything we do. Some say we don't have a choice because God knows everything about us anyway. Knowing everything and controlling someone are two different things. Besides, if we were controlled like robots, don't you think God would have us keep from sinning and the "Fall of Man" would never have happened in the first place?

2) I think you kind of answered yourself when you were saying, 'And God said, "Let there be Sin..."' and how it is not in the Bible. God did not create sin, sin is the result of human kind's choices in life. Again, we were created to have free will otherwise we would just be little robots who never make decisions on our own.

3) "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." -Genesis 2:16-17
You basically said in your first post that if the serpent(whom I consider is Satan) were not there to tempt Adam or Eve, they would have eventually eaten from the tree anyway. Now, I know curiousity can be a powerful thing, but if the One who created you told you that eating from this tree could kill you, would you honestly taste it anyway? I'm not saying God told them it would kill them instantly, but saying what he said, I think most people would assume it is what he meant and wouldn't want to take the chance. I mean, they were in a garden that had everything that could ever satisfy them, why would they think a forbidden fruit could add to that?
Again, I think Satan is actually the serpent in the story. He lied to Eve, saying she wouldn't die from eating the fruit. He made it tempting by saying that their eyes would be opened, "and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5) Technically, they were already like God because He had made them(humans) in His own image(Genesis 1:27). Adam and Eve did not have to give in to the temptation of what the serpent had said, but they did because it was their choice (yes, free will again).
And why wouldn't they expect to be punished for what they did, they had ample warning from God-death had to have been a red flag for them. Their eyes were opened to the concept of good and evil(evil hadn't existed for them before). They couldn't just live life on blissfully because evil was now an option for them. The punishment seems less harsh than it could've been(for me at least). And God didn't become a bystander that only popped in when He felt he needed to. He's been with us and among us as long as we've existed. Adam, Eve, and humans in general only end up managing for themselves because they don't look to God for help.

Now to that second post of yours, Pika_Power,
1) That comment about how if we're rich or successful, it is because of God-if you meant monetarily, it shouldn't apply to a Christ-centered life. Materials things are just temporary and have no real importance in the real scheme of things. People should feel blessed for being able to take care of themselves, but they shouldn't be proud in it(especially in excess) or think God would want to be know as the guy who makes people rich. That aside...
It is our fault if we sin. It is our choice to do the right thing or the wrong thing. Some times we don't think ahead of time, but we're still making the choice. God wants us to make the right decisions, so why would we blame Him if we do something bad or not feel the need to thank Him if we do the right. God doesn't have an ego, He doesn't bug people saying, "Hey, that person had something good happen for them, they should be thanking Me." People thank God for things because that believe/know that He had a hand in it. You don't have to thank/praise God for anything, it'll make Him sad that His creation isn't getting the fullest experience out of life but He won't be hurt that He wasn't the one getting the spotlight for the achievement.

4) I'll restate that God created us to make our own choices. The choice to eat the forbidden fruit was ours, God didn't make us eat it or put in view because he knew we would eat it. If anything, I always think God was hoping the fruit would never be eaten. Even though He knew what was going to happen, I wanna say He still hoped beyond hope that Adam and Eve would never think twice about eating from that tree. And again the aspect of free will is brought up. If He made us to unwillingly obey Him, what would be so special about us? Without being able to choose, we'd be God's dolls or robots. He didn't make us so we could be played with. Why were we made? I don't know. God could have kept evil at bay, never put the tree in the garden, made humans completely obedient to Him, but he didn't. He allowed us do make our own decisions, even if they end up being the wrong ones. He didn't want puppets, He wanted people.

I may sound redundant, but I feel that's the best way to get my points across. And don't feel like I'm attacking you, Pika_Power. I was just going through the points of your posts because they had the most to say about this subject(you started the thread, afterall).

And, God is all powerful/knowing and He does detest sin(but not the sinners) are my answers for those two questions.

 

He may not have made us eat the forbidden fruit, but he created the forbidden fruit and our curiosity which is as bad as making us eat it. I mean, God knew that if we were made curious (which we were) then we would be drawn to anything mysterious (which the tree was when god refused to reveal anything other than "It will kill you") therefore he knew that we would eat from the tree. And yet he punished us anyway, what a bastard. Unless, of course, he doesn't exist and the entire of Christianity is a lie (which I think it is) then it is all fine because humans choose their own decisions and deal with them because they are human. God is an insult to humanity and anyone who worships god insults humanity as well. Thanks for the insult.

 

I know about Sodom and Gomorrah and how god was merciful to Lot. My point was, how is ruling people through fear of death and destruction different to ruling a race of robots? I don't see it as being better. But that is no longer my main point as in my mind they are not the worst now that I have read a bit further. In fact I regret bringing them up as they pale in comparison to this point.
Cue the plagues. Enter the Pharaoh. Who is the victim? You claim that god only killed those he had to or those who sinned. But what about the Egyptians?
After Josef's rule over Egypt, the Egyptians enslaved the Jews much like Hiter did, minus the eradication of them. So God chose to take action. So far it sounds innocent. God gets a couple of Jews and sends them to the ruler of Egypt to demonstrate his powers and earn freedom. The Pharaoh ignores their requests and dismisses them, so God unleashes plagues upon all of Egypt. Now this is against innocents too, so all the pain of the locusts affects the innocent Egyptians. Even in the Holocaust we did not kill like that. We attempted to keep attacks limited to enemies and there were rules on how to treat prisoners.
Now here comes the real smasher. The real thing that removes all willingness to accept this god as my master. After each plague God's messengers visit Pharaoh and demand freedom and threaten to unleash the next plague. Now read this. Exodus 11:9-10 The Lord had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you - so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. Read the underlined bits. That has been repeated a few pages before too. God killed every firstborn son in Egypt, crippling it and bringing grief to innocents. They were not sinners. Their only crime was to not be part of Israel's offspring. And God slaughtered them wholesale. Pharaoh did nothing wrong but imprison the Jews. When he was offered the chance of salvation at the hands of the Lord, God hardened his heart and forced him to refuse. God made him sin so that "His wonders may be multiplied in Egypt. I'd say that would be Sin by Proxy. Then God went further. He Punished Pharaoh for the sin he was forced to commit. He punished the whole of Egypt for the error of one man who's error was forced upon him by the punisher! How can you knowingly worship a god like that?

Why not just warm all our hearts to the idea of god? Mothers have hormones that make them love their children. Does this mean that they don't truly love their child and it is just a robotic love with nothing behind it? Why can't we have that with God? Or perhaps just soften our hearts to god like he hardened Pharaoh's. Love attained through those methods is far better than love through hate and fear.

Firstly, I am a determinist. I believe in determinism. Everything is cause-and-effect. For example, a pool table. If I hit the balls with the stick (Ballard?) then they will go a certain way. If I hit the same set of balls in the exact same position in the exact same way, the balls will always go the same way. In fact, if you had the right knowledge, you could predict the movement of the balls. It is the same concept in life. Everything happens due to cause and effect. The laws of the universe govern all. This includes humans. We are not exempt from this. Our brains follow the laws of the universe. There is no such thing as choice, only perceived choice. If I'm hungry, I can choose to go to the fridge or the pantry. Let's say I choose the pantry. You'd say that was free will. It's not. If the exact conditions were replicated, I'd choose the pantry every time. Perhaps it's a cold day and I want a biscuit. Perhaps I had something from the fridge earlier. Either way, it's all predetermined by other things. So when god created the tree and the garden, everything was set. all was predetermined. Thus he knew the results and he set them as such so it would happen, just like he did in Egypt. (only in Egypt the bible admitted it.)

Meh. >.> I'll concede to you on this particular point. I was going on the Things Abram said in response to the King of Sodom offering him riches.

But there's no such thing as free will. God knew what would happen when he made the garden. There was no "Choice". I don't want robots, but hypothetically, would we be happier if we had stayed in Eden? Did God want us in Eden? If so, why place a tree that he knew would corrupt us there?

Of course! I love a good debate. If I didn't want a countering response, I wouldn't have posted here.

 

I am. That's where this thread came from. When people read the bible, they see faults. Big faults.

 

and/or code. The Bible has been manipulated, but why? Why look at the faults constantly when you can look at the possibilities? I know it has its faults, I love to point them out to. But there is also something more, something the "average somebody" doesn't see.

 

I'm not against what the bible has in terms of morals with the commandments and with the "Love your neighbour" message, but if it is gained through fear or deception it is worth nothing. That sort of power is that of a tyrant, and if God is a tyrant, it should be said instead of hiding behind a veil of "Good".

The concept of a perfect world is good, but I don't think that it will be handed to us on a platter if we believe in this being. If we want a Heaven we will need to make it ourselves and craft it on Earth. We can do this without a deity.

 

lol, I did. (Torah though, not Bible). I only saw that Adam and Eve had two children. That's what I learned in Hebrew School as well. So, yeah.

 

Interesting. I agree with you, but we can do it with the morals and concepts you so believe in. I am in the belief that God IS the moral concept, he isnt a being to us because we can not understand him as a being of material. The best way we can understand god is an ideal, a spirit, a entity that is not of body or matter.

R U Jewish? If you read the Torah you should still know.