This may not go here but I suppose it's the only place I could think of putting it. I thought I'd bring up something that kind of bugs me about the word Bishonen being used to describe males that look like males just became they may have some feminine qualities about them that make them look more 'handsome' than girlish. A lot of people use this word and it isn't right according to translations of what the word actually means which is to describe 'boys' that have a beauty that transcends sexual boundaries. In other words, a young boy or man that you have trouble discerning if it is male is bishonen. Bidanshi is a term used for men or boys that look like boys and you can easily tell but are handsome. For example, they have muscles, nice features and may have soft facial features but looking at them you can pretty well still tell these men are men. I am not sure why this word is not used more often other than the fact that we westerners don't hear it used nearly as often as Bishonen. So basically I thought I'd start putting the word out there. Why? Because it kind of gets old hearing that some guys in video games or anime are bishonen when clearly by the meaning they are not. It's like calling someone who's metrosexual an appealing androgynous boy. I'm not trying to be biased here but open up a point on the difference since bishonen also often refers to this sort of 'stereotype'. I'll give some examples of people that are often labeled as bishonen but to me should probably be instead labeled as Bidanshi and see if you guys can come up with more to debate on or if you agree or disagree with me. 1. Sephiroth - It has always bugged me that despite the man having long hair, thin eyebrows and such I have never had a problem discerning Sephiroth was male. He has a muscular build and is an adult with a serious look about him that removes the bishonen standard. I'd call him Bidanshi. 2. Kuja - Kuja was a male that is in his 20s but I could honestly not tell he was male until when someone actually said he was. He had HIPS for goodness sake. He would be called Bishonen to me. 3. Riku - Though Riku was 15 and 16 in the KH games, he is clearly male with a muscular physique and tall. Yes, his face is rather gracile and his hair is as it is, but by no means did I ever have trouble discerning him to be male by his muscular physique and demeanor so I'd call him Bidanshi. 4. Dante - Despite some of Dante's feminine facial features, he definitely appears male to me as you can see his chest and all and his clothes are also masculine. I'd call him Bidanshi. 5. Larsa Solidor - In FF XII, this character is a 12 year old that was very hard for me to tell whether he was male or female and is utterly the epitome of what bishonen means. He's a very nice looking kid but what gender he is was seriously up for debate. Bishonen. Of course this is one of those small things that I thought I'd share and get your opinions on because even in rl people use the word bishonen to describe guys that work out and look good etc but take care of themselves. There seems to me to be a big difference between how these characters look and well, I'll shut up now but just had to ask if others ever get bothered by this at all. Maybe others will come up with more characters too that get classed one way but might be actually bidanshi instead.
huh. I never thought of that. Almost reminding me like several character in some games like FF and then some kids at my school acting like tomboys or tomgirls and then more.
I think there's a huge gray line when androgyny is considered. Most would consider Dante more rugged, especially since his overhaul in the fourth game. Kuja and Sephiroth almost cross the line in my opinion. While Spehiroth's later KH incarnations have given him some what of a broader chin, Kuja seems to border cross dressing in my opinion. As for Riku, his features also seemed to decrease in their femininity when comparing KH2 to KH.
While by definition you may be justified, how it is used and accepted in actual culture is more vague. Your post only focuses on physical aspects, when in fact 'Bishounen' encompasses not only aesthetics, but their form of speech and their mannerisms as well. Now this is where it becomes muddied because you don't need to look feminine *and* behave femininely to be considered bishounen. In most cases, looking feminine is enough to be considered a 'bishie'. In fact, to say that one is a bishie *only if* it's hard to discern their gender is narrowing the definition too far. Those individuals would be bishounen, yes, but on the extreme end of the spectrum. It's called 'bishounen' in the first place because it's determinable that they're male, but they have many feminine qualities, appearance and personality alike. Being muscular certainly does help prevent a character from becoming a bishounen, but in reality that's not the actual reason why that's so. It's just that muscular men are not usually developed to become bishounen. Rather, the decision for a character to be muscular comes after the fact, not before. But even here, we have exceptions. Cloud Strife has always been drawn as a lean character, which has been depicted ever more so in Advent Children, but guess what, he's bishounen. Bidanshi just doesn't cut it here because Cloud was developed (because Nomura is such a swell guy) to be perceived as a bishounen for the masses of Japanese females who just swoon every time he's on another page of Famitsu. Zack Fair? Also a bishounen, and he has muscles too. On the note of personality, I do want to note though that it's not unheard of for 'rough' personalities to be bishounen. A perfect example is Kamui from X (a series by Clamp). While he has a rather harsh personality and is a very capable warrior, he is in fact, a bishounen. Again, textbook definitions don't always decide what the culture as decided upon to be correct. Bishounen men as it developed in the 80s and 90s more or less had a certain formula in the way which they were drawn. This was because for whatever reason, 'bishounen' was becoming--and still is--very popular among the school-aged Japanese girls. They absolutely loved the look of bishounen. Thus, many animators took this 'bishounen' character image and pretty much plastered it on lots of different protagonists, regardless of what sort of personality they had. Kamui certainly doesn't have a typical bishounen personality, but he is considered bishounen because he was drawn to be perceived as one, and naturally fangirls flocked. I'm digressing, but in the end, bishounen is not as narrowed down in definition as you seem to want it to be, Repliku. The labeling of bishounen has a hierarchy that is prioritized on appearance first, and personality second. You can give a character any personality in the world from homicidal sociopath to high school valedictorian, but if they're drawn to look/be perceived as bishounen, they will be considered bishounen. I'll agree with your opinion of Riku if we refer to KH2, however, KH1 Riku very much fit the bishounen image alongside his fellow bishie Sora. But let's break the word itself. 'Bishounen' means beautiful boy. That being said, every time someone is labeled as such, it is *known* that everyone labeled under this title is a boy, therefore male. Thus, you're stretching it a bit by saying being bishounen is exclusive to those that are difficult to determine gender. Like I said, this are still bishounen, but are at the end of the extreme. The word 'shounen' has usually been a term coined toward younger males, (translated as 'boy') due to its lighter/softer connotation. But this soft connotation is also the reason why even though you may come across feminine looking males that are obviously well into their years of adulthood (20-30s), they can still be justified as being called 'shounen' (i.e. boy). More 'manly' men will almost always be referred to as 'otoko' (man). For the record, I do agree with your list. Sephiroth and Dante are not bishounen, and anyone who thinks so doesn't understand the definition well enough. Bottom line here: The difference between Bishounen and Bidanshi is based on image, not nit-picky details about their appearance or personality traits. Examples of Bishounen: Sora, KH1 Riku, Cloud, Zack, Kamui, Sakai Yuji (Shakugan no Shana), Sanada Kouichi (Kimikiss), Faye (Tsubasa Chronicles), list can go on. Examples of Bidanshi: Sagara Sousuke (Full Metal Panic!), Sephiroth, Heero Yuy (Gundam Wing), Kurogane (Tsubasa Chronicles), Kurosaki Ichigo (Bleach), Shannon Casull (Scrapped Princess), list can go on.
I do know it's more complex than what I made it but really I would not consider Riku in KH to be bishonen since he does not act feminine or look it except for his face. He was a lot more manly than Sora was in KH by all counts of mannerism and appearance. I do agree Cloud would fit more the bishonen quality as well but didn't want to add him since it becomes a fine line to describe why I call him more bishonen than Sephiroth. However, I think it kind of becomes clear when if you put Cloud in a dress...which he wore and could win the competition for getting chosen if you did the right things with Don Corneo...well he would look more the part than Sephiroth would and also his demeanor was weaker. I'm not sure though that I'd say Zack Fair is bishonen. That's one of those could be either way for me and hard to declare. Everyone else on your lists, Soush, I do agree with. You are also right that being bishonen doesn't imply the character is weak etc. There are many that kick butt despite looking thin, small and feminine. I admit there's a fine line to bishonen vs bidanshi but I really seldom hear the word bidanshi and it seems to fit some characters much better than bishonen does. At other times, it can lean either way. I just think that too often bishonen gets used for any male in anime or video games etc that well...just dresses nice and has gentle facial features. No one would call Cid from FF VII bishonen but would call Vincent bishonen. Also it wouldn't apply to Barret. Any guy with a beard, facial or body hair etc or any distinctively unclean look seems to always be not bish while anything is. I guess that's why I was saying the word bidanshi should also be tossed out there because I never hear it used but on Japanese sites.
Like I posted before about Kamui. Kamui is rather ruthless and isn't gentle in any sense in terms of his personality, but he's still considered bishounen--because his image by CLAMP (his creators) intended him to be so. It's hard to not categorize Riku as a bishounen when he has a feminine-enough-looking face and the fact that he's a young boy. In Japan, he's been marketed to be bishie, and as such became regarded as one. I only refer to KH1 Riku in this sense.
