1st Debate! Existence of Fundamentalist God!

Now, then. I think I'll kick off the first thread in the debate subforum.

Personally, I do not think that the fundamentalist version of any God can exist, according to what the world is.

First, let us define what the fundamentalist version of the Christian God is, since it's the only one I'm familiar with.

1) MUST be and do EXACLTY what the Bible says. All literal.
2) Omnipotent.
3) Omnibenevolent.
4) Omniscient
5) Infallible

First, let us take out #2. Can an omnipotent being lift an unliftable rock? If he can, that rock is not unliftable. If he can't, that is something he can't do.

Now, #3. and #1. According to the "Holy" Bible, all those who do not submit themselves to God will have eternal punishment in Hell. Let's take ME for example. I am atheist, yet I am a philosopher. I am a humanist. Is it right to put me, one who has done nothing wrong, in the same place as Hitler? I do not see that as kind, let alone omnibenevolent.

#4. Sin happened because of Adam and Eve's Fall of Grace. God could have easily stopped this, and save the entire world's suffering. But he did not! Infact, he was SURPRISED! If he was omniscient, he would have KNOWN what would happen! Then WHY did he stop it?

#5. I can't remember this story well, but I got the gist of it. God chose one of Noah's sons to be the ancestor of Jesus, correct? However, if I remember correctly, that son did a sin, and God chose another son. Therefore, he was wrong about the first son being the ancestor of Christ. This also goes under #4.

Ready, set, DEBATE!

 

Well, being Catholic, I can't help but disagree.

I think that just because our so-called "science" says that God can't exist doesn't mean that it's true. He's real...you just have to believe it in your heart.

Yeesh, that sounds corny.

 

First let me state I am on the border of agnostic and atheist. And I as well study theology.

Now many christians and catholics believe that what god does he does for a reason, so according to many priest and religious scientists the idea that god has a plan will forever be the one that is turned to. So by that god wanted to release sin upon the world, for some greater good or for all we know to see the downfall of a creation. Now I agree with you on the points of being omniscient and omnipotent, it does not seem logical that unmovable rock can be movable by the hand of god, but I have encountered many illogical ideas in christian ideas.

 

I'm a Christian... I really do not understand what you were saying about #4.
God gave Adam and Eve the choice to sin, or not to sin, when he created them.
If humanity didn't have the choice, we'd all be like robots!

 

I think what is being said is that, why would he create something that had such a flaw, and why did he not stop that, or create something to resist the urge to sin/cast sin upon us all. Its not saying that our freedom is taken away, just we would know what is right and wrong in that sense.

 

To answer that question, we first have to hear where sin comes from.
It comes from Satan/Lucifer/whatever you want to call this guy.
Lucifer was an angel. Angels all had choices just like humans. The book of Genesis in the Old Testament says that Lucifer was one of the most beautiful angels. He had a huge ego and a prideful attitude, and thought that he was even better than God. God sent Lucifer down to Hell, and all the angels who were joined with Lucifer. Now, all Lucifer wants to do is to get revenge on God's creation, humans, since we were made in God's image. The Devil and all his demons tempt us to do sin. Yes, God could have stopped all of this, but it wasn't in his plan.

 

The entirety of christianity is just messed up. "Beleive what I beleive or burn in a firey pit for all eternity." Does that sound very christian? The whole bible was a book made up to create a set of guidelines and values, as well as to explain the world around us. God and all his stories is outdated, because we now have science to explain things. I don't beleive in god, I'm athiest as most of you know, and I have noticed each of the flaws mentioned during my ventures into the christian world when I was younger. There's so much condriction, so much pain, so many uneeded values, so many restrictions, so much unfairness, and so much evil that spews forth from the bible and it's followers everyday, there's no way a god could exist. MOST of the wars in history were fought of this "god". MOST fo the world bases their lives on religion. And where does this lead us? To fighting. A god would never allow this. Sure, he gives us "choice", but doesn't it also say that he has a plan? If he has a predetermined path set for us, then we don't have a choice now do we? God is just so farfetched, the whole idea just doesn't match up with todays society, christianity is a blast fromt he past, a tie to earlier times that only weighs us down. If we as humans want to ever advance past what we already are, we need to break that tie, and get rid of the false gods that still hold us so tightly in their hands, fake or not.

 

God can be real, sure. Anything is possible. But remember, you can't use your opinion to guarantee he exists. God was written into text long ago when people weren't modernized at ALL. They were still using stones and having basic civilization. It wasn't until 1300-1500 that the renaissance kicked in and everyone became intelligent and not slaves to their deity's. God is, to this very day, worshiped almost primarily out of fear. I used to be Christian, before I started studying all kinds of religions--and I used to HATE the idea of not believing in God. I thought my life would be a terrible one if I ever admitted to myself I didn't believe in God. So I was in denial.

So essentially, the entirety of Christianity is almost impossible to prove.

What?

No we wouldn't. We're living people made up of cells. We'd be exactly as we are now.

To add to that, when God gave moses the 10 commandments, one of them says "Thou shalt not kill." But WHY has God killed so many people in the Bible? God shuned and angel, killed many people of ancient Jeruselum (as the bible says), and for what? He contradicts himself. Whether he killed those people or not, he is the cause of it. He is a God who makes himself look like a fool.

A God worth anything would never do that. A "perfect" God would give us love and not kill countless people. He makes Lucifer look like an innocent child, for crying out loud.

The Devil only killed/caused killings of what, 3, 4, maybe 5 people in total?

It makes no sense. Christianity as a whole doesn't make much sense. Even back in the time of Judaism, it still has the same logic and principles. Always giving itself flaws and mistakes.

Maybe if the angels wrote it and gave it to us, instead of having us 'flawed' humans write it, it'd be better. And judging by the physics of the typical human, no one could have kept that book without changing it--just like John did.

So no, I feel God doesn't exist.

 

I believe there is a god, but not the god that christians believe in. He is more of a spiritual being.

That's just what I think.

 

I like that idea, kinda like the whole god is with in us all. We just need to find it and imbrace it.

 

Oi vey a religious debate....Well I'll take my crack at it. -cracks knuckles-

I'd like to say first off that I had 12 years of a Catholic Education. I have literally read the bible from cover to cover and it is full of propaganda that you wouldn't believe. The book is written by men for men in "the name{only} of God" to convert "infidels to the light".

God has so much blood on his hands that he makes Lucifer look like a boy scout. Wars have been fought in God's name predating the Crusades. Back during the days of the Church's "convert or die a painful death" days. How would the Christians feel if, for example, the Muslims came in and did the same thing to us? Making the Christians convert to Islam or killing us?

Maybe you'd understand the Pagans who died a little better.

And as for Hell being one giant pit where a humanist/philospher would be grouped in with Hitler, I see Hell as more of how Dante Algheri wrote it in the Inferno. With many levels according to the sin. Philosphers such as Aristotle and Plato were kept in almost a Edenesque garden as their only sin was not being baptized/living before Jesus came.

And if God is all forgiving, why is there a need for a Hell? Aside to contain Lucifer and the angels that sided with him? Is it the stories of the Boogeyman or Santa Claus all over again? 'Jimmy, don't say that or you're going to Hell.' 'Johnny, don't play that game or you're going to hell.' Sorry to compare Hell to Santa Claus but it is the same principle employed by the Church to get us to behave.

And how did Lucifer {whose name means "Bringer of Light" or "Morning Star" } go from the most favored of God's Angels, to being his mortal enemy? It's all about balance. God cannot be so good without something evil to balance the scales. So Lucifer was chosen, perhaps as a bit of irony to a monk with a sense of humor considering the name meanings, to be God's everlasting foe until Doomsday. Lucifer was cast out of heaven to make God look good.

Pardon me for speaking with a serpent's tongue here having too much 'Sympathy for the Devil' but I was always interested in the tragic characters in stories and Lucifer is no exception.

 

Nice I see where you're coming from, IMO God like everyone on this earth is both good and bad, since it's kinda impossable to be both since what is good for some person, like giving blood is bad for another, this is what people need to think about, no one is pure good or evil no matter what they do.

 

Its true that no one is pure good or evil, actually by christian fundamentals, we are all evil, what seperates the evil from the not so evil is whether you have accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. Now people can live a good and whole some life, but by the mere fact that we are alive, states that we are sinners in god's eyes, its believing and working through god that those sins can be overlooked

 

But then we have to think about other religions who have there own god/s surely, they don't do not sin for beleiving in there own god/s. I don't mean to be mead or rude to anyone who is religision but I think it would be better if religion wasn't real, because think about how better people could get on if there wasn't, but that will never happen so I'll just have to live with that

 

That is true that the world would be better without religion, just look at the blood that has been spilled in the name of any god, as long as there has been a god there has been killing in his name. But also people need a place to turn to when the world may turn its back on them. I have seen my friends have that happen to them to and it has brought them great happiness, I tried to understand it but the logic never worked out. But people do need the safety of religion, like a security blanket almost.(If you are offened at all I am deeply sorry this may come off insulting to some people, I mean no offense by it at all.)

 

That's right, but I think people need to be more open minded, but again I won't be getting that anytime soon. But really we should listen to what other people beleive in even if we don't like it

 

True there are some religions that feel that it is there way or no way. And we all know that person that is the same way. This is something that our society has to deal with, and that may bring the downfall to everything, the world could end in what can be solved by just excepting people have different views.

 

im agnostic. i think that the idea of religion with the morals codes, the comfort/support and unity are all well and good. but i think any of the good has long since been destroyed by humans. also, i believe that God cannot be omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscent all at the same time. there would be no suffering then. i havnt seen anthing, or at least very little, to make me think that there is an all-powerfull, caring being that is looking after us.
religion just annoys me, and people who take it too seriously annoy me as well. im fine with people having religion, as long as they dont harm anyone else in the process. unfortunately, it doesnt work that way

 

Sorry Believers

I see lots of "blood spilt in gods name" stuff but honestly if it weren't god it would be something else, race, culture it's happened all before. So, not that i believe in God as in the big man. I see it as a manifestation of our collective unconsciousness. We need some reason to do stuff it's not like we'd love to toil our lives away to end up nothing. so it is something of a childish fantasy I'm afraid. Don't get me wrong believe what you want you go to your heaven or hell of self-contradictions and brain-washing or whatever but just remember not everyone will agree with all you believe. And it is possible that I'm entirely wrong I've been know to be, but so might you. As an after thought I do believe there is something driving the universe but in my eyes(with about 20/40 vision) I see it as a scientifically based force so I guess you could say I believe god is scientifically based. I'm rambling, OK no one kill me and/or stalk me. I live in an undersea utopia off the coast of Madagascar the bearings of whitch I'm not at liberty to discuss.

 

Honestly, the whole point of Christianity is that you cannot prove it nor disprove it. Not matter how much evidence you have that something else created the universe, there's always an opening, a singular possibility that it was God. Christians are meant to rely on faith, not science, to prove to themselves and others that God exists. If a person's faith can be swayed just because some old guy who knows alot of big words says there was evidence that apparently leads to us coming from monkies, I pity them.

Now, onto the whole idea that God cannot be Omnipotent. You say he cannot lift an unliftable rock, because then it wouldn't be unliftable. That's not entirely true. To men and mortals the rock is unliftable, but God is a whole other being, a whole other part of existance, that completely annihilates the barriers we humans have set up and named "Science" and "Physics". The idea of a God is that we, as humans, can do no more but praise and worship him. There is no hope to fully or even partially understand him.

Now, some people may question why God would create humans, a creature that can sin and break all the rules set forth by God. I believe this is where the phrase "God is a boy with a magnifying glass" comes into play. God created us, because he wanted to. There is no grander purpose other than to allow us to live. He is God, he does not require anything nor does he need to have some perfect beings roaming about. He will exist for all eternity and can do whatever he damn well pleases. Heh. Honestly, I don't think God would need any reason whatsoever for creating us. Who are we to judge him?

Bottomline, even if there isn't a God, it doesn't hurt to believe. If you believe and there is no God, you won't know the difference when you die. But if there is a God and you don't believe, you rot and burn in hell for the rest of forever...