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Kingdom Hearts II Was the Organization Evil?

Repliku said: ↑

I would not call the Organization evil. Really, to me, evil is a word that is negotiable as to what it means and we can all have different views on it. Some people will say it is evil for a starving kid to steal a candy bar while others will sympathize and say it is wrong but there are circumstances that merit it. So really, I try to not use the word 'evil' to describe even some of the most heinous figures of our time.

Instead, I judge people more on 'actions' they do. i.e. The Organization had a purpose. Their intentions were to get their own Hearts back since they were stuck in a state between essentially life and non-existence. They were missing a whole aspect of themselves which made existing rather banal and meaningless. In essence they were beings frozen in time and they were the result of the Heartless being unleashed on worlds of living people, where they consumed Hearts and thus what remained would become Nobodies elsewhere.

I don't even think Xehanort and the top 6 members of the Organization knew exactly what would happen to them should they give in to Darkness. The only one known to retain any 'sentience' after changing to a Heartless seems to be Xehanort, if Axel's words can be taken as true. The others however, who all were strong enough of spirit, did manage to have intact Nobodies, along with him, and memories of their former lives. This change may have been rather difficult on them and we also must wonder exactly why these members took the plunge into Darkness in the first place with Xehanort. Also, why did they insist on studying and going past the point of no return when Ansem had ordered the experiments to be stopped. These are mysteries hopefully that we will get some answers to in BBS and 358/2 Days.

As for the other members below, they can be considered innocent of the initial 'crime' that placed the top members who were apprentices of Ansem the Wise as traitors and threats to all life as the Heartless were unleashed not just on one world, but through interspace as KH likes to call the space between worlds. It doesn't mean they did not perhaps do things wrong or right prior to joining the Organization and prior to becoming Nobodies.

To be a Nobody, whether from the Org direct or one of the lesser ones, is a state to well...think on how horrible it might be. Imagine being a husk, a body that is not your own but is a memory of your own former body, powers that you probably did not possess prior, but also a lack of emotional depth and feeling. It is somewhat akin to vampires, which is about the closest thing I could relate it to. They are changed and though responsible for their actions still, their judgments would also be altered from a normal person's.

Being a Nobody, they would be as rational or mind thinking as they could be. They also would not have emotions to really 'care' about what they do to others. They merely wanted their Hearts back to be complete and I'm sure there was some other agenda there, but as of yet we don't know it. It is not the fact that they wanted their Hearts, or some Hearts anyway because they might not find their 'old ones', back which makes them bad people. It's not really the fact that some exhibited very little conscience or sympathy towards others that would make them conceivably bad or evil as some would say, because the state of being is what it is. It's not actions. They are as they are.

What made the Organization destructive and harmful to others was their actual actions in order to get Hearts. They harmed worlds, controlled Heartless and manipulated them, they even made more Nobodies with Heartless as they sent them to worlds, adding to their own numbers because they believed in the end, they would win. They also, with this thought in mind, had been allowing Heartless to make more of themselves. They used other beings such as corrupting a dragon and a dark spirit within a chest, and other Heartless that were not so before as strong aids to get Sora to destroy them and thus send their Hearts to the faux Kingdom Hearts created in TWTNW. Not only did Hearts not make it to the -real- Kingdom Hearts, but they were going to be used by the Organization for their scheme which may or may not have worked, but destroyed a lot of lives. They attempted to corrupt Beast, used Sora throughout, and some initially caused the problem of the Nobodies' existence in the first place and yet the leader who motivated the Heartless was also the leader for the Organization.

To me, I would not call them 'evil', but I would say that their quest brought about actions that required them to be stopped because of how they were pushing to force others to change and they certainly put a great burden on life to get what they desired. They would of course feel little if any guilt over such a thing, save for Roxas and later on, Axel. Demyx also didn't ever seem to fit in the scheme of things and in the novels he was even ridiculed for being kind of a bumbler. Because they had no conscience over quite a few things, it's no question also that Marluxia would attempt to betray the Organization because he seemed to not mind his actual condition as it gave him more power. Someone had to try the power ploy and not go along with what Xemnas wanted because the younger members certainly did not spawn the situation in the first place and of course, the lure of being in a new powerful body to some and having no emotions in the way, it's ideal for a corrupt leader to come about.

So though I do not consider the Organization to be evil, I do consider their actions to be destructive enough to merit that others would have to step up and stop them. They did never make their intentions fully clear which if they had, the heroes might have been able to have more sympathy to them. Only Riku really seemed to know things and did sympathize with the plight of Namine and Axel, as he came to understand their personalities and identities were unique, as was Roxas's and he questioned his own actions then of whether it was right or wrong to force Roxas back with Sora, though he had to or Sora would never have awakened. In the end, it came down to a call for survival of Nobodies versus the original people who were there prior to the Nobodies and Heartless. Is it right for the Nobodies to continue existence and make more, and seek their Hearts or to let nature do its thing to compensate for their condition?

People around here say they just were after their Hearts and it is true. They also slam on Sora and his allies for being 'closed minded' and prejudiced to Nobodies, but if you study the game in earnest, you'd see that Sora did not gain information on the Nobodies that we would see in cutscenes. It just didn't happen, so without Nobodies actually being willing to communicate with him or any of the heroes for that matter, he was at a loss and could only go in one direction. Also, Nomura pointed out that if a Heart is freed from a Heartless, it would return to Kingdom Hearts. If under normal circumstances, nature had been able to work, and Sora had freed Hearts, when a Nobody would perish or choose to give up its existence, that Nobody would return to his full life, with a Heart again. If a Nobody died however and the Heart was not freed from a Heartless, that Nobody simply would cease to exist. Now, Nomura states this but I must wonder if the Nobodies of the Organization -knew- this, just as much as I know Sora and his friends knew little about the Organization. So, if they did not, their mission was a desperate one to survive. If they did, they were out to make themselves into something more.

In any event, I think it came down to a battle of survival of Nobodies and their personalities and the desire to become whole... VS... the people who were in danger from Heartless and those who were changed to Heartless that they would never become whole again, because the Nobodies wanted to preserve their own integrity. Namine herself did not really want to go back to Kairi until she was resigned that it was the right thing to do or she and Kairi might always be incomplete. What would have happened to Kairi if Namine had become whole by Xemnas's idea? Let alone what would have happened to others who were in danger and did not have Kairi or Sora's predicament is a good question. I blathered on here but I guess the point comes down to I consider this more an issue of survival that had no choice but to be fought because of how the Organization played its hands. It's a debate whether they thought they -had to- or not but safe to say probably at least some of them did feel that way strongly. I don't consider Sora to be wrong in what he did, but I do not feel the Org was entirely without purpose either in their plight. I went into detail with this because I know someone will tell me 'well you don't think they were wrong or evil so that means Sora isn't justified' suddenly so it had to be clear. ^_^
Click to expand...

I guess so, as Shakespeare said, "Nothing is good or evil, but thinking makes it so."

It is also true that they had to use those methods because there was really no other possible way for them, it was the only way for the desperation of survival.

So yeah, well said, Repliku. ^_^ (And very detailed @___@)

Post by: Virtuoso, Nov 8, 2008 in forum: Kingdom Hearts HD II.5 ReMIX
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Kingdom Hearts II Was the Organization Evil?

Well yeah, you could say they are not evil, but the methods they used to obtain their hearts were considered evil. They would use heartless to wreak havoc in the worlds, which they expected Sora to destroy them, and they didn't really care if some members took the fall(In other words, died) and if innocent people were hurt since they, of course, have no hearts. So I guess you could say that they weren't evil but they used evil and selfish(meaning only for the organization's benefits and nobody elses) methods to reach their goal.

Post by: Virtuoso, Nov 7, 2008 in forum: Kingdom Hearts HD II.5 ReMIX
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Am I the only one who didn't like the Manga?

Well, I read KH manga and CoM manga and I didn't like any of the two.

First of all, the fights are WAY too short. It's as if they got bored and decided to make the fights only 1-2 pages! D:<

Secondly, most characters seemed so out of character, with the expressions and stupid things they said. Really, they even made the organization seem so stupid at times, it gets me irritated

But I read KH2 manga, and so far, it's pretty okay imo.

Post by: Virtuoso, Nov 7, 2008 in forum: General & Upcoming Kingdom Hearts
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Digital Art Wallpapers

imo Hiei is the best. =D
just get a better font for his wallpaper. xD

Post by: Virtuoso, Nov 7, 2008 in forum: Arts & Graphics
Thread
Kingdom Hearts II So I was wondering....

Is there any difference between the KH2 Novel and Manga?(Ex: plot, characters, fights, etc.)

I wanna know because I'm thinking of buying the novel but I don't wanna buy it if it's just several chapters of the manga in one book.

Thread by: Virtuoso, Nov 7, 2008, 7 replies, in forum: Kingdom Hearts HD II.5 ReMIX
Profile Post
Hi Hazzlie ^^

Hi Hazzlie ^^

Profile Post by Virtuoso for HazHearts, Nov 7, 2008
Post
SotW Entry SoTW #41 - One colour theme

???

that's weird. Then I gotta change it. :/
brb

EDIT
there we go. that takes care of that problem. ^_^

Post by: Virtuoso, Nov 6, 2008 in forum: Competitions
Post
Digital Art Ey sup. :]

The 7th one is your best. The smudging is just perfect and makes a good flow. 8D
what settings did you use for it and what brush??

Post by: Virtuoso, Nov 6, 2008 in forum: Arts & Graphics
Post
SotW Entry SoTW #41 - One colour theme

Yes, you make it black and white and then you add 1 COLOR to it like the other signatures already posted.

But remember, ask for advice in the designated discussion thread next time since this thread is only for submitting entries:
http://www.kh-vids.net/showthread.php?t=66443

hope that helps. ^_^

Post by: Virtuoso, Nov 6, 2008 in forum: Competitions
Profile Post
well, yeah, but I'm too busy with school so I really can't. I would like to, but I don't...

well, yeah, but I'm too busy with school so I really can't. I would like to, but I don't think I would be able to take in so many requests...

Profile Post by Virtuoso for Destined, Nov 6, 2008
Post
SotW Entry SoTW #41 - One colour theme

here's my entry, and I'm pretty okay with the result. =D

Post by: Virtuoso, Nov 6, 2008 in forum: Competitions
Profile Post
yeah I also like to chat here sometimes

yeah I also like to chat here sometimes

Profile Post by Virtuoso for GREE06, Nov 1, 2008
Profile Post
I like making AMVs and signatures here.

I like making AMVs and signatures here.

Profile Post by Virtuoso for GREE06, Nov 1, 2008
Post
SotW Voting SoTW #40 - Vote~

Laplace- At first I didn't know what the hell that was in your sig XDDD but then I realized that it was the guy from Soul Calibur I think. Anyways, I like the effects done with it. ^_^

Wabba- I like it, it's nice, but it needs a little more color.

VGN- a little too much contrast, but still, 'tis good. =D

Post by: Virtuoso, Oct 28, 2008 in forum: Competitions
Post
Kingdom Hearts: eCard Feature & Two Scans

welcome to KHV Mike, and I live in Florida too! XP

Post by: Virtuoso, Oct 28, 2008 in forum: Kingdom Hearts News & Updates
Post
who would make the best new partner for KH3?

Well, I don't think we'll se any Pixar movies in KH. Why? well, they have not shown even ONE Pixar movie in the whole series,(not even as a summon!) so I think they would need to have permission from Pixar also to use their characters.(i.e.: permission to use Buzz, Mr.Incredible, Sully, etc.)

Anyways, I would love to see a KH version of Vincent and have him as my ally, also Stitch, Wilbur Robinson, and best of all, Noctis Lucius Caelum from FFVersusXIII. =D

Post by: Virtuoso, Oct 16, 2008 in forum: General & Upcoming Kingdom Hearts
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SotW Voting SotW #39 - Vote!

Yes, I've also been waiting and I really want a new SOTW to start already, so please end this already so I have another reason to go to this section.

Post by: Virtuoso, Oct 16, 2008 in forum: Competitions
Post
Digital Art What program do you use?

I use Adobe Photoshop CS2 but I used to use Gimp.=D

Post by: Virtuoso, Oct 16, 2008 in forum: Arts & Graphics
Post
Digital Art we are {beautiful} we are {doomed}

Yes this style is similar to TWEWY, so I like it. only minor thing about it is, yes, the keychain, and the rounded corners of the keyblade are a little choppy also. But still, I liek.=D

Also, could you give a link to the original stock plz?(if there is one)

Post by: Virtuoso, Oct 13, 2008 in forum: Arts & Graphics
Post
Question help on a certain technique

ok, thanks, Misty and Wabba.^_^

EDIT
my 100th post! hooray!=DDD

Post by: Virtuoso, Oct 12, 2008 in forum: Help

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