Recent Content by Lunacy Divine

Final Form is a Drive Form. Meaning, I think it's possible that it's somewhat of an inner merge, so to speak, with Roxas.

I've always thought that Anti-Form was simply an accidental merging with the Heartless, since it's a Drive Form.

Sora isn't nearly as stupid as he is naive, although that might as well be considered as such. If I existed in the KHII game, I could probably control Sora simply by lying about Riku's whereabouts. Sora would be like, "Riku! Did you just say Riku?! Where? WHERE?!". But then again, I can directly control him with my PS2 controller. :/

That, I can't beat. In fact, I don't think that one can possibly be beaten at all. Sadly, a world like that would literally cause me to turn my back on the series, as much as I love it. That, and it also gave me a laugh there.

First of all, allow me to apologize for misunderstanding your intents at the beginning of this post. Your point was very different from what I thought you was getting that, and for that I'm most deeply sorry. Now, continuing on...

I understand where you're getting with the Nobodies' "memes", and I must say I never thought of it that way, and that very could be the likely reason for their personalities; however I still believe that the Nobodies' need for a heart derived from their instinct, as even the un-human Nobodies seem to instinctively go for the same goal.

Now, for the 'good and evil' part. As you said, evil is perception in the minds of the characters in KH. Though the basic definition of evil is probably perspective, allow me to delve into a few deeper aspects of the term. From society's general perspective, every 'evil trait' is usually traced back to (or caused by) the emotion known as hatred, meaning essentially that evil itself is usually simply hatred; from society's view of course. If you think about it, you may be surprised to find that that statement actually holds true to a certain extent. Hatred really causes everything and anything society considers as 'evil', with the exception of maybe theft, although that's a subject of debate and isn't always considered evil even from society's general views. But, moving on. Although Sora himself may even seem evil for being angry and destroying Heartless and Nobodies and whatnot, he really didn't have true hatred against anyon- from the cosmology of the KH universe. We all know of the hatred Xehanort's Heartless and even Riku had, but by that logic, I would have to consider Riku evil as well, and he obviously isn't from the game's storyline. So, you're right that Darkness can also be used for 'good' as Riku explained, but from his conversations with Mickey in Re:CoM and KHII, it can actually be argued that Riku had the majority of Light within his heart, even though he was still a 'Dark user' physically. I personally think that it may just simply be his own innate abilities, or perhaps his mastery of it from when he first started using it in KHI. Now, I'm not saying that when someone has hatred it means that they're automatically evil, it would mean that they simply have an amount of evil within them, if only the slightest, such as Ansem the Wise. But by that logic, everyone would have a certain amount of good and evil within them, which seems to correspond with Light and Darkness. And as an added note, I think that the KH games seem to view evil the same way any other game and typical society views as evil, and because of that, it isn't merely a matter of perspective. But if we hold that to be true, evil and good in the KH universe are based on the mentality of someone, not their deeds. But this really isn't such a distortion from society, as society views evil as hatred, which is solely mentality, not the deeds. I think that the message KH is trying to get across is that we should look at the way person feels or their mentality on the matter instead of what they actually do. Basically, what I'm saying is, there are three main reasons why I think Darkness and Light should correspond to good and evil:

1.) One of the definitions of 'darkness' is evil, so you shouldn't be too surprised at the obvious comparison between the two; as they're synonyms of one another in real-life, and...
2.) Because society's views on evil all trace back to hatred, which is a trait of Darkness in the KH cosmology. And finally...
3.) The statement Mickey made about both Dark and Light existing within a person corresponds directly to the duality theory of good and evil in real-life, and this duality theory in turn is under the assumption that hatred is evil, and good is just the opposite of that, such as kindness or love.

This is why I think the two correspond, and it isn't so wrong for anyone to think that they actually do; such as myself. I'm not asking you to agree with me, just to understand where I'm coming from in this situation. But then again, there are many opinions on what evil really is; and because of that we don't call it 'perspective' for no reason. :P

And so, Light and Darkness in the KH universe seems to be derived from the emotions and mentality of a person, not of one's deeds. Although Sora probably and more than likely viewed the Nobodies as 'evil' (or he may not have, considering that he knows of the Nobodies' alignment of 'nothingness'), Sora isn't the brightest guy in the world, and in the KH universe Nobodies still wouldn't be evil IF we assume that evil is Darkness (this assumption is currently being debated) and that true alignment is one's mentality, not actions (and this assumption is probably quite likely to be true). Basically, I'm not saying that Darkness is evil, but more of a vice-versa; that evil is Darkness. Riku and Ansem the Wise had it, but they weren't consumed by it because they also had an upstanding amount of Light within them as well.

Now, just so you know, this post isn't aiming to contradict your post, it's simply aiming for you to at least understand where I'm coming from. Because of the way society typically views evil, you and I were probably raised the same way to know evil as such (I know I was), and all of that 'evil stuff' really traces back to the emotion known as hatred. And because hatred is quite obviously a trait of Darkness, it isn't so wrong to assume that both of such are the same. I'm not going about this from any character's point-of-view, but simply from the perspective of the game itself. I don't think Nomura intended to complicate things, I think he intended to show us that we should know a person's mentality and what they feel, rather than judging them by what they do.

By the way, I agree with you that this is a good debate. I don't think I've ever had a Kingdom Hearts debate quite like this one.

Okay, first off, when I say the word 'evil', I'm not going from my perspective; simply the games' perspective. Our own perspective of good and evil doesn't apply, just our logic of what the games percieve it as. So, every time I say 'evil' in this post, don't think of the way I percieve it, think of the way KH percieves it.

Actually, a soul in Kingdom Hearts cosmology represents life, nothing else. Hearts are emotions, as we all know, and the only logical explanation I can think of for these "personalities" are the Nobody's own intellectual methods.

I agree with you about Xemnas wanting a heart for the darker emotions that Xehanort had (as Xemnas seems to be pro-Darkness and anti-Light when speaking of them during the final boss battle), but it's a fact that he couldn't feel any emotions himself, and I really don't think that he had any other motives other than getting a heart and becoming whole again. Yes, he used and manipulated everyone, but in the end it was only to regain his heart. Xemnas has a very different personality than that of "Ansem", Xehanort's Heartless. And this may very well be because he simply lacks the dark emotions (such as hatred, anger, etc.) that Xehanort's Heartless had.

You're making it out as if Darkness is a power and those who use it become corrupted by the power, which isn't true. Last time I checked, Darkness was the negative emotions in the KH universe, as Xehanort's Heartless believed that Darkness is the heart's true essence and the fact that Darkness can actually corrupt worlds as well. The very reason that people are corrupted by Darkness is because of its corruptive nature and the emotions it causes a person to have, which is evil from KH's perspective. Furthermore, the emotional traits of Darkness would be perceived as evil by the games. Yes, everyone has these traits, but the traits in their sole entirety (in other words, not having any Light to balance them off) represent evil in many perspectives. And I wasn't trying to say that Nobodies can't use Darkness, just that they can't control it like an "elemental affinity" of sorts, such as Riku could. And even though Heartless only relied on a mindless instinct function, technically they are evil, for the reasons I stated above. In fact, they're the embodiment of dark emotions, which would essentially make them evil. The reason Sora and Xehanort's Heartless were exceptions was because they actually managed to retain themselves and their minds even after becoming a Heartless, as Axel stated in Re:CoM.

1. As I stated earlier, that's the very reason why no one is pure good or pure evil. The balance between Darkness and Light.
2. Riku was referring to his Dark powers from the Darkness within his own heart. Since Riku seemed to use the Light within his heart to suppress the Darkness as Mickey told him, he can use the power of Darkness without being corrupted by it.
3. Again, that's the powers of Darkness, and that was also a reference to the Dark Realm.

As far as I'm concerned, Dark and Light- in the KH universe- are evil and good, respectively. Darkness is the negative emotions that corrupts hearts. Light was also referred to by Sora as if it was 'good', in essence. Mickey telling Riku that he's 'not in the Darkness anymore' was a clear reference to Riku's redemption. Every other time the two are referred to, it's as if they're good and evil, and they are in fact.

No, I'm simply applying my own logic to the facts of the KH universe. Darkness is the emotions anyone would consider evil, such as rage, hatred, etc. Light is all of the kind emotions. Since Xemnas had none of those emotions, he was neither good nor evil. Even if he was 'evil waiting to happen', he still wasn't evil by the standards of the Kingdom Hearts universe as long as he remained as a Nobody.

Those are technically emotions. Any kind of greed or thirst for power is clearly an emotion. Even being a sadist and 'enjoying' others being in pain, as you define it, is an emotion. Marluxia was out to get a heart; and obviously he didn't prefer Xemnas' method, and wanted to use the Organization members for his own method to gain a heart for himself, it's the entire reason why he chose to take over the Organization. Larxene and Saix just used their own logical methods to 'side' whoever they wanted to side with and did whatever they felt was necessary. Demyx prefered not to fight, and his "fear" was obviously an act, as that's an emotion. I'm not saying that this claim of yours is impossible, but if I actually was to accept that it is possible, I'd also have to accept that it's possible that the official cosmology of the games is flawed.

That's true, but according to the games, a person's alignment matters solely on their thoughts, emotions, intents; overall simply their mentality.

I've already stated numerous times that their actions are, or can be, considered evil, but they themselves- according to mentality- aren't. It's that simple.

Again, I'm not trying to justify them in any way, and of course I wouldn't stand by, and neither would anyone else. The point I'm trying to make is the simple fact that they were neither good nor evil. Or rather, neither Light or Dark (I know that every whole being has both within them, I'm referring to the majority). And I know that their methods were clearly wrong, as I've already stated that several times. Their desire for hearts could have been for whatever emotions they desired, and thus the goals are considered neutral. Furthermore, their very "existence" caused imbalance to the worlds, as Riku stated. I agree with you on this. The only point I'm trying to make is that since they had no emotion, the "emotions" we saw them display were either derived from their own intellectual methods and/or simply acts. Which leads me to believe that they only relied on their instinct to become whole again. Still, I would define Nobodies more as antagonists rather than villains.

Furthermore, since Darkness and Light are also synonyms (and also the very definitions) for evil and good, and from the way they're expressed in the games, I think good and evil is exactly what Nomura intended for Light and Darkness to be, arguably. Many define evil as perception, but that's not the case in the games, as we have to go by the games' perception of good and evil. We simply have to go by KH's definition in this one, which correlates directly with Light and Darkness. And don't forget the fact that they're synonyms and direct definitions of one another in the mental sense. Most likely Light and Darkness are good and evil, not by our perception, but the games' perception. If you think I'm defining 'evil' here as something purely evil without any good, then you would be correct, and Darkness wouldn't be evil.

Don't patronize me. Ever heard of "human instinct"? While not the same as pure instinct, it's still instinct regardless. And why shouldn't humans have instinct? Arguing that humans have no instinct is arguing with biology itself. All mammals have it.

Even by assuming that instinct isn't reflex and that humans do not have instinct, Nobodies actually are born with the instinct to become whole again. Take the distorted, un-human Nobodies for example, like Dusks. It's a matter of fact that they automatically strive to become whole again, and is that learned? No, it isn't. It's instinct.

Wrong.

Instinct- a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency.

That's all instinct is. Everyone has instinct to a certain extent, even human beings. My argument was that instinct is the only thing that drives a Nobody to do what it does. Unlike Heartless, however, who rely only on instinct, Nobodies combine instinct with their own logical methods; since they actually have minds and can think. Thus, that explains the reason for their so-called "personalities".

No, I'm pretty sure you're the one pointing fingers at everyone trying to "justify" Nobodies, you even said that yourself. Which, in essence, is very annoying; because I don't recall anyone trying to justify or romanticize the Nobodies. We were stating the facts, of which your own opinions stray from. Now, I agree with you that Sora isn't a serial killer, but claiming anything of us trying to justify Nobodies as good guys and Sora as the bad guy is annoying, because I don't recall anyone stating that.

No it isn't, it's following the instinct that all Nobodies are essentially born with (only exceptions are Nobodies with hearts, as I stated in my previous post). As soon as a Nobody is born, it strives to become whole again. That's the way it works. They weren't taking any side. Even with Marluxia betraying Xemnas, he still aimed at his instinct of getting a heart for himself, and that still isn't taking any side, in terms of good and evil.

So, you would define evil as doing "evil things", but the destructive emotions that cause them aren't evil? That's just bad logic. Regardless of how wrong you are, Darkness is evil in Kingdom Hearts cosmology. Actually, Dark is evil in any literal sense; if you don't believe me, look it up. The Light within every person is the only thing that can prevent a person from being purely evil. Xehanort became a Heartless and was thus devoid of all Light, making him purely evil.

That's not where I'm getting at. Being evil or good is the majority of which ever a person has within them. I wasn't talking about pure good or pure evil, the only "pure" being we've ever seen was Xehanort's Heartless.

I don't ever recall Xemnas having any vengeance on his mind. He had no emotions, period. He even stated that himself. Stop arguing with the facts.

Furthermore, the entire reason Xemnas had his 'ideals' and used the Organization was his own method of getting help to acquire a heart for himself. That still applies to his instinct.

Again, Marluxia's betrayal was simply another method to gain a heart, he didn't prefer Xemnas' method. And no, Nobodies do not have personalities, as that would require emotions.

No, they were nonexistent beings driven by the instinct to become whole again, that's it. Their "personalities" are actually a combination of their own intellect and methods. The only thing Nobodies are are essentially brains and brawn. Go by the games, and that's a fact.

Which is basically the only instinct Nobodies have.

I'm not saying they are bad. I'm saying that they're neither, just as the game itself implies. They're not light or dark; simply "Nothingness".

Since they're essentially living corpses, they probably can bleed, though that isn't necessarily a fact. Truthfully, it isn't known. But even if they can bleed, I don't see how that relates to the plot.

They're not crazy. Don't have the emotions to be.

You're very annoying.

For one thing, many of us have already said several times that we're not trying to justify or romanticize the Organization for being "good" in any way, because they're not. We're simply going by what the game itself states, and it's a shame that you can't comprehend that.

... Wow.

You should have read the previous posts before making such a false statement. For the thousandth time, even though they did things that would be considered dark and evil from Sora's perspective, they themselves weren't evil at all. In a Nobody's situation, the ends justify the means. Doing things that are considered evil do not necessarily make the person themselves evil, and it's the same with Nobodies. Even though their methods may be considered evil, their goals are neither evil nor good; the goals are all merely a natural instinct to become whole again; and that fits perfectly with a Nobody's alignment of Nothingness. If you actually pay attention to what the game and the guides themselves say, you would know that they aren't good nor evil; they lack the emotions to even possess or feel light emotions or dark emotions. Hell, even Nomura himself has stated that. Granted, they aren't neutral either, if you mean neutral by 'in between'. They're not good, evil, or even in between the two. They're nothing, and they don't exist. Furthermore, they don't even have any other choice in the matter but to gain a heart for themselves, and do whatever is necessary for it. They were all born with that extinct, and the only exceptions to that would be Nobodies with hearts, such as Roxas.

Allow me to explain things:

Good (Light) ----- Nothingness ----- Evil (Darkness)

As stated by Nomura and the game itself, there are three alignments: Light, Dark, and Nothingness. And as Nomura has also stated, the Nobodies are clearly in the "Nothingness" area. And if you even begin to confuse that with evil, you're clearly a lost cause and you're very illogical.

A bit more understanding? They don't exist, there isn't any understanding to have. And they do not understand what it feels like to lose everything, because they have no feeling.

As far as I'm concerned, Sora did the right thing by not sympathising any with them. If he did, it would be like feeling sorry for thin air.